The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: cerpntaxt on February 12, 2007, 05:32:38 PM
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(http://unix.rulez.org/~calver/pictures/curves.jpg)
I'm a vi man, myself :)
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A steep learning curve means that you reach the top quickly, so the pictures aren't accurate.
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A steep learning curve means that you reach the top quickly, so the pictures aren't accurate.
What? No one said anything about steepness. If you want to talk about shapes of learning curves, shouldn't we be talking about concavity?
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Sadly, I've spent the early 90s in DOS instead of *NIX, and my family was dirt-poor so I didn't upgrade to a Windows-capable PC right away. So I've used a lot of editors based on DOS IDE's like Turbo Pascal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_Pascal) and Quick BASIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickBASIC), as well as BBS mail / terminal-based editors like IceEdit. My BBS-based ISP also provided e-mail access through pine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_%28e-mail_client%29), so pico / nano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano_%28text_editor%29) were the first *NIX editors I've used.
I'm fairly proficient with vi-like editors now, but prefer to use a KDE-based editor (kate or kdevelop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kdevelop)) whenever in GUI. I still find myself using vim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_%28text_editor%29) for config file editing though. Never liked emacs - too LISPy, and too 1980s MIT.
Didn't really use a RAD IDE since C++Builder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B_Builder) / VS6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio). For a while I used to use UE Studio (http://www.idmcomp.com/index.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150) when in Windows, but I've since returned to using any freeware Windows editor I happen to bump into, like the Crimson Editor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Editor). I use SftpDrive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SftpDrive) to edit remote files.
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What? No one said anything about steepness.
The picture of the Vi learning curve shows it being steep. If it were steep, it would not take long before you had mastered it.
(http://aeokos.org/graphics/learning_curve.png)
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Well that picture is obviously a joke :) I got it from the Emacs wiki (http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/EnjoyWrestlingWithEmacs) so it's obviously biased. The idea is that to use vi you have to know every little thing about it and then you can't go anywhere from there. Which is obviously false. Whatever. It's a funny picture.
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The idea is that to use vi you have to know every little thing about it and then you can't go anywhere from there.
Then the picture should look like this:
(http://aeokos.org/graphics/vi_learning_curve.png)
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No it would be logistic. Something like this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Logistic-curve.png)
Must we split this hair further?
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(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4555/graph2qz3.gif)
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Will no one dispute the claim that vi is infinitely superior to Emacs?
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Will no one dispute the claim that vi is infinitely superior to Emacs?
Is this what we've come to? Atheist vs. Agnostic, Minarchist vs. Anarchist, and now vi vs. Emacs? Why not add some more:
Python vs. Perl
Opening brace on new line vs. Opening brace on same line
Little edian vs. Big endian
Tabs vs. Spaces
Reference semantics vs. Value semantics
Linux vs. BSD
MySQL vs. PostgreSQL
and my personal favourite
Mountain Dew vs. Jolt
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vi FTW! NUBS!
-- Bridget is nuts 'cause she's learning to code in C++, LISP, and JAVA at the same time.... :shock:
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vi FTW! NUBS!
-- Bridget is nuts 'cause she's learning to code in C++, LISP, and JAVA at the same time.... :shock:
I'm sorry to hear about C++ and Java, they both blow. But Lisp is great, it's a lot of fun.
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Will no one dispute the claim that vi is infinitely superior to Emacs?
Is this what we've come to? Atheist vs. Agnostic, Minarchist vs. Anarchist, and now vi vs. Emacs? Why not add some more:
Python vs. Perl
Opening brace on new line vs. Opening brace on same line
Little edian vs. Big endian
Tabs vs. Spaces
Reference semantics vs. Value semantics
Linux vs. BSD
MySQL vs. PostgreSQL
and my personal favourite
Mountain Dew vs. Jolt
I was hoping to lighten the mood :lol:
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I was hoping to lighten the mood :lol:
You've forced all of us geeks to expose ourselves. Anyone with a dog in this race is truly a nerd. :shock:
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Bridget is nuts 'cause she's learning to code in C++, LISP, and JAVA at the same time.... :shock:
C'mon, baby, don't waste your pretty little head!
Leave the shoveling of ones and zeros to underpaid students in Bangladesh living twenty to a room!
It's what you can do that matters, not how close it is to the CPU or how it fits into the 1970s ideas on informational aesthetics!
Improve your LAMP skills instead, and leave the world in awe of what you can do with them!
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Python vs. Perl
Python.
Opening brace on new line vs. Opening brace on same line
Real programming languages, such as Python, do not waste your time with braces.
Besides, when did Dentists deligate brace placement to programming languages?
Little edian vs. Big endian
Little endian.
Because less is more.
Tabs vs. Spaces
Spaces.
Reference semantics vs. Value semantics
That's like asking if you want a fast car or a rugged 4 wheel drive jeep. Depends on the task at hand.
Linux vs. BSD
The devil is cute but I still prefer Linux.
MySQL vs. PostgreSQL
PostgreSQL
Mountain Dew vs. Jolt
The only difference is the food coloring. Doesn't really matter, I'd drink both if nothing else was available.
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Python vs. Perl
Python.
That one wasn't really fair. I'd rather code in Brainfuck (http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/) than Perl. Why Perl is so popular is completely beyond me. Buncha massochists.
MySQL vs. PostgreSQL
PostgreSQL
Separates the grownups from the children.
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Everyone who picks python over perl gets a +5 from me! 8)
But ya gotta be comfortable in perl too. Perlphobia can seriously screw up your career.
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lmao BrainFuck... I forgot about that :lol:
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But ya gotta be comfortable in perl too. Perlphobia can seriously screw up your career.
Being comfortable with Perl is like being comfortable with 3 hemorrhoids. Perl is truly a necessary evil for now, but one day soon we will eradicate it! :x
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Everyone who picks python over perl gets a +5 from me! 8)
But ya gotta be comfortable in perl too. Perlphobia can seriously screw up your career.
I would choose perl over python, but only because my job requires it...
But I consider it scripting, not programming. I guess I am just old like that.
But for a text editor for code editing Ihave been using sciTE
http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html
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++++++++++
[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-] The initial loop to set up useful values in the array
>++. Print 'H'
>+. Print 'e'
+++++++. Print 'l'
. Print 'l'
+++. Print 'o'
>++. Print ' '
<<+++++++++++++++. Print 'W'
>. Print 'o'
+++. Print 'r'
------. Print 'l'
--------. Print 'd'
>+. Print '!'
>. Print newline
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I'm a big endian myself.
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vi FTW! NUBS!
-- Bridget is nuts 'cause she's learning to code in C++, LISP, and JAVA at the same time.... :shock:
I'm sorry to hear about C++ and Java, they both blow. But Lisp is great, it's a lot of fun.
Dude I love Java, it's fucking easy to code in, then again I've also learned Assembly and [ANSI] C. :-P
C++ is okay, but Java is more functional for OOP next to Python.
-- Bridget
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Dude I love Java, it's fucking easy to code in, then again I've also learned Assembly and [ANSI] C. :-P
I thought the same thing about Java, too. But once I really got into it, its weaknesses became apparent.
C++ is okay, but Java is more functional for OOP next to Python.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Python's OO implemetation is much more pure than Java. The fact that C++ and Java are being used to teach OO is twisting the minds of a whole generation of programmers.
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Dude I love Java, it's fucking easy to code in, then again I've also learned Assembly and [ANSI] C. :-P
I thought the same thing about Java, too. But once I really got into it, its weaknesses became apparent.
I haven't found any. I use it for lots of application designs.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Python's OO implemetation is much more pure than Java. The fact that C++ and Java are being used to teach OO is twisting the minds of a whole generation of programmers.
I think you misread what I said. I said Java is more functional for OOP next to Python that implies Python is more functional than Java as Java is more functional than C++. (Python > Java > C++) :)
Damn I need to stop reading my Discrete Mathematics textbook. :shock:
-- Bridget
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I think you misread what I said. I said Java is more functional for OOP next to Python that implies Python is more functional than Java as Java is more functional than C++. (Python > Java > C++) :)
Damn I need to stop reading my Discrete Mathematics textbook. :shock:
-- Bridget
You're right, I read it as "Java is more functional for OOP [compared to] Python". Ain't imprecision grand?
In that case, I'm going to have to agree with you.
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I've used Pico, Nano, Notepad, and Gedit. I mostly work in Gedit.
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I think you misread what I said. I said Java is more functional for OOP next to Python that implies Python is more functional than Java as Java is more functional than C++. (Python > Java > C++) :)
Damn I need to stop reading my Discrete Mathematics textbook. :shock:
-- Bridget
You're right, I read it as "Java is more functional for OOP [compared to] Python". Ain't imprecision grand?
In that case, I'm going to have to agree with you.
But I heard smalltalk is okay, but I'm sorta skeptical since I read an example hello world version of a smalltalk program and was I like. "WTF?!?!" I can read LISP better than smalltalk.
-- Bridget
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But I heard smalltalk is okay, but I'm sorta skeptical since I read an example hello world version of a smalltalk program and was I like. "WTF?!?!" I can read LISP better than smalltalk.
It's all a matter of what you're used to. If you had only ever done Smalltalk, reading C would be also be WTF. Lisp's parentheses really throw off a lot of programmers. I've worked with Smalltalk quite a bit and I find it to be very readable. Not as readable as Python or Ada, but readable none the less.
Of course, this doesn't apply to Perl, no one can read Perl.
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Yes, that's true. Perl is just read by accident, not by intention. :lol:
-- Bridget
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Yes, that's true. Perl is just read by accident, not by intention. :lol:
-- Bridget
"Perl: The only language that looks the same before and after RSA encryption"
-- Keith Bostic
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Some more fun quotes:
http://www.sysprog.net/quotjava.html
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Some more fun quotes:
http://www.sysprog.net/quotjava.html
If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution. (Robert Sewell)
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All this OO talk and no one mentioned RubyLanguage (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RubyLanguage) yet...
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Python vs. Perl
Python. No contest.
Opening brace on new line vs. Opening brace on same line
I haven't decided on this one yet, because I haven't done much programming in bracy languages. I used to like the same line, but in my most recent assignment for my C++ class I've switched to new line, and I think I may like it more.
Tabs vs. Spaces
Anything but a tab makes the baby Science cry.
Mountain Dew vs. Jolt
SUUUUURGE!!!!!!!
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Dew vs Jolt... Jolt definitely.
-- Bridget
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But Jolt tastes like shit.
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But Jolt tastes like shit.
Human taste can be fooled very easily. Use your mind. If you don't understand everything about what you're drinking, just drink some pure H2O instead.
(Or beer. Me drink like 20 beers tonight. Beer make me self-aware and happy...)
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But Jolt tastes like shit.
I've never tasted jolt or shit.
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Opening brace on new line vs. Opening brace on same line
I haven't decided on this one yet, because I haven't done much programming in bracy languages. I used to like the same line, but in my most recent assignment for my C++ class I've switched to new line, and I think I may like it more.
I do both in the same code. If it works I don't give a crap.
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emacs: eight megabytes and constantly swapping :lol:
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Opening brace on new line vs. Opening brace on same line
I haven't decided on this one yet, because I haven't done much programming in bracy languages. I used to like the same line, but in my most recent assignment for my C++ class I've switched to new line, and I think I may like it more.
I do both in the same code. If it works I don't give a crap.
I agree there. :lol:
-- Bridget
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Dat's it, I'm writing a family of unstopable platform-specific virii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_virus) that will search all the world's networked storage devices for code and indent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_%28Unix%29) it to my liking! Make your peace! All your brace are belong to us!
Seriously, though, I think version control systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revision_control_software) and IDE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment)'s will evolve to preemptively reformat code based on each programmer's preferences. But we all know the whole world will switch to Python before that...
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Alex, btw, thanks for the linky to Ruby, I was going to learn it, but I forgot to get around to it. It's not bad, the method creation system is fairly straight forward. I think the debate over {} or not is silly, what matters is two things. 1) How many systems adopt the use of said language and 2) how well the compilers are built. If 1 is all a language has going for it and 2 is shit, then it's logical to try another language. As for why C++ is used more than say Java or Python, that's simple, louder voices usually get heard more than the more quieter kind. Essentially, Python was built by programmers for programmers, the same it seems with Ruby and etc, where it's really not needed to put effort in getting the word out, it gets out simply because of the normal shop talk. That's why you see so many books now devoted to Python [I don't know if there's any books published on Ruby, maybe you can give us a, FTL'd Amazon linky for that. :(] just because of that chatter. :)
I think C++ is decent, the only complaint I have is the mixture of C like syntax and un-C like syntax, so it confuses a user of C on what the fuck they're doing, like the operator overloading. I'm still going WTF about the syntax there. Usually I ask a wouldbe programmer what they want to do. If they say games. I point toward C, possibly C++ if the given game requires it, but I usually say stick with the old fart language only because there's loads of libraries and documents on how to do shit with it. Plus, most games don't really need OOP to do most of their work. I dare say procedural programming is better suited for games in that it makes the general game leaner because you have to think in steps before you do a part of the game you want to do [like how do I handle calls for the 3d sound library...].
Sorry for the lecture, but that's what I've been thinking about all day.
-- Bridget
P.S. I love Pure BASIC too, so there!
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I don't edit text, I half-consiously stumble through it. Sleep might be a good idea sometime.
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[I don't know if there's any books published on Ruby, maybe you can give us a, FTL'd Amazon linky for that. :(]
You can get the first edition of Programming Ruby: The Pragmatic Programmer's Guide (http://www.rubycentral.com/book/) for free or buy it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ruby-Pragmatic-Programmers-Second/dp/0974514055/sr=8-1/qid=1171538592/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1584260-0291263?ie=UTF8&s=books).
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[I don't know if there's any books published on Ruby, maybe you can give us a, FTL'd Amazon linky for that. :(]
You can get the first edition of Programming Ruby: The Pragmatic Programmer's Guide (http://www.rubycentral.com/book/) for free or buy it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ruby-Pragmatic-Programmers-Second/dp/0974514055/sr=8-1/qid=1171538592/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1584260-0291263?ie=UTF8&s=books).
You forgot the FTL'd Amazon linky for that (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0974514055/freetalklive-20).
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I've been avoiding Eclipse-based IDE's, but I've recently tried Aptana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptana) and I'm lovin' it.