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Mark is a Nihilist, What are you? (Only vote AFTER taking the 36 Question Quiz)

Existentialism
Kantianism
Strong Egoism
Hedonism
Utilitarianism
Justice
Nihilism
Apathy
Divine Command

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Author Topic: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?  (Read 40410 times)

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zebraflood

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2006, 03:19:12 AM »

Or in other words, Buddha is a guide and teacher who points the way to 'the highest happiness'. That works.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #106 on: November 09, 2006, 03:21:14 AM »

So if theism must include deities than ESP, astral projection, spirit guides, reincarnation etc. can all be included in an "atheistic" worldview.....   That's what's getting me here.  I think these are all very theistic though not necessarily deistic.  If there's no difference than why different words?


Or in other words, Buddha is a guide and teacher who points the way to 'the highest happiness'. That works.

Yeah dude.  Buddhism is like taoism that way.  But they are both included in theology so why not theism?



edit:  FYI....  Buddha also has been quoted as saying "I and the father are one" same as Jesus did but no one accuses Buddha of implying that he is a Zeuslike man on the mountain god taking human form. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 03:23:49 AM by Roycerson »
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Rillion

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #107 on: November 09, 2006, 05:32:04 AM »

Please present to me another instance of where one is presented an idea and magically does not form a belief.

What color socks am I wearing right now? 

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When presented with the Idea of a GOD -
You either
a. Believe in the idea.
b. disbelieve the idea
c. claim to not have enough knowledge.

Right, and many people who admit to not having enough knowledge therefore lack belief.  Those who choose not to do this are instead appealing to faith, where belief is a matter of morality (or perhaps, secretly, arrogance) rather than evidence. 

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Your option of simply lacking belief can only exist in someone who has never even heard the concept of a god.

Surely you've heard of socks, yet you have no idea what color my socks are.  You don't even know if I'm wearing socks.  So how can you have a belief regarding my socks? 

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Atheism as you decribe it does not exist. What you are decribing is Agnosticism.

Atheism and agnosticism are terms relating to two different realms: belief and (presumed) knowledge, respectively (go back to the etymology of the words).  An atheism is a person who does not believe in gods.  An agnostic is a person who does not know whether gods exist or not. Therefore, it is entirely possible to be an agnostic and an atheist at the same time, which is what I am.  For that matter, it is also possible to be a gnostic ("strong") atheist (one who claims to know that no gods exist), a gnostic ("strong") theist, or an agnostic ("weak") theist.

The thing is, you can find definitions which say whatever you want...and often disagree with each other.  But you need terms in order to convey this difference between believing yourself to know (or not know) about the existence or non-existence of God or gods vs. just believing (or lacking belief) about their existence or non-existence. 

I've said this before:  Definitions are not right or wrong.  They are a matter of consensus, they can be useful or not useful.  I think these definitions are more useful than the ones you're going with.  I've been in and seen so many arguments about what an atheist is and what a theist is that it simply isn't worth going on about, because it goes nowhere.  However, I do think a good argument can be made for trying to be as clear as possible.  I almost never tell somebody I'm an atheist without explaining exactly what I mean by that (assuming they don't ask, which they usually do). 

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I'm sorry if you feel it's a dirty word

I don't feel it's a dirty word; I feel it's inaccurate for what you're trying to describe. 

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I for one, am proud to say "I don't know"

Me too.   It's the only intellectually honest position.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 05:45:16 AM by Rillion »
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2006, 01:35:44 PM »

Please present to me another instance of where one is presented an idea and magically does not form a belief.

What color socks am I wearing right now? 


If I were pressed to answer...
I'd guess that you WERE wearing socks... and I'd guess they were colored.
In order, I thought: purple, pink, blue. Then I thought they were perhaps striped... but I don't know your sense of style well enough to know if you'd adopt a striped sock... so I figured I's stick with a simple solid color.

I'm pretty sure you WERE in fact wearing socks when you asked that question.

Of course I don't know... but I did in fact form a belief. I was forced to.

If someone held a gun to my face and screamed "ANSWER! Was she, or was she not wearing socks! YES or NO! If you say anything else I will shoot you in the face!" I would have to guess based on the belief I formed. I'd say yes.

Of course I don't KNOW if you were wearing socks, and I certainly don't know the color... but guesses come to mind immediately. Those guesses, are beliefs. A rational person does not choose their guesses. Just as I choose not to believe either in the image of an old bearded white man controlling the universe any more than I choose to believe my own notion of a non-corporeal onmiprecient fate. I instead choose to opt to say I don't know, and even lean towards those things NOT existing. The mind creates many fantasies, but we live within our minds... everything we perceive by our 5 senses is in fact interpretted by our brains. Sure you COULD be actually experiencing your reality... (and I know I certainly choose to believe that) or you COULD be a brain in a jar somewhere (  :wink: That was just for you ZF ) All of your beliefs though, most certainly, are a choice.

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Quote
When presented with the Idea of a GOD -
You either
a. Believe in the idea.
b. disbelieve the idea
c. claim to not have enough knowledge.

Right, and many people who admit to not having enough knowledge therefore lack belief.  Those who choose not to do this are instead appealing to faith, where belief is a matter of morality (or perhaps, secretly, arrogance) rather than evidence. 

and lacking knowledge is of course... agnosticism. As we have already discussed above the word Atheist implies to most people that you have an active DISBELIEF. Many words are not defined by their literal definitions, but by what society has come to accept.

Quote
Quote
Your option of simply lacking belief can only exist in someone who has never even heard the concept of a god.

Surely you've heard of socks, yet you have no idea what color my socks are.  You don't even know if I'm wearing socks.  So how can you have a belief regarding my socks? 

The brain takes guesses, and it does not wait to ask whether you want it to. The longer you discuss it, the more options it will explore.

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Quote
Atheism as you decribe it does not exist. What you are decribing is Agnosticism.
Atheism and agnosticism are terms relating to two different realms: belief and (presumed) knowledge, respectively (go back to the etymology of the words).  An atheism is a person who does not believe in gods.  An agnostic is a person who does not know whether gods exist or not. Therefore, it is entirely possible to be an agnostic and an atheist at the same time, which is what I am.  For that matter, it is also possible to be a gnostic ("strong") atheist (one who claims to know that no gods exist), a gnostic ("strong") theist, or an agnostic ("weak") theist.

The thing is, you can find definitions which say whatever you want...and often disagree with each other.  But you need terms in order to convey this difference between believing yourself to know (or not know) about the existence or non-existence of God or gods vs. just believing (or lacking belief) about their existence or non-existence. 

I entirely agree with what you've said here on principle. Where I don't agree is with your choice to shorten Agnostic Atheist down to Atheist.
I'll let your next comment back up my point...

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I've said this before:  Definitions are not right or wrong.  They are a matter of consensus, they can be useful or not useful. 

Consensus implies that atheist means a DISbeliever. Consensus also IMPLIES that all agnostics are also athiests. To use the words in a manner that is contrary to consensus simply makes for a longer conversation where you waste time explaining all of this to the religious fellow who doesn't really care.  (when you could be spending the same time have a conversation about something meaningful)

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I think these definitions are more useful than the ones you're going with.  I've been in and seen so many arguments about what an atheist is and what a theist is that it simply isn't worth going on about, because it goes nowhere. 
Probably due to wasting a lot of time ignoring the standard societal meanings of things.  :D

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However, I do think a good argument can be made for trying to be as clear as possible.  I almost never tell somebody I'm an atheist without explaining exactly what I mean by that (assuming they don't ask, which they usually do). 
I'd be all for using the longer term, Agnostic Atheist, with an explanation if you really feel that people need to be educated that not all atheists are strong atheists, and in fact weak atheism can exist. Seems easier to me to call yourself agnostic and let it be implied that you are athiest. 

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Quote
I'm sorry if you feel it's a dirty word
I don't feel it's a dirty word; I feel it's inaccurate for what you're trying to describe. 

Again, as has been discussed. In principle.. true. In the reality of society, and definition by consensus, false.

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I for one, am proud to say "I don't know"

Me too.   It's the only intellectually honest position.

I should add, just becuase you don't know something, doesn't mean you don't have a best guess. Especially if we bring in the - which guess would you say if you were forced - argument.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 01:47:27 PM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Ecolitan

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2006, 08:59:10 PM »

Result of Quiz :: What philosophy do you follow? (v1.03)
created by arocoun To create your own quiz, click here
 
You scored as Hedonism. 


 
Your life is guided by the principles of Hedonism: You believe that pleasure is a great, or the greatest, good; and you try to enjoy life�s pleasures as much as you can.

�Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!�

More info at Arocoun's Wikipedia User Page...
 
Hedonismb 80%
Existentialism 75%
Nihilism 70%
Strong Egoism 50%
Justice (Fairness) 45%
Utilitarianism 40%
Kantianism 35%
Divine Command 25%
Apathy 20%
 
 
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Rillion

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2006, 06:14:36 AM »

Johnson....

First, guesses are not beliefs.  I could guess all day about what kind of gods there might be (and what colors socks they're wearing) and that doesn't mean I've formed a belief about anything.  It's just wild speculation, just like your thoughts about my socks.  The only sensible answer for you to give regarding my socks is "I don't know.  I have no reason to believe anything in particular about them," which is the same answer I give regarding God.  Some gods seem more or less likely than others, just like some socks do.  But that's about it.  Even if somebody held a gun to my head and said "ANSWER!  What kind of god is there?!"  I could suggest something, but that doesn't mean I believe it.  You can't believe things on command....all you can do is say you do.  I couldn't make myself have an opinion about your socks (or gods) if I tried.  And if you were omniscient, you could look at my brain and tell the difference.

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In order, I thought: purple, pink, blue. Then I thought they were perhaps striped... but I don't know your sense of style well enough to know if you'd adopt a striped sock... so I figured I's stick with a simple solid color.

Close.  They were green, yellow, and brown striped.   :)

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I entirely agree with what you've said here on principle. Where I don't agree is with your choice to shorten Agnostic Atheist down to Atheist.

I haven't.  The fact is that I am an atheist, and if somebody is curious about what kind of atheist I am, I can tell them that I am an agnostic atheist (no need for capital letters; it's not a title).

Quote
Consensus implies that atheist means a DISbeliever.

This may be so (I am not actually sure it is), however it A) does not follow the etymology of the word, and B) does not allow for preciseness in terms of clarifying knowledge vs. belief.  So I don't use it.  Generally speaking, labels (especially religious ones) don't imply much about your actual beliefs anyway.  And contrary to what you might believe, I don't generally go around telling people that I have any  particular label regarding religious belief.  Most of the time I find it irrelevant. 
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2006, 01:11:12 AM »

Johnson....

First, guesses are not beliefs.  I could guess all day about what kind of gods there might be (and what colors socks they're wearing) and that doesn't mean I've formed a belief about anything.  It's just wild speculation, just like your thoughts about my socks.  The only sensible answer for you to give regarding my socks is "I don't know.  I have no reason to believe anything in particular about them," which is the same answer I give regarding God.  Some gods seem more or less likely than others, just like some socks do.  But that's about it.  Even if somebody held a gun to my head and said "ANSWER!  What kind of god is there?!"  I could suggest something, but that doesn't mean I believe it.

I'm sorry if I can't agree with you that the entire religion of say... Christianity... or... Catholocism... is anything more than a guess. Seeing as EVERYTHING in the religion links to, and hinges upon, something for which there is absolutely no evidence... It's a guess. A guess, is absolutley a belief, the only thing you are discussing with me, is degrees of willingness to take action based upon that guess/belief. The willingness to take action, really doesn't change the ephemeral and ridiculous nature of what a belief is.

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You can't believe things on command....all you can do is say you do.  I couldn't make myself have an opinion about your socks (or gods) if I tried.  And if you were omniscient, you could look at my brain and tell the difference.
Really? I don't believe that. People make guesses. It's what our brain as a self organizing system does. Sure, maybe YOU aren't willing to take action on it. YOU are also not the type of person to believe in a god for which there is no evidence, just as you are not willing to kill for that same idea. People believe things on command all the time, what do you think church is for? or the concepts of sins and hellfire and damnation? http://www.prisonexp.org/

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Quote
In order, I thought: purple, pink, blue. Then I thought they were perhaps striped... but I don't know your sense of style well enough to know if you'd adopt a striped sock... so I figured I's stick with a simple solid color.

Close.  They were green, yellow, and brown striped.   :)

Damn, I forgot my psyhic projection sees everything as a negative!   8)

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I entirely agree with what you've said here on principle. Where I don't agree is with your choice to shorten Agnostic Atheist down to Atheist.

I haven't.  The fact is that I am an atheist, and if somebody is curious about what kind of atheist I am, I can tell them that I am an agnostic atheist (no need for capital letters; it's not a title).
It is if you do it right! (I'll eat your entrails on my TUMMY!)



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Consensus implies that atheist means a DISbeliever.

This may be so (I am not actually sure it is), however it A) does not follow the etymology of the word, and B) does not allow for preciseness in terms of clarifying knowledge vs. belief.  So I don't use it.  Generally speaking, labels (especially religious ones) don't imply much about your actual beliefs anyway.  And contrary to what you might believe, I don't generally go around telling people that I have any  particular label regarding religious belief.  Most of the time I find it irrelevant. 

Oh, that's sad. I guess it's sort of Jeffersonian. I think it's important to question irrational things as often as possible. I hate the fact that society has settled to this conclusion that ettiquette demands that any religious claims go unquestioned in polite company, no matter how ridiculous they might be. I side with Sam Harris on this one, I think it's time to question religion as often as any other irrationality would be questioned. To that end, I do often broadcast my stances on religion... You can call me a prostelyzer... or a peace activist... whichever. ;) (I, of course, think the notion presented in that southpark episode that atheists would find something silly to have wars over in lieu of religion is totally inaccurate)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 01:38:33 AM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Rillion

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2006, 10:12:42 AM »

I'm sorry if I can't agree with you that the entire religion of say... Christianity... or... Catholocism... is anything more than a guess. Seeing as EVERYTHING in the religion links to, and hinges upon, something for which there is absolutely no evidence... It's a guess.

Next time you talk to a Christian, ask him if his belief system is a guess.  What do you think he's going to say?

Again, you're re-interpreting other people's beliefs according to what you  believe to be their logical conclusion.  You might think there's no evidence for religious belief (and I would agree with you), but a lot of religious people feel very differently.  They might call it faith, but if there's no evidence whatsoever then they might as well believe one religion as another, and that idea is of course anathema since most religions by far are exclusivist.  They are not guessers.  They are believers. 

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A guess, is absolutley a belief

Eh, no, we're just not gonna agree on this one.  I believe I am wearing a blue t-shirt right now-- I don't need  to guess, because I can just look down at it.  I have to guess what color shirt you  are wearing. They are two entirely different modes of thinking. 

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People believe things on command all the time, what do you think church is for?

They don't believe simply because they are commanded.  They believe because they have already bought into the system, and the things they are told in church are part of that system.  If, in your opinion, there is a reason (however idiotic) for believing something, then you are not believing it merely on command. 

And by the way, i don't think church is really for making people believe things....it's more for making people feel good about what they already believe.

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Damn, I forgot my psyhic projection sees everything as a negative!   Cool

Spooky!

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I think it's important to question irrational things as often as possible. I hate the fact that society has settled to this conclusion that ettiquette demands that any religious claims go unquestioned in polite company, no matter how ridiculous they might be.

Oh, it's not out of etiquette....it's because I spend a good twelve hours a day thinking and reading about religion, so my own beliefs about it sort of become beside the point.  Not to mention, I think all of my friends, and most everybody I interact with on a daily basis, is also an atheist or at least a benign "something-ist."  Tell them you're an atheist and response is "Okay, so what?"  I went to a conference last week on various topics related to evolution and religion, and at dinner that night we went around the table telling our "de-conversion" story.  The guy to my left was a former theologian who now leads a crusade (har) to keep theology from being taught at American state universities. 

As for the irrationality-- I already know religion is not rational, in the sense of interpreting the world accurately.  What I find more interesting is how it might be rational in terms of people's psychology, and in terms of our evolution.  Why does religion exist?  What purpose might it serve that keeps it sticking around?  Might it be adaptive, wholly or in part, or might it be a byproduct of something else?  The sort of thing Daniel Dennett talks about in his recent book Breaking the Spell.  If you haven't read it already, I would strongly recommend it. 

Also, you might be interested in this article in Wired: "The Church of Non-Believers"  http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/atheism.html
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 10:30:02 AM by Rillion »
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joeshmo

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2006, 12:47:44 PM »

Kantian-Hedonist.  EVERYONE gets laid.

Kantianism 80%
Hedonism 70%
Strong Egoism 65%
Existentialism 55%
Justice (Fairness) 50%
Utilitarianism 35%
Nihilism 20%
Apathy 10%
Divine Command 0%
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2006, 12:50:57 PM »

Kantian-Hedonist.  EVERYONE gets laid.

This is definitely the type of person you want to hang out with.
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

joeshmo

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #115 on: November 12, 2006, 01:24:13 PM »

thanks, when are you and the big T moving to NH?
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aquabanianskakid

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #116 on: November 12, 2006, 01:32:28 PM »

Damnit, I want to get laid. Where are the invitations?
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Taors

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #117 on: November 12, 2006, 07:00:01 PM »

Damnit, I want to get laid. Where are the invitations?

Seconded.
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Jason Kauppinen

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2006, 10:37:47 PM »

Strong Egoism
   
   90%

Existentialism
   
   70%

Kantianism
   
   65%

Justice (Fairness)
   
   60%

Hedonism
   
   55%

Utilitarianism
   
   25%

Nihilism
   
   10%

Apathy
   
   0%

Divine Command
   
   0%
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #119 on: November 21, 2006, 02:21:43 AM »

You scored as Hedonism.

Your life is guided by the principles of Hedonism: You believe that pleasure is a great, or the greatest, good; and you try to enjoy life?s pleasures as much as you can.

?Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!?
Existentialism 100%
Hedonism 100%
Utilitarianism 75%
Justice (Fairness) 75%
Strong Egoism 65%
Kantianism 40%
Nihilism 20%
Divine Command 0%
Apathy 0%

Its funny, I think that I am probably a little more Utilitarian, than Hedonistic or Existential. Oh well.
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