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The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?

Limited Government Libertarian
- 75 (28.3%)
Minarchist
- 50 (18.9%)
Free Market Retributionist
- 33 (12.5%)
Free Market Reparationist
- 45 (17%)
Self Defense Libertarian
- 35 (13.2%)
Pacifist
- 9 (3.4%)
None of the Above
- 18 (6.8%)

Total Members Voted: 81


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Author Topic: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?  (Read 62475 times)

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francisckrs

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #120 on: April 16, 2006, 12:24:17 PM »

ahhh lol
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ejmarten

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #121 on: April 24, 2006, 02:11:29 PM »

Free market retributionist.  I truly believe that in a Libertarian society there would be far less violent crime.  It's hard to imagine a society where "victimless crimes" go unpunished, but there would be a far less opressive justice system either way.  There still needs to be a way to deal with the violent sociopaths that threaten private property and threaten physical harm on others.
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YixilTesiphon

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2006, 11:29:04 PM »

Minarchism as a temporary measure - let's cut one government program at a time (well, the really noxious ones can all go at once) until we can't agree on any more ways that the free market could take care of it. In other words, cut the government down to 1787 levels minus the postal service and see what happens from there.
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JNagyJr

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2006, 11:23:38 PM »

Minarchism as a temporary measure - let's cut one government program at a time (well, the really noxious ones can all go at once) until we can't agree on any more ways that the free market could take care of it. In other words, cut the government down to 1787 levels minus the postal service and see what happens from there.

Since the postal service wasn't in existance then, I imagine you're willing to keep it? All the Constitution requires of the government is to build and maintain post roads. ;)
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Highlander

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2006, 02:28:09 PM »

Of the categories posted, I am definitely a free-market retributionist, but that's a hell of a mouthful. Anarcho-capitalist is much more to the point.

Minarchist

Until it's proven to me to be otherwise this is the least intrusive, yet functional, system available.

How do you know anarcho-capitalism is not functional? How do you define functional?

I would say it is functional, but it seems to me it would closely resemble feudalism.  Bastiat's "The Law" gives a good account why minanarchism or LGL is best suited for reality.  The 'less violent' libertarian theories seem to me a bit utopian, if the history of humanity is any guide.
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TackleTheWorld

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2006, 05:59:53 PM »

Quote from: rabidfurby
How do you know anarcho-capitalism is not functional? How do you define functional?
I would say it is functional, but it seems to me it would closely resemble feudalism. Bastiat's "The Law" gives a good account why minanarchism or LGL is best suited for reality. The 'less violent' libertarian theories seem to me a bit utopian, if the history of humanity is any guide.

Ach Laddie;
If ye be thinkin' that humanity tends toward violence,
then ye'd best create no state at all.
Criminals are always a minority, but the State can grow big enou' to eat a grrrreat deal of it's population.
Soviet Union, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia...
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 06:45:12 PM by TackleTheWorld »
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Highlander

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2006, 06:14:27 PM »

Criminals are always a minority, but the State can grow big enou' to eat a grrrreat deal of it's population.
Soviet Union, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia...
I don't disagree with ya!  Hence the 'limited' part of 'LGL' and the 'min' part of 'minanarchist'!
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rabidfurby

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2006, 07:26:09 PM »

Criminals are always a minority, but the State can grow big enou' to eat a grrrreat deal of it's population.
Soviet Union, Maoist China, Pol Pot's Cambodia...
I don't disagree with ya!  Hence the 'limited' part of 'LGL' and the 'min' part of 'minanarchist'!

Just by existing, the state violates rights, no matter how "limited" it is. How can it then claim to protect rights?
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Highlander

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2006, 11:27:59 PM »

Just by existing, the state violates rights, no matter how "limited" it is. How can it then claim to protect rights?

Have you read "The Law" by Bastiat?
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JNagyJr

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2006, 12:27:49 AM »

Just by existing, the state violates rights, no matter how "limited" it is. How can it then claim to protect rights?

How so? I'd say New Hampshire, if you view it as a separate entity, is doing a very good job of protecting (and growing those protections) rights.

I'd say that at least for a while, we had statesmen Presidents who tried, in their way, to protect rights.
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MobileDigit

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2006, 06:23:42 AM »

Just by existing, the state violates rights, no matter how "limited" it is. How can it then claim to protect rights?

How so?

Taxation.
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JNagyJr

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2006, 07:44:38 AM »

The state cannot raise a military or pay people to be ambassadors to foreign nations without taxation.

Can you afford a house in England that you won't need after your stint as ambassador is up? can you afford it anyways? Can a well-armed militia be raised to take part in WWI? WWII? Whatever the causes of those wars, us being in them was a non-choice. Mexico was in cahoots with Nazi Germany and the Japs decided attacking us first was the best way to try and stop our trade embargo with them (among other reasons, IIRC).

As long as it is clear and well defined what the government can and cannot tax for - the building and maintaining of post roads and roads to connect the bases, the raising of a well-armed and trained army, etc. - and the American people are willing to FIGHT to keep it that way, it shouldn't be seen as a violation of rights. These are absolutely necessary to the functions of a government, and you cannot deal with other governments on equal footing without ambassadors and statesmen to deal with them. You cannot deal with them on equal footing without a standing army. We would have lost WWI and WWII without our military-industrial complex. Yes, I want Constitutionally limited taxes, not because I like having parts of my check taken away, but because I like being well defended in my homeland.
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MobileDigit

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2006, 08:09:05 AM »

The state cannot raise a military or pay people to be ambassadors to foreign nations without taxation.

The state cannot exist without taxation.


Can you afford a house in England that you won't need after your stint as ambassador is up? can you afford it anyways?

Ambassadors are needed for governments, and governments are not needed.


Can a well-armed militia be raised to take part in WWI? WWII?

If it can't, is it all right to steal money to do so? What makes you think that?


As long as it is clear and well defined what the government can and cannot tax for - the building and maintaining of post roads and roads to connect the bases, the raising of a well-armed and trained army, etc. - and the American people are willing to FIGHT to keep it that way, it shouldn't be seen as a violation of rights.

Theft is always a violation of rights, not matter what the thief does with the property, or whether a constitution said it was ok.


These are absolutely necessary to the functions of a government, and you cannot deal with other governments on equal footing without ambassadors and statesmen to deal with them.

Businesses have no trouble dealing with other businesses without using violence.


You cannot deal with them on equal footing without a standing army.

So government suddenly becomes efficient when it's fighting a war? Nonsense.


We would have lost WWI and WWII without our military-industrial complex.

We wouldn't have been in either if it wasn't for the military-industrial complex.


Yes, I want Constitutionally limited taxes, not because I like having parts of my check taken away, but because I like being well defended in my homeland.

Fine. You can give your money to whomever you like - just don't force me to as well!
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You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

Highlander

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #133 on: June 12, 2006, 11:57:17 AM »

MobileD,

Are humans equipped to live in peace without some kind of governance?  I'm with you on the principles, but it seems reality and history say certain humans will always seek to deprive others of property, liberty or life, if it benefits them.  They don't need a state to do it and it is this state of man which prompts the 'neccessary evil' of government.

Bastiat (whom I've referred above), noted in The Law:
Quote
If every person has the right to defend -- even by force -- his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly. Thus the principle of collective right -- its reason for existing, its lawfulness -- is based on individual right. And the common force that protects this collective right cannot logically have any other purpose or any other mission than that for which it acts as a substitute. Thus, since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common force -- for the same reason -- cannot lawfully be used to destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals or groups.

Such a perversion of force would be, in both cases, contrary to our premise. Force has been given to us to defend our own individual rights. Who will dare to say that force has been given to us to destroy the equal rights of our brothers? Since no individual acting separately can lawfully use force to destroy the rights of others, does it not logically follow that the same principle also applies to the common force that is nothing more than the organized combination of the individual forces?

If this is true, then nothing can be more evident than this: The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all.

If you haven't read it, you should.

As for your issue of not forcing you to pay, I do wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment, but the structure needed for collective force (eg, Armed Forces, Police) has to be financed somehow.  And because we live in a violent world, with nations and states that would gladly take the fruits of our labors grown in liberty (assuming your anarchist ideal), it follows that a collective defense must be able to deal with threats of external plunder.  So how does your ideal deal with threats such as these?  How useful is your freedom and desired ability to pay nothing for even the most minimal state possible if an army (one that has spent decades developing war machines to conquer your land and take your possessions and perhaps your liberty) is massed on your border?
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MobileDigit

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2006, 12:52:53 PM »

MobileD,

Call me Mobile.

Are humans equipped to live in peace without some kind of governance?

If humans are rational, then "governence" need not be with force, but can instead be with incentives.

I'm with you on the principles, but it seems reality and history say certain humans will always seek to deprive others of property, liberty or life, if it benefits them.

Abstractly, it is absurd to use the past to predict the future for things that have free will. Only by starting with axioms and using deduction can you find the truth.
Practically, it is absurd to believe that there must be only one monopolistic security force.

Quote from: Bastiat, The Law
The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all.

Logically, the common force cannot aquire a right I have not given it, nor can it force me to pay for something I do not want.

If you haven't read it, you should.

I have.

As for your issue of not forcing you to pay, I do wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment, but the structure needed for collective force (eg, Armed Forces, Police) has to be financed somehow.

Why do you believe it must be supported with force? If it is something people desire, why do you believe they won't pay for it?

So how does your ideal deal with threats such as these?

People will pay for it. And because of the competition inherent in a free market, it will be much more efficient and cheaper than a state army. As well, I point you to an article by Dr. Pogo (of http://antistate.com).
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I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t
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