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The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?

Limited Government Libertarian
- 75 (28.3%)
Minarchist
- 50 (18.9%)
Free Market Retributionist
- 33 (12.5%)
Free Market Reparationist
- 45 (17%)
Self Defense Libertarian
- 35 (13.2%)
Pacifist
- 9 (3.4%)
None of the Above
- 18 (6.8%)

Total Members Voted: 81


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Author Topic: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?  (Read 55488 times)

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Wille

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2006, 10:53:47 AM »

I'm missing two types:
"Crackpot conspiracy-theorist" and "M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E-K-E-T-E-E-R" :)

Ok, maybe not libertarian-types, but nonetheless featured on the show at times..
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BugEyedBeast

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2006, 12:28:38 PM »

In between reading the author's catagories and my first reply I've listened to the Friday show. 

Going with the pet murder example given during the show I'll explain why I think levels lower than Miniarchist would not be fuctional.  At the individual level you can choose to be any or none of these.  I approach this as how each classification would work if it was the social order in a given place.

The Pacifist would go through a lot of cats.  Their nonviolence encourages violence in this example as the violent members of society would go unchecked. 

Self Defense Libertarians would be little better unless the person chose to murder the cat while the SDL'er was home.  Once the cat is murdered (a process easily completed before the SDL'er can retrieve a weapon to defend his property - the cat) it seems all all the offender need do is step off the property.

The Free-Market Reparationists would go through a lot of cats.  Perhaps even more than the Pacifists and Self Defense Libertarians as they would have means (the reparation) to buy more. 

A Minarchist would want to be compensated for the economic value of the cat, if any, and have the person punished for their behavior. I happen to believe the threat of punishment is a deterrent, you may not.  A Retributionist would want the person punished as well, but that leads us down the private law path.  As I think Ian mentioned the cat may be priceless to you.  Under a Reparationist, Self Defense or Pacifist system I - and anyone else who doesn't subscribe those principles - am encouraged to apply my own justice.  There's no deterrent against future cat mudering if current cat muderers are not punished.  And yes, I have an innate feeling people should be punished for their crimes as well.  You can ostracize me all you wish and call me a beast, but if your system allows people to murder my cat I'm not going to much care if the people under that philosophy ostracize me from dawn to dusk.  After all, once we're done fighting in the street I'll still have the cat murderer to conduct business with - for won't he too be ostracized?

While the Minarchist government's punishment may not be perfect it is a defense against vigilantism.  One might say private law is little more than contracted vigilantism.  To give a real life example of why I'm so opposed to this concept of private law consider the Pinkerton men.  (what's a post without a wiki link?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_National_Detective_Agency)  If you don't like current police you sure wouldn't have liked the Pinks.  Yet that's private law.  Oh, but that was a long time ago.  Hmm, how about an updated version? http://mediafilter.org/Images/CAQ/PcopsSRC1.jpg  He, or the private company's advertising copy, look any more friendly than government cops? 

The Limited-Government Libertarians, as described in the list, was too open ended for me to choose. 
 
--BEB
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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2006, 12:44:52 PM »

One might say private law is little more than contracted vigilantism.

In that case, one might say that self-defense is vigilantism, or that Government is infact just vigilantism.
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BugEyedBeast

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2006, 01:13:04 PM »

In that case, one might say that self-defense is vigilantism, or that Government is infact just vigilantism.

Interesting points.  How I see it:

With vigilantism a new round of force is applied without due process.  Do we agree on that definition?  We're starting with a word that people have struggled to define, but for the purposes of this discussion will that work?  I'm perfectly willing to revise if we disagree there.

Self-defense is not the initation of force; it is the reaction to force currently occurring.  It could be argued is not force conducted without due process as it is clear at the time of an attack who the attacker is, even if their identity is not known.  In this I am talking about defending yourself, not using force and claiming it was in self-defense.  That could be vigilantism.  Short of misusing the term to defend yourself from legal or social pressure I cannot stretch self-defense into vigilantism.

With Government you again have due process under the set laws.  I suppose you could even limit your government to only be reactive to force, but I'm not of the opinion you need to go that far to avoid government being a vigilante system. Like before, if your rights are being violated then it could be. 

--BEB
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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2006, 01:22:37 PM »

With vigilantism a new round of force is applied without due process.  Do we agree on that definition?

'Due process' is doublespeak for 'whatever the hell we want'.


Self-defense is not the initation of force; it is the reaction to force currently occurring.
Then clearly a Protection Agency would not be vigilantism.
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You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

BugEyedBeast

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2006, 01:49:27 PM »

'Due process' is doublespeak for 'whatever the hell we want'.

Without going into whether it'd still be doublespeak in a government free system where private arbitrators are providing the process, I'll point out that I did make a distinction if your rights are being violated, which "whatever the hell we want" would be a case of.

Then clearly a Protection Agency would not be vigilantism.

Clearly a Protection Agency should not be. 
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Brandon

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2006, 01:56:09 PM »

In every way but practical application I fall into the Rothbard catagory.

For our purposes, I am a minarchist.
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gavino

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2006, 02:33:51 PM »

Question for the Free-Market Reparationists (like Ian):

"Spanky" has gone off his rocker.  He's decided it would be fun to load a revolver with one bullet, then walk up behind somebody, spin the chamber, point the gun at them, and pull the trigger once.  Assume he does this when there's nobody else around to shoot him before he shoots you.

If the bullet doesn't fire, has he committed a crime?  Is it OK to take away his gun by force?

I'd say yes (attempted murder) and hell yeah!  Pacifists and Reparationists, it seems to me, would have no moral justification for stopping Spanky-- after all, if the bullet doesn't fire, there's no harm done.

I think there's a good argument to be made if you're a Retributionist that Spanky's behavior should be punished-- that it's OK to take his gun away from him, because it's pretty darn likely he's gonna kill you or somebody else soon.

Yeah, yeah, involuntary Russian Roulette is a contrived example (although lots of people are convicted of attempted murder).  But there are plenty of other things that Spanky can do that puts your life at risk (experimenting with high explosives in the apartment downstairs from you, driving drunk).

And yeah, it's a slippery slope-- some people believe second-hand cigarette smoke is a risk to their lives.  But I think it is possible to design a system of laws/government that both maximizes liberty and keeps us reasonably safe.
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Brandon

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2006, 05:49:33 PM »

I suppose that one could call it a balancing act, although I'm not sure that that is a proper illustration because the goal isn't to balance government and liberty, but rather to have as little government as possible while maximizing liberty.

I suggest that Roads, a Justice System, a Navy, an Airforce and perhaps some type of system for regulating air travel would be in order. I advocate these soley because I cannot fathom a freemarket approach to these. However, simply because this undergraduate cannot think of one, doesn't mean that someone else won't.

However, even if the government were limited to those areas, the society, the political realm, and our economy would be better off. All in all, this is me saying, "we need as little government as possible." 
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Evil Muppet

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2006, 07:36:03 PM »

This Roy Halliday is a bit off.  I would lean towards the christian libertarian pacifist position.  Now I just have to get that anger under control. 

First, I have no idea who this Robert LeFarve is.  I have never heard the name before and had to look it up.  There are several individuals in this tradition such as Leo Tolstoi, David Henry Thoreau who articulated a pacifist-anarchist position. 

Maybe this is something Roy didn't make clear but the position is that you do not respond to evil with evil.  It isn't non-resistence but non-violent resistence to evil. 
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ladyattis

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2006, 08:35:40 PM »

<-- Minarchist. :shock: And Who is John Galt? :P

-- Bridget
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Driven

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2006, 08:36:00 PM »

I'm the 7th kind.  I am the individualist libertarian who doesn't see everything as fitting into 1 of 6 categories.
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Jiperly

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2006, 08:47:58 PM »

I'm the 7th kind.  I am the individualist libertarian who doesn't see everything as fitting into 1 of 6 categories.

Ditto(Moreso this ammount of Philosophical debate is too much for me to understand, but also ditto)
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mikehz

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2006, 08:51:45 PM »

"The limited-government libertarians have the same view of violence as the minarchists, except that the limited-government libertarians believe the government needs to provide more functions and has to forcefully interfere in the lives of peaceful people more than the minarchists believe is necessary."

I think there is a little bit of misrepresentation here. Limited government does not mean that the government has any right to forcefully interfere in any peaceful person's life. In a limited government society, you have the right to ignore the government, even to the point of not paying into it if you don't want to.

Also, not all limited government libertarians are the same. Unlike Mr. Manwich, I don't hold much with the government owning roads, any more than with the government owning parking lots.
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Brandon

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Re: The 6 types of Libertarians, which are you?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2006, 09:36:47 PM »

C'mon driven, no one thinks the catagories are perfect. That is why we are discussing them. But don't create your own catagory.

The catagories are for the most part "good." nor do they leave anyone out.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 10:11:01 PM by Brandon »
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