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Poll

Would you approve of a pro-liberty activist who covertly commits welfare fraud?

Yes, great idea!
- 8 (38.1%)
Yes, but I wouldn't.
- 2 (9.5%)
Maybe, if s\he spends it all on a pro-liberty cause.
- 1 (4.8%)
Maybe, if s\he uses time off work for a good cause.
- 0 (0%)
No, but I wouldn't ostracize them.
- 3 (14.3%)
No, and I would ostracize them.
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 12


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Author Topic: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud  (Read 7689 times)

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Alex Libman

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Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« on: August 24, 2008, 08:03:26 PM »

I'll add a poll later asking if you agree with this hypothetical moral argument, but I'd like a chance to develop it to a greater level of detail first, which may require more than one post / edit.  And this is 100% hypothetical: I have never intentionally committed "Welfare" or any other fraud, government or otherwise, nor do I intend to, nor do I advocate it for others, I am merely bringing this up as a thought experiment.

The moral argument is initially based on an analogy of a "slave" (or any other person wrongfully deprived of Right to Liberty) attempting to escape.  In order for this analogy to work, the hypothetical real-world person participating in Welfare fraud must also consider himself to be oppressed, and have no simple and direct means of escaping oppression.  Since this is a forum for a radio show whose hosts' views range from fairly radical Minarchism to Anarcho-Capitalism and dabbling in tax resistance, it is probably safe to assume that the notion of the government being an oppressive entity would not be met with much shock and disbelief here.  Others might say "but you're free to leave the country any time", which is true (though you still have to jump through many government hoops), but this isn't the same as escaping the government.  Renouncing your citizenship isn't easy and requires obtaining citizenship with some other oppressive government, and you're liable for taxes to your old "master" until you do.  And governments are everywhere, and they compete (or, as of late, cooperate) with each-other to colonize any patch of earth that might be without one.  The reach of the United Nations expands into high seas and even outer space, and there is no reason to believe they would ever limit themselves from expanding their power as much as possible to whatever gulch we can try to hide in.  In other words, if you do not accept the "divine right" of governments to rule you, then your situation is comparable to a "slave" who doesn't accept his master's property rights to himself!  The mere privilege to vote (even Nazi "death camps" had elected representatives) or petition to be transfered to a different plantation might be beneficial, but it does not make a slave free!

Most people would agree that a "slave" has a moral right to escape, as per the Right to "Free Exit", but....  By what means?  The plantation "slave" in our analogy has no property of his own to fight with, except the self-proclaimed ownership of his mind and body, which no one else recognizes, and he is kept chained up under lock and key.  Even if he can: does a "slave" have the moral right to break the chains that bind him?  Those chains are the rightful property of the plantation owner, and for anyone else to steal or damage them would constitute a crime.  After breaking the chains, can the "slave" run into the kitchen to get a knife for self-defense, and some other supplies needed to make his escape attempt less futile?  But all of this is theft!  The plantation owner would have to work his (remaining) "slaves" a bit harder to have the money to buy a new knife, a new set of chains, etc - unless of course they start breaking their chains and making a run for it as well, in which case the plantation will eventually go bankrupt!

If it is morally justified to break your chains and even steal other things in order to gain your freedom, what else is justified?  I won't even mention murder (except I just did), but is it justified to lie and cheat to escape?  Can you lie to your "master" when he asks if those chains are strong enough to hold you?  Where do you draw the line?  And, in the modern world, does that moral line stop short of Welfare fraud?

Committing Welfare fraud is just an inch away from other things one might have to do to keep oneself out of prison for tax resistance (in some cases it might be easier than not to!), and it has other advantages as well.  Being able to use your enemy's weapons against him will help make his plantation less profitable, and free money from the government would mean you'll need to spend less time earning a living (and thus "feeding the beast") and more time for covert pro-liberty education and activism!  Perhaps you could donate your whole Welfare check to AMP!  Oh man, you could cut the irony with a knife!

Discuss.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 08:09:56 PM by Alex Libman »
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orion

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 04:49:29 AM »

I can't fall asleep, so I might as well reply to this thread...

I do not believe it to be justified to try and get welfare without paying taxes. If you don't put into the system, then by removing from the system you essentially steal other peoples' money. At least if you DO indeed pay taxes you have some claim to the money in there.
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The Champ

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 05:43:57 AM »

I do not believe it to be justified to try and get welfare without paying taxes. If you don't put into the system, then by removing from the system you essentially steal other peoples' money. At least if you DO indeed pay taxes you have some claim to the money in there.

In principle I agree, but in practice, every dollar stolen via welfare (whether by fraud or "legal" means) is one less dollar the government can spend on war and domestic oppression.  I'm pretty sure that if from next week nobody claims welfare, taxes wouldn't go down and the government would just find something else to waste money on.

Also, I sometimes feel that if more people committed welfare fraud, the sooner the whole system would go bankrupt.
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EL CHAMPO NUMERO UNO

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 06:52:29 AM »

Is it fraud to "deceive" a thief into returning your money?
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BonerJoe

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 09:28:19 AM »

Is it fraud to "deceive" a thief into returning your money?

As long as you are only getting back what was stolen from you, including intrest.
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Alex Libman

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 11:28:21 AM »

Also, I sometimes feel that if more people committed welfare fraud, the sooner the whole system would go bankrupt.

Bingo!  And this does assume that you covertly donate all the money you get to an anti-government cause.


As long as you are only getting back what was stolen from you, including [interest].

How do you measure what the government has stolen from you?

If you've spent time in jail for a victimless crime, what's that time worth?  And what about the fear of getting arrested, does that cost anything?

If you went to a public school, what's your childhood worth?  What about the time spend unlearning the propaganda and reeducating yourself afterwards?

What about the sleepless nights thinking about the moral implications of the killing that your government does in your name, how much for that?  What's one sleepless night worth?
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atomiccat

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 12:47:35 PM »



Quote
How do you measure what the government has stolen from you?
well take everything they have stolen from you and all their fee's and hidden taxes and add anything else applicable ( like mental anguish, Negligence and fraud of the government doing stuff in your name And interest

Well i think we should be all millionaires then ... to bad the government will never pay out

And i would like my money In Gold Equivalent based upon highest rate from when i was born till now


Quote
If you've spent time in jail for a victimless crime, what's that time worth?  And what about the fear of getting arrested, does that cost anything?
what Does the prison get per year for having you the And how much would you have made if you weren't in jail Then Add interest just like the government does

Quote
If you went to a public school, what's your childhood worth?  What about the time spend unlearning the propaganda and reeducating yourself afterwards?

If you went to a public school
How much does the school get from taxes and the goverrnment for you + interest

what's your childhood worth?
Well Blame your parents on that one unless they tried to let you stay outta school and the government made you

What about the time spend unlearning the propaganda and reeducating yourself afterwards?
Dunno  but i guess how about they give you the money to feed and house you during your re Edumacation

Quote
What about the sleepless nights thinking about the moral implications of the killing that your government does in your name, how much for that? 
how much money did you lose because of you losing sleep

Quote
What's one sleepless night worth?
2 cents

Alex Libman

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 02:38:59 PM »

By that logic one would be allowed to grab any woman off the street, rape her, throw her whatever amount of cash he decides she was worth, and get away with it!
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atomiccat

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 03:06:28 PM »

Ok how about we kill every main person in government for everything they have done to us, and take their money, and maybe a little bit of torture before we kill em





do not call fbi on me i am not advocating Violence towards anyone

Alex Libman

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 03:55:45 PM »

Ok how about we kill every main person in government for everything they have done to us, and take their money, and maybe a little bit of torture before we kill em

I've contemplated this possibility and found it logistically unfeasible.


do not call fbi on me i am not advocating Violence towards anyone

Define violence?  If you were attending a family wedding reception, and suddenly a knife-wielding madman ran into the room and started slicing everybody up, women and children first, and you had a gun you were very good with and had a clear shot with no one else in danger - you wouldn't take him out?  If you would, then you believe that violence is justified in some self-defense cases, though if he was merely slapping people with a rubber chicken you'd probably give him a warning, right?  What if it was a heavy rubber chicken and it gave your nine-year-old niece a bloody nose, possible risk of brain damage?

How do you proportionalize your reaction to someone initiating aggression against you?  That's the point of this thread.  If the government steals from you in taxes (and probably an optimal amount it can get away with stealing, just as any dictator can only push his people so far), why can't you "steal" from the government?  If it lies, why can't you lie?
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trollfreezone

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 04:17:37 PM »

By that logic one would be allowed to grab any woman off the street, rape her, throw her whatever amount of cash he decides she was worth, and get away with it!


The woman would have had to commit armed robbery, and if she did, meh!
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Alex Libman

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 11:52:29 PM »

Added poll.
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BonerJoe

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 12:50:49 AM »

Does that include sales tax, fines, and fees?  Because I know in the last two decades I've racked up at least fifty grand.  

And in the next year its gonna go off retard-fantastic.  

Hey, you know what, they can have it. I don't want it back. I promise I will not try and reclaim my stolen wealth. All they have to do is cease and desist in any further theft. That's all I ask.
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The ghost of a ghost of a ghost

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 01:18:18 AM »

I like this thread, thought provoking...but,
How the fuck did I end up in here?  Who gave me "ruphies"  I mean seriously, what did i click to go this far back in time?  I didn't search for this but ended up here?....glitch in the matrix maybe?
Oh well, it's still a good thread.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 01:20:29 AM by WidespreadPanic »
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Alex Libman

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Re: Moral AnCap Arguments For Welfare Fraud
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2010, 04:36:56 AM »

This thread is.....   :?

it just.... is.

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