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Poll

Well?

Altruistic, cause I like sacrificing my life for others.
- 3 (10.7%)
Egoistic, cause I like living for my own self.
- 17 (60.7%)
Neither, I do my own thing [whatever that is].
- 8 (28.6%)

Total Members Voted: 9


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Author Topic: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?  (Read 6140 times)

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ladyattis

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Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« on: October 23, 2006, 10:33:43 AM »

Well? :)

-- Bridget
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lapafrax

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2006, 07:05:18 AM »

Morality should be doing as you please, whilst accepting the logical consequences of your actions. 
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Rillion

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2006, 09:23:01 AM »

For me, egoism includes altruism, so I must say "both."
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Laetitia

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2006, 10:11:09 AM »

For me, egoism includes altruism, so I must say "both."

Well said.
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Trademark

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2006, 11:47:34 AM »

I went with egoism, it's honest.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 01:34:18 AM by Trademark »
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markuzick

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2006, 01:24:55 AM »

For me, egoism includes altruism, so I must say "both."

That's just as logical as secular religion.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
e‧go‧ism  /ˈigoʊˌɪzəm, ˈɛgoʊ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-goh-iz-uhm, eg-oh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest; selfishness (opposed to altruism).
____________________________________________________________________________
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
al‧tru‧ism  /ˈæltruˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-troo-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).
______________________________________________________________________________
Given the value that you place on the concern for the welfare of others, as well as on egoism, don't you think it's time to coin a new term to encompass both values? So I will ask you for the 3rd time:


If we can limit selfishness to rational self interest, in order to get rational selfishness, then why not limit altruism to rational empathy, in order to get rational- altruism.

Here's how it would look:

Just as

selfishness: Concern for yourself, without regard to the welfare or rights of others.

becomes

rational selfishness: Concern for yourself, but limited by ethical behavior and augmented by the pleasure of helping others.,

so

altruism: The principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others.

becomes

rational- altruism: The principle or practice of rational selfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others.


What do you think?

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Evil Muppet

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2006, 02:12:20 AM »

the poll questions are kind of loaded.

you think it is so simple as a clear alternative between the two? 
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Trademark

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2006, 02:18:26 AM »

the poll questions are kind of loaded.

you think it is so simple as a clear alternative between the two? 

I agree, it should be more simple.
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Peppermint Pig

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2006, 02:27:14 AM »

Get The Balance Right - Depeche Mode

I'd say both, but my vote says option 3, cause it's something of a trick question! One must be able to appreciate both, but it benefits logic to extricate ones self as far as possible from ego based judgements sometimes in order to analyze situations.
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Trademark

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2006, 02:31:14 AM »

Get The Balance Right - Depeche Mode

I'd say both, but my vote says option 3, cause it's something of a trick question! One must be able to appreciate both, but it benefits logic to extricate ones self as far as possible from ego based judgements sometimes in order to analyze situations.

You put alot of thought into that.  :P
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Rillion

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2006, 06:13:47 AM »

If we can limit selfishness to rational self interest, in order to get rational selfishness, then why not limit altruism to rational empathy, in order to get rational- altruism.

Here's how it would look:

Just as

selfishness: Concern for yourself, without regard to the welfare or rights of others.

becomes

rational selfishness: Concern for yourself, but limited by ethical behavior and augmented by the pleasure of helping others.,

so

altruism: The principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others.

becomes

rational- altruism: The principle or practice of rational selfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others.


What do you think?

Sounds good to me.  I think most people are rational altruists, or try to be.  One caveat with regard to "altruism" is that even though it is usually used to mean "helping others at one's own expense," the understanding is generally that it may be at one's own expense now,  but is not ultimately so-- that is, there is a reasonable expectation that the act will bring rewards in the future, whether directly from those you helped or indirectly from those who observed you helping and have decided to help you on that basis, believing there are grounds for trust that you would do the same for them. 

Therefore, "altruism" may be somewhat sacrificial, but only in the very short term for most people, most of the time, and arguably it is therefore usually self-interested even if not consciously so.  This is most common in close-knit groups of people, such as family and smaller societies where people rely on established bonds of trust.  The proper term for it in this sense is "reciprocal altruism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism
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markuzick

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Re: Should Morality be altruistic or egoistic?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2006, 04:11:32 PM »

If we can limit selfishness to rational self interest, in order to get rational selfishness, then why not limit altruism to rational empathy, in order to get rational- altruism.

Here's how it would look:

Just as

selfishness: Concern for yourself, without regard to the welfare or rights of others.

becomes

rational selfishness: Concern for yourself, but limited by ethical behavior and augmented by the pleasure of helping others.,

so

altruism: The principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others.

becomes

rational- altruism: The principle or practice of rational selfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others.


What do you think?

Sounds good to me.  I think most people are rational altruists, or try to be.  One caveat with regard to "altruism" is that even though it is usually used to mean "helping others at one's own expense," the understanding is generally that it may be at one's own expense now,  but is not ultimately so-- that is, there is a reasonable expectation that the act will bring rewards in the future, whether directly from those you helped or indirectly from those who observed you helping and have decided to help you on that basis, believing there are grounds for trust that you would do the same for them. 

Therefore, "altruism" may be somewhat sacrificial, but only in the very short term for most people, most of the time, and arguably it is therefore usually self-interested even if not consciously so.  This is most common in close-knit groups of people, such as family and smaller societies where people rely on established bonds of trust.  The proper term for it in this sense is "reciprocal altruism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

Thanks for your input.

That's not exactly the same thing that I mean by rational-altruism. I'm talking about the case where love or empathic satisfaction is the only tat that you will receive for your tit. Actually, I'm having second thoughts about including altruism in the term at all, since it's original meaning is so contradictory to what most people really believe in. How about:

empathic-egoism:  The principle or practice of rational selfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others, with expectation of only emotional reward.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.
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