Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Polling Pit
| | |-+  The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?

Poll

The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?

Limited Government Libertarian
- 75 (28.3%)
Minarchist
- 50 (18.9%)
Free Market Retributionist
- 33 (12.5%)
Free Market Reparationist
- 45 (17%)
Self Defense Libertarian
- 35 (13.2%)
Pacifist
- 9 (3.4%)
None of the Above
- 18 (6.8%)

Total Members Voted: 81


Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 15   Go Down

Author Topic: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?  (Read 62481 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mbd

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2006, 12:56:34 PM »

The state cannot raise a military or pay people to be ambassadors to foreign nations without taxation.

Can you afford a house in England that you won't need after your stint as ambassador is up? can you afford it anyways? Can a well-armed militia be raised to take part in WWI? WWII? Whatever the causes of those wars, us being in them was a non-choice. Mexico was in cahoots with Nazi Germany and the Japs decided attacking us first was the best way to try and stop our trade embargo with them (among other reasons, IIRC).

As long as it is clear and well defined what the government can and cannot tax for - the building and maintaining of post roads and roads to connect the bases, the raising of a well-armed and trained army, etc. - and the American people are willing to FIGHT to keep it that way, it shouldn't be seen as a violation of rights. These are absolutely necessary to the functions of a government, and you cannot deal with other governments on equal footing without ambassadors and statesmen to deal with them. You cannot deal with them on equal footing without a standing army. We would have lost WWI and WWII without our military-industrial complex. Yes, I want Constitutionally limited taxes, not because I like having parts of my check taken away, but because I like being well defended in my homeland.

You just like opening stuff up, don't you? Can of worms? Pandora's box? Six-pack of raining blows? :-)
Logged

mbd

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2006, 12:58:48 PM »

certain humans will always seek to deprive others of property, liberty or life, if it benefits them.  They don't need a state to do it and it is this state of man which prompts the 'neccessary evil' of government.

Nor can the state prevent this.
Logged

Ria

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2006, 01:43:05 PM »

certain humans will always seek to deprive others of property, liberty or life, if it benefits them.  They don't need a state to do it and it is this state of man which prompts the 'neccessary evil' of government.

Nor can the state prevent this.

I agree, the state cannot prevent all crimes against anothers rights; however, if there is no state then who will execute punishment? And if punishinments are given, who will determine whether those punishments are not excessive and that the person was given a fair "trial"?
Logged

mbd

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2006, 01:46:13 PM »

See other discussions here regarding Dispute Resolution Organizations, or DRO's.

I personally think the court system is far from the worst thing we have to worry about with the state. It's one of the most basic functions of government.
Logged

MobileDigit

  • Final Heuristic
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3821
  • You will see I end discussions with my wisdom!
    • View Profile
    • Aeokos.org
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2006, 01:48:00 PM »

I agree, the state cannot prevent all crimes against anothers rights; however, if there is no state then who will execute punishment?

The purpose of justice is not to punish the transgressor, it is to make the victim whole.

And if punishinments are given, who will determine whether those punishments are not excessive and that the person was given a fair "trial"?

Arbitrators will gain a reputation for being a fair.

I personally think the court system is far from the worst thing we have to worry about with the state. It's one of the most basic functions of government.

It's also one of the easiest to replace.
Logged
I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

Ria

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2006, 02:19:02 PM »

I agree, the state cannot prevent all crimes against anothers rights; however, if there is no state then who will execute punishment?

The purpose of justice is not to punish the transgressor, it is to make the victim whole.

And if punishinments are given, who will determine whether those punishments are not excessive and that the person was given a fair "trial"?

Arbitrators will gain a reputation for being a fair.

I personally think the court system is far from the worst thing we have to worry about with the state. It's one of the most basic functions of government.

It's also one of the easiest to replace.

Putting a person to death makes them whole?  I deal with Arbitrators all the time....rarely are they fair. Personal opinon though.
Logged

MobileDigit

  • Final Heuristic
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3821
  • You will see I end discussions with my wisdom!
    • View Profile
    • Aeokos.org
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2006, 02:26:06 PM »

Putting a person to death makes them whole?

No.

I deal with Arbitrators all the time....rarely are they fair.

And there is not much competition.
Logged
I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

mbd

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2006, 02:35:23 PM »

It's also one of the easiest to replace.

I disagree. Social Security, the Park System, Dept of Education, etc. There are endless bureacracies as costly and/or intrusive or more so, that could be replaced with things people are already familiar with, e.g. private schools, private parks, private retirement plans ... that already exist.
Logged

MobileDigit

  • Final Heuristic
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3821
  • You will see I end discussions with my wisdom!
    • View Profile
    • Aeokos.org
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #143 on: June 12, 2006, 02:44:06 PM »

It's also one of the easiest to replace.

I disagree. Social Security, the Park System, Dept of Education, etc. There are endless bureacracies as costly and/or intrusive or more so, that could be replaced with things people are already familiar with, e.g. private schools, private parks, private retirement plans ... that already exist.


You're right, I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, governments courts are by no means sacred, and should be replaced by voluntary institutions.
Logged
I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

Ria

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #144 on: June 12, 2006, 02:49:09 PM »

For sometime the government tried to sell the idea that the jails were used to rehabilitate the criminals. Unfortunately, the justice system is more about punishment and retribution then rehabilitating. If the true intent of the government was to help these individuals become "whole" then there would be a lot more therapy and classes within the institutions to fascilitate it and sentencing someone to death before attempting rehabilitation would not make sense.

Nothing like sitting in a tiny cell all day going nuts and waiting to get gang raped to fix your mental issues.....
Logged

mbd

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #145 on: June 12, 2006, 02:51:39 PM »

For sometime the government tried to sell the idea that the jails were used to rehabilitate the criminals. Unfortunately, the justice system is more about punishment and retribution then rehabilitating. If the true intent of the government was to help these individuals become "whole" then there would be a lot more therapy and classes within the institutions to fascilitate it and sentencing someone to death before attempting rehabilitation would not make sense.

Nothing like sitting in a tiny cell all day going nuts and waiting to get gang raped to fix your mental issues.....

And the problem would be cut in half if the drug war would end.
Logged

MobileDigit

  • Final Heuristic
  • FTL Creative Team
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3821
  • You will see I end discussions with my wisdom!
    • View Profile
    • Aeokos.org
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #146 on: June 12, 2006, 03:08:05 PM »

Ria, the purpose of justice is to make the victim whole, not the criminal.
Logged
I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

Highlander

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #147 on: June 12, 2006, 03:16:31 PM »

Quote from: MobileDigit on Today at 12:52:53 PM
If humans are rational, then "governence" need not be with force, but can instead be with incentives.

That's a big 'if'.  Humans are definately reasoning creatures, it is a hallmark of intelligence and what seperates us from the rest of organic life.  But what do you mean by 'rational'?  Many, many people are screwed up, damaged goods who don't always act with the rights of others in mind.  Marxism is a rational doctrine builit upon false premises.  Our premises are the rub and human history does not comment well upon most people's ability to think from sound principles.  Heck, many people are dimly aware they have premises in the first place!

As for incentives, I think the threat of force is quite an incentive!  Seriously, though, what kind of incentives do you refer?

Quote from: Highlander
I'm with you on the principles, but it seems reality and history say certain humans will always seek to deprive others of property, liberty or life, if it benefits them.
Quote from: MobileDigit
Abstractly, it is absurd to use the past to predict the future for things that have free will.

My quote does not comment upon the future, except the logical inference that, given human nature over all of human history, there is no logical reason to think it will change now or at all.

Quote from: MobileDigit
Only by starting with axioms and using deduction can you find the truth.

Axiomatic reasoning is indeed an excellent tool to arrive at almost certain truths, but has limits and cannot lead anyone to a Grand Unifying Truth!

Quote from: MobileDigit
Practically, it is absurd to believe that there must be only one monopolistic security force.
Quote from: Bastiat, The Law
The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all.
Quote from: MobileDigit
Logically, the common force cannot aquire a right I have not given it, nor can it force me to pay for something I do not want.

Forgive me for imprecision, but by 'common force' I don't not intend to suggest 'only one' monopolistic force.  Understand that common force is only moral because the collective is made up of individuals.  I say that if I have the right to defend my natural rights (however derived or labeled) with force,  there does exist a collective right to force, but only in the defense of those rights.

Also understand that I do think a standing army violates the above principles and we'd be better organized by member state militias, which would be best organized by county level militias, which all agree to submit to national authority depending on the local take of the threat to the nation.  Kind of like the way utility companies all have cooperative agreements to recover from national calamities.

Quote from: Highlander
As for your issue of not forcing you to pay, I do wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment, but the structure needed for collective force (eg, Armed Forces, Police) has to be financed somehow.
Quote from: MobileDigit
Why do you believe it must be supported with force? If it is something people desire, why do you believe they won't pay for it?

You make a fine point, so let me ask you.  Suppose we have common defense and justice systems financed by voluntary contributions from individuals, corporations and local governments.  You are now no longer forced to pay for something you do not want (central defense from foreign or domestic looters).  No, you prefer to hire your own private security for local looters and think the anarcho-capitalist ambassador businessman will protect our collective interests abroad.

Informed persons in global commerce learn of an invasion plan by the authoritarian People's Republic of Whereizitstan, run by a die hard click of international Scientologists who cannot abide such a prosperous existance for their mortal Thetan enemies and are deterimined to conquer your land and put your prosperity to use in the name of L Ron!  The militias you have not supported over the years are put on high alert.  You live in a border state and the PRW army has massed on your border.  Cooperative units from other federal states form under Federal Rules of Martial Unity and mass in your state on your border to repel the massing army.  After a month long stand off and few minor skirmishes, the PRW finds the whole proposition too expensive and withdraws.

The massed PRW army is incontestable proof a threat to your life, liberty and/or property.  The massed forces protected your lands.

Now the question:  Do 'we' have a right to bill you for services rendered, since you didn't buy into the plan before the crises?

Quote from: Highlander on Today at 11:57:17 AM
So how does your ideal deal with threats such as these?
Quote from: MobileDigit
People will pay for it. And because of the competition inherent in a free market, it will be much more efficient and cheaper than a state army. As well, I point you to an article by Dr. Pogo (of http://antistate.com).

No offense to Dr. Pogo, but I think some of it contains faulty premises based on ideals rather than reality.
Quote from: Dr. Pogo
Because we the anarchists aren't being led by a four star general of any kind, we can present as many fronts, strategies, and methods of attack as we can think of. The possible costs are as numerous as the very population itself: it's a free market of warfare.
What exactly does this look like in reality?  How is it organized?  Who is in charge?  How do we handle the would be 'warlord'? This ideal you present very much looks like a feudal society!  How do we insure justice for the weak from the strong?  Are they not entitled to the same rights as the capable?  Are they allowed to voluntarily colletivize for their own defense?  How about in the areas they live?  Can they colletively hire a security force for the territories in which the collective own?  Can they elect a private board to manage the roads and personnel hired by collective contribution?  If they do this, they self-govern and the apparatus to do so collectively is a state, is it not?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 10:42:52 PM by Highlander »
Logged

Highlander

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #148 on: June 12, 2006, 03:18:34 PM »

certain humans will always seek to deprive others of property, liberty or life, if it benefits them.  They don't need a state to do it and it is this state of man which prompts the 'neccessary evil' of government.

Nor can the state prevent this.
I think it can, if properly structured, mitigate it.  I don't think I'm arguing a limited state because of prevention, rather as a deterance.
Logged

Highlander

  • Guest
Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #149 on: June 12, 2006, 03:20:17 PM »

For sometime the government tried to sell the idea that the jails were used to rehabilitate the criminals. Unfortunately, the justice system is more about punishment and retribution then rehabilitating. If the true intent of the government was to help these individuals become "whole" then there would be a lot more therapy and classes within the institutions to fascilitate it and sentencing someone to death before attempting rehabilitation would not make sense.

Nothing like sitting in a tiny cell all day going nuts and waiting to get gang raped to fix your mental issues.....

And the problem would be cut in half if the drug war would end.

You got that right!
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 ... 15   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Polling Pit
| | |-+  The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?

// ]]>

Page created in 0.022 seconds with 37 queries.