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Mark is a Nihilist, What are you? (Only vote AFTER taking the 36 Question Quiz)

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Author Topic: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?  (Read 40419 times)

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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2006, 01:38:14 AM »

Yeah I can tell by the speed of your post you didn't READ any of that... or even consider what I was saying before you replied to me. Why do I know that? Because I was agreeing with you.

I was agreeing with you.. and also going a step further...

by pointing out that the only real atheism is now called strong atheism...
but that there are TWO categories of agnosticism... strong and weak... and those do have a distinction.
What is now called weak atheism is BS, and is actually a form of agnosticism.

Then of course there is agnostic theism...
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 01:41:41 AM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Ecolitan

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2006, 01:48:49 AM »

There was a 14 min interval...  Are you calling me stupid?  I read just fine.  I also fried an egg at the same time.  As far as what you said.  I noticed both had a #2 beside them.  It implies that you think they are equally legitimate terms.  Alas, they are now because people are stupid.  I don't like it though.  It confuses things.  Agnostic has always been a big tent.  Now both atheist AND agnostic are big overlapping tents.  Both words are less accurate for it.

edit: Agnostic is probably no less precise.  Atheist definitely is.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 01:50:42 AM by Roycerson »
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2006, 02:00:05 AM »

I see the confusion... no... I don't think they are equally legitimate. I think Weak Atheism is fictional. I was trying to imply that weak atheism and strong agnosticism are one and the same, but that the REAL label for both is simply strong agnosticism.

As far is any implications about your intelligence... No, I was saying that I didn't think you had actually read or considered any of what I posted, even though you were replying directly to me. It seemed like you just assumed I was defending Rillion's position, and therefore struck a defensive stance of your own, whereas I believed if you had spent some more time on the post you were addressing... (mine) you might have noticed that I was agreeing with you.
So, it had nothing to do with intelligence, but rather, patience. 

on the last page of this thread, I addressed the exact same comment you did of Rillion's... saying something very similar to your quote of
"that's retarded" but... while annoyingly making use of a dictionary and giving a long explanation.  :D

We are generally in agreement about the words atheist and agnostic... It will be up to her to defend her irrational position on this.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 02:02:05 AM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

zebraflood

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2006, 02:05:20 AM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_agnosticism

Strong agnosticism, then, equates to weak atheism.  If you assert that we can't know whether or not there is a god, then you do not believe in a god and therefore are a weak atheist. 

That's retarded.  This is a perfect illustration of how the word atheist got all fucked up.   Strong agnostics are exactly that....agnostic.  If you think that makes them atheists than that's because your totally unaware that atheism is supposed to mean an affirmative belief in the non-existence of god.  Atheists started backpeddling on that when they realized that would make atheism a religion.  So guess what all you atheists out there who do not have an affirmative belief in the non-existence of god.....  You're agnostic.

There are two categories: theistic and atheistic. Theism is belief, and atheism is unbelief (that is, the lack of). Under these two headings any further specifics of ones personal situation can be listed. For example, under theistic one might put christianity or judaism or hindu. Under atheistic one could put 'hates God' or 'has never heard of God' or maybe even something like buddhism or something. What's unique about agnosticism is that it can feasibly be put under either one of these headings. What it cannot do is be under both of them for one person at one time. Something cannot be both a and not a at the same time in the same way. Agnosticism is an added distinction to either atheism or theism, but can't be both of those at once, and therefore cannot stand by itself. The term agnostic is too ambiguous to not include this distinction. There is an automatic assumption with agnosticism that agnostic atheism is meant, and I guess that's fine, but it's still a form of atheism.

This weak/strong business is silly. Those are not exclusive terms, those are further clarifications, just like agnosticism is.
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2006, 02:17:13 AM »

Then you haven't read the defintions for weak and strong agnosticism... it makes a lot of sense, and they are important distinctions...

The weak and strong business is only silly in regards to atheism.

Strong Agnosticism = The existence or lack of existence of a god(s) is UNKNOWABLE.
Weak Agnosticism = The existence or lack of existence of a god(s) is CURRENTLY UNKNOWN, but is not necessarily unknowable.

I think there is a huge difference.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 02:20:30 AM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

zebraflood

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2006, 02:26:26 AM »

Then you haven't read the defintions for weak and strong agnosticism... it makes a lot of sense, and they are important distinctions...

The weak and strong business is only silly in regards to atheism.

I wasn't saying the weak/strong was completely unnecessary, only that they are clarifications of ones position only. I'm willing to concede that using agnostic as an exclusive term might make more sense economically, as saying you were a strong agnostic atheist might get kind of wordy and tiring after a while, but everything I said still stands. Everything in the world is either a or not a. If you are not a CD player then you are logically a not a CD player. If you are not a theist, then it logically follows that you are an atheist.
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2006, 02:35:18 AM »

If you are not a theist, then it logically follows that you are an atheist.

While this is technically true. It has also been rapidly discovered that most of the religious (and probably just most PEOPLE) are far too stupid to comprehend the definitions

# theism — roughly, the opinion that gods or deities exist
# atheism — roughly, an absence of belief in any gods or deities

and instead choose to interpret an absence of belief to be the presence of disbelief.

Atheists have generally accepted this to be true. This is why the distinction of AGNOSTIC and ATHEIST was created. For stupid people. Therefore atheist has widely become the accepted term for one who actively believes there is no god(s).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 02:39:32 AM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Ecolitan

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2006, 02:49:06 AM »

Theology is about religion.  Not deities.  For example buddhism, taoism and other spiritual philosophies would be included in a study of theology whether or not they include deities.  So strictly I'd think that a/theist wouldn't be w/ w/o deities but w/ w/o religion.  That would put Buddhism on the theism side and leave atheism for those that that don't believe in any sort of theology.

edit: Dictionary.com says that the root theo has to do with deities as does theism but theology does not necessarily.  Merriam-Webster says that theism is not just the belief in deity but a creator of humanity.  The free dictionary says that theism includes a "supernatural power" but adds "control human destiny".    Admittedly I haven't found a definition of "theism" that includes buddhism but I have found a definition of theology that includes buddhism.  I think if theology fits than theism must even if no one has written it down.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 03:04:21 AM by Roycerson »
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2006, 02:53:06 AM »

Buddhism is on the theism side becuase they believe in a deity.

EDIT: the prefix is THE not THEO.

ology, ocracy, ism... all suffixes.

EDIT #2 from Greek [theorein, theoria]; Latin [theoria]
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 02:59:07 AM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

zebraflood

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2006, 03:05:41 AM »

Therefore atheist has widely become the accepted term for one who actively believes there is no god(s).

You're right, but it's still technically incorrect.

Theology is about religion.  Not deities.  For example buddhism and other spiritual philosophies would be included in a study of theology whether or not they include deities.  So strictly I'd think that a/theist wouldn't be w/ w/o deities but w/ w/o religion.  That would put Buddhism on the theism side and leave atheism for those that that don't believe in any sort of theology.

I believe that technically the terms a/theism are limited to deities only. Theology is the study of religion, so it follows that this would include study of all religions, not just those involving supernatural beings.

Buddhism is on the theism side becuase they believe in a deity.


I pulled Buddhism from Wikipedia itself, which defined it as an atheistic religion. Though after looking again it actually says Zen Buddhism. Maybe there's a difference. I don't know enough about it.
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2006, 03:06:36 AM »

hahaha that's great... http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/2136/?letter=T&spage=4

derived from the same word as THEORY. THEOREM. THEORETICAL.

Almost like an ancient joke passed down and hidden in language to pat agnostics on the back.
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Ecolitan

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2006, 03:09:54 AM »

Buddhists don't necessarily believe in a deity...  Unless you consider Buddha himself a deity.

I got different results for derivations.  Theoria for theory...  Theo/Theokratia for theocracy.  I can't prove it but I bet they have a common root previous to greek.

Where does that put taoism?   Is taoism atheist?  It's aDeist for sure but do deist and theist mean the same?
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zebraflood

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2006, 03:11:05 AM »

From Wikipedia:

There are many religions which are theistic, and many others which are atheistic.

    * Some theistic religions are: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Saivism, Vaishnavism, Bahá'í, and Sikhism.
    * Some atheistic religions are: Taoism, Confucianism, and Zen Buddhism.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2006, 03:12:30 AM »

hahaha that's great... http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/2136/?letter=T&spage=4

derived from the same word as THEORY. THEOREM. THEORETICAL.

Almost like an ancient joke passed down and hidden in language to pat agnostics on the back.

I knew it.  It's too coincidental to be a coincidence.  This is fun....  I like words.
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Johnson

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Re: Mark is a Nihilist, What are you?
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2006, 03:13:28 AM »

Buddhism is on the theism side becuase they believe in a deity.
I pulled Buddhism from Wikipedia itself, which defined it as an atheistic religion. Though after looking again it actually says Zen Buddhism. Maybe there's a difference. I don't know enough about it.

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha
A common misconception views Buddha as the Buddhist counterpart to “God”; Buddhism, however, is non-theistic (i.e., in general it does not teach the existence of a supreme creator god (see God in Buddhism) or depend on any supreme being for enlightenment; Buddha is a guide and teacher who points the way to nirvana).

I think they are quite confused.
At best they are pushing their luck... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand
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