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Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: Zhwazi on February 13, 2008, 07:36:17 PM

Title: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Zhwazi on February 13, 2008, 07:36:17 PM
Ron Paul's Revolution is dead. We all know it. To most people, it's the most painfully obvious sign possible that libertarianism has no hope in politics. The best that Libertarian politics had to offer wasn't even a serious contender. To others, it's merely a sign that we should work at a more local level.

IMO we should start at the most local level: The individual. Free yourself. Get those around you to free themselves. I think working at more and more local levels of government will result in failure in the significant races and no results in the winnable races, ultimately a long, time-consuming process that'll eventually lead right back to freeing yourself and helping those around you to do the same. Collectivism is no means to individualism. This is the fatal flaw of Libertarian politics.

But that's just my analysis. Share yours if you like.

(In before MobileDigit tells me I'm wrong.)
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on February 13, 2008, 07:38:00 PM
I believe politics and antipolitical methods are both viable.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 13, 2008, 07:38:22 PM
Will antipolitics power a warp core?
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Zhwazi on February 13, 2008, 08:01:07 PM
Will antipolitics power a warp core?
It'll build the warp core, power it, and write the operating manual.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: MobileDigit on February 13, 2008, 09:07:42 PM
I am working on the problems of Agorist theory, and how Ukagnostism and convincing people on a one on one basis is superior and achievable.

http://AdvanceTheArgument.com/ - Always being updated.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Zhwazi on February 13, 2008, 09:24:31 PM
I am working on the problems of Agorist theory, and how Ukagnostism and convincing people on a one on one basis is superior and achievable.

http://AdvanceTheArgument.com/ - Always being updated.
What in the universe makes you think agorism excludes convincing people on a one-on-one basis?
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 13, 2008, 09:25:51 PM
Watch the language, people.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Zhwazi on February 13, 2008, 09:27:15 PM
Watch the language, people.
So you'll stop calling me dolphin fucker?
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: DogOn on February 13, 2008, 09:29:57 PM
It was a mistake to believe a libertarian could make it into the white house without any other societal/political change to make it come about.

It seems far more logical for libertarians to concentrate on making a single state more free and then concentrating on a secessionist movement

If you think Ron Paul was the only hope for liberty in your lifetime then give up if you want. Although I think you are grossly over estimating how likely an RP presidency was, and grossly under valuing other avenues to bring about liberty.  Ron Pauls best success has always been brining new people into the liberty movement, although i don't know how effective that has been if it turns out most RP supporters just get burnt out and drop out of any form of liberty activism whatsoever. I've heard quite a few former RP supporters claim they think achieving anything towards freedom is impossible now, so we should just "wait" for government to run its course. This seems like a totally destructive attitude for anyone who cares about liberty to have.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on February 13, 2008, 09:34:10 PM
Watch the language, people.
So you'll stop calling me dolphin fucker?

But you ARE a dolphin fucker.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 13, 2008, 09:47:57 PM
Watch the language, people.
So you'll stop calling me dolphin fucker?

But you ARE a dolphin fucker.

He never said he actually fucked any dolphins. Yet.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 13, 2008, 09:48:58 PM
Watch the language, people.
So you'll stop calling me dolphin fucker?

Maybe.

You know I'm just messing with you when I say that, right?
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Zhwazi on February 13, 2008, 09:56:52 PM
Yeah, I know you're messing with me.

And no, I haven't confessed to having sex with dolphins yet.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 13, 2008, 10:00:38 PM
And no, I haven't confessed to having sex with dolphins yet.

Hmm...
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on February 14, 2008, 08:46:17 AM
And no, I haven't confessed to having sex with dolphins yet.

Okay, well keep us updated on that.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: MobileDigit on February 14, 2008, 09:24:44 AM
I am working on the problems of Agorist theory, and how Ukagnostism and convincing people on a one on one basis is superior and achievable.

http://AdvanceTheArgument.com/ - Always being updated.
What in the universe makes you think agorism excludes convincing people on a one-on-one basis?

That's not what I think. I think Agorism has problems that Ukagnosticism (http://advancetheargument.com/) acknowledges and refutes. I will work on my argument today. I hope I will be able to convince you to abandon Agorism in favor of my better theory, which incorporates all of the good in Agorism, and rejects all of the bad.

Doesn't that seem reasonable?


But you ARE a dolphin fucker.

What's wrong with dolphin fucking?

And no, I haven't confessed to having sex with dolphins yet.

I don't think anyone should be appalled when you do so.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Porcupine_in_MA on February 14, 2008, 10:04:17 AM
As long as its between two consenting parties  :lol:
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 14, 2008, 11:07:31 AM
I don't think anyone should be appalled when you do so.

They shouldn't jail him. Animals are property.  I don't know about people not being legitimately disgusted.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Andy on February 14, 2008, 02:30:47 PM
Other.

I don't think either are particularly viable in terms of changing the world. (for more liberty)

As far far as changing your life for the better anti-politics/black market stuff might work, it really depends how risk averse you are and what your skills and abilities are.

Politics would obviously only have a negative effect on you personally, even if you win the freedom you can achieve won't be worth the effort so you'll still lose. (unless you're corrupt.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: MobileDigit on February 15, 2008, 09:27:53 PM
As long as its between two consenting parties  :lol:

Dolphins have no problem consenting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphins


I don't think anyone should be appalled when you do so.
They shouldn't jail him. Animals are property.  I don't know about people not being legitimately disgusted.

Animals are just part of humanity's family. They generally do not have the ability to communicate with humans, and that is why they can legitimately be owned. Just like a lion can amorally eat a zebra, a human can amorally keep a lion.

Why should people be disgusted with love?


Other.
I believe politics is viable damage control and antipolitics is a viable solution.

Absolutely.


I don't think either are particularly viable in terms of changing the world. (for more liberty)

I don't think that statement has any basis in reality.

As far far as changing your life for the better anti-politics/black market stuff might work, it really depends how risk averse you are and what your skills and abilities are.

It is much simpler than that. Really all you have to do is want liberty now, and be willing to help other liberty activists by putting down your own money on it.

Yesterday I told my friend Bubba, a homeless man, that I would provide him with money if he would spread the message of liberty. He agreed.

Send me money: http://AdvanceTheArgument.com/

Politics would obviously only have a negative effect on you personally, even if you win the freedom you can achieve won't be worth the effort so you'll still lose. (unless you're corrupt.

I don't think it is even necessary. Remember Rothbard talking about the rebellions convincing the Soviet tanks to fight for them? We can do this on a one on one basis with cops. You must convince them they, you, and society would be better off if they did not aggress against you. It is definitely possible. Do not resist, this is going to happen because of the interweb, and there is nothing you can do to stop human enlightenment.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Zhwazi on February 16, 2008, 06:21:49 AM
there is nothing you can do to stop human enlightenment.
I wish that were true. But encouraging poor thinking skills and ignorance certainly does stop human enlightenment.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: MobileDigit on February 16, 2008, 08:16:37 AM
there is nothing you can do to stop human enlightenment.
I wish that were true. But encouraging poor thinking skills and ignorance certainly does stop human enlightenment.

Ultimately, no it won't.

Post that in the form of a question (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=19757.msg363975#msg363975), I will elaborate on FTL.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: TheHave on February 28, 2008, 12:22:26 PM
It seems too idealistic to me to think that we can seriously accomplish much in any appealing time frame without participating in politics. I think it's good for people to drop out and refuse to participate because they can live more freely and they lend seriousness and viability to external opinion of libertarian ideas, but there are only so many people that can really be reached that way.

Even if your ultimate goal is the elimination of government altogether (which is unrealistic, in my opinion), you'll get there faster (nonviolently, anyway) if you change the structure from the inside.

*cracks knuckles* who's first?
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: sillyperson on February 28, 2008, 02:19:40 PM
working at more and more local levels of government will result in failure in the significant races and no results in the winnable races
Then, how do you explain this?

[youtube=425,350]5GpZ5sbZOSs[/youtube]
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 28, 2008, 02:42:49 PM
And what has he done to make NH freer?
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: sillyperson on February 28, 2008, 03:23:16 PM
And what has he done to make NH freer?
Among others, there's this:

http://generalcourt.org/bills/2007/hb685
AN ACT prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a national identification card system
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 28, 2008, 03:24:53 PM
And what has he done to make NH freer?
Among others, there's this:

http://generalcourt.org/bills/2007/hb685
AN ACT prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a national identification card system

I said what has he done to make it freer? There is no national ID card. It does not affect my freedom.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: sillyperson on February 28, 2008, 03:45:40 PM
And what has he done to make NH freer?
Among others, there's this:

http://generalcourt.org/bills/2007/hb685
AN ACT prohibiting New Hampshire from participating in a national identification card system

I said what has he done to make it freer? There is no national ID card. It does not affect my freedom.

Fair enough.
We'll see if you feel any different after May 11.
Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: jimmed on February 28, 2008, 04:15:59 PM
"On May 11, 2008, state driver's licenses and identification cards will not be accepted for federal purposes unless DHS determines a state is compliant with the Real ID"

I don't do anything that involves having to show ID to federal agents. I don't fly or cross borders and avoid any immigration checkpoints on interstate highways.

But that means NH's bill is going to inconvenience a lot of travelers. It's gonna be repealed this () quick when voters start bitching.

Fail.

Title: Re: Politics vs Antipolitics
Post by: Laetitia on February 28, 2008, 04:39:17 PM
With that May 2008 deadline, I was wondering if I should maybe renew early this year, since I'm due for the DMV photoshoot/fingerprint renewal in June. In checking the GA state government site, there is absolutely no information about any new standards going into place this year.
 :?

I don't know if this means the governor has already taken the permission to delay implementing compliance (until DHS shows how the information of Georgia's citizens will be protected from ID theft) or if it's just slow updates on the GA site. Although, since GA already takes a finger scan, it's possible that the licenses issued by the state are already compliant.

More research is necessary. Damn. The only thing I hate more than wasting my time in line at the DMV is wasting my time thinking about the time I'll be wasting in line at the DMV.