Libertarian Socialism vs State Capitalism

Libertarian Socialism

21 (80.8%)

State Capitalism

5 (19.2%)

Total Members Voted: 10

[Zhwazi]

Anyone who is willing to use the state to initiate force is not a libertarian. THEY ARE WILLING TO USE FORCE FOR SOCIAL GOALS so how can they believe in voluntary society.

By that definition, the Libertarian Party is not even libertarian. Much less the minarchists of whatever sort. So of course libertarian socialists aren't all "libertarians" by your definition.

[John Shaw]

<<< Didn't vote.

"Interesting game. The only winning move is not to play." - WOPR/Joshua

[MobileDigit]

Its exhausting arguing with Keti, man. You know you're right, but he just keeps going like the fucking Energizer bunny.

That's because he is right.

[MobileDigit]

he, like you, argues based on the fluidity of the English languages, twisting terms to suit your ends.

What nonsense.

[jckeyser]

Its exhausting arguing with Keti, man. You know you're right, but he just keeps going like the fucking Energizer bunny.

That's because he is right.

Here we go. How does changing the definitions of words make someone right?

[Zhwazi]

Here we go. How does changing the definitions of words make someone right?

I'm not the one changing the definitions of the words. I'm using them in the way most people use the words.

[Travis]

Anyone who is willing to use the state to initiate force is not a libertarian. THEY ARE WILLING TO USE FORCE FOR SOCIAL GOALS so how can they believe in voluntary society.

By that definition, the Libertarian Party is not even libertarian. Much less the minarchists of whatever sort. So of course libertarian socialists aren't all "libertarians" by your definition.

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

[ladyattis]

Does anyone remember the abandoned factory town from Atlas Shrugged?  It was once productive, but had been destroyed by full implementation of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"?  THAT is socialism, and as described was quite likely fully voluntary ("libertarian").  It is a race to the bottom that turns good people into leeches.  50% capitalism is 50% better than that.

QFT!

-- Brede

[Zhwazi]

Anyone who is willing to use the state to initiate force is not a libertarian. THEY ARE WILLING TO USE FORCE FOR SOCIAL GOALS so how can they believe in voluntary society.

By that definition, the Libertarian Party is not even libertarian. Much less the minarchists of whatever sort. So of course libertarian socialists aren't all "libertarians" by your definition.

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

I've seen the video a dozen times. The fact remains: The Libertarian Party is no more libertarian than libertarian socialism.

[Travis]

Anyone who is willing to use the state to initiate force is not a libertarian. THEY ARE WILLING TO USE FORCE FOR SOCIAL GOALS so how can they believe in voluntary society.

By that definition, the Libertarian Party is not even libertarian. Much less the minarchists of whatever sort. So of course libertarian socialists aren't all "libertarians" by your definition.

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

I've seen the video a dozen times. The fact remains: The Libertarian Party is no more libertarian than libertarian socialism.

If you think I give a shit about the LP your sadly mistaken. The LP, like all political groups, likes to use eupheisms, code words, "figures of speech", etc. Words in politics have no consistency, words in philosophy do. Please don't mistake me with the political groupies.

[Zhwazi]

If you think I give a shit about the LP your sadly mistaken. The LP, like all political groups, likes to use eupheisms, code words, "figures of speech", etc. Words in politics have no consistency, words in philosophy do. Please don't mistake me with the political groupies.

I didn't mean to imply that you did. I'm just saying that your definition of libertarian is so narrow that almost nothing is libertarian. For purposes of this poll, let's assume they hate the state more than the market. I've got an Ancom friend that's like that.

[Travis]

Give an outline Libertarian Socialism and then explain the logistics of Libertarian Socialism without contradicting yourself.

If I must vote I'd like to be an informed voter.

[Zhwazi]

Libertarian socialism is a category of ideas, not a specific system. That's like asking me to proscribe a market anarchist system. What do you want? The paleolibertarian's view? The agorist's view? The mutualist's ideas? Stefan Molyneux's version?

There's a lot of libertarian socialist ideas. Anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism for instance. Or Benjamin Tucker's socialism. Mutualism is both market anarchism and socialism. What exactly do you want described?

You wiki'd logistics, maybe if you'd wiki'd "libertarian socialism" you would have gotten what you're looking for.

[Travis]

Libertarian socialism is a category of ideas, not a specific system. That's like asking me to proscribe a market anarchist system. What do you want? The paleolibertarian's view? The agorist's view? The mutualist's ideas? Stefan Molyneux's version?

There's a lot of libertarian socialist ideas. Anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism for instance. Or Benjamin Tucker's socialism. Mutualism is both market anarchism and socialism. What exactly do you want described?

You wiki'd logistics, maybe if you'd wiki'd "libertarian socialism" you would have gotten what you're looking for.

So are you saying you can't do it?

I can give an overview of how logistics works in both an ancap society and a state capitalism society without listing specifics; it's not hard. I can also point out specific examples and ideas, your not even trying. Maybe, if it's too hard for you, you should narrow down the particular version of libertarian socialism that you favor.

I've wiki'd libertarian socialism plenty of times; I have yet to find anything that is both viable and non-contradictory.

[Zhwazi]

So are you saying you can't do it?

If I described it for you it would contradict a different form of LS, and I believe you would tell me I was wrong and that's not what it is because X-ism is LS and it says that's wrong, until I gave you exactly what you want in a contradictory system.

I can give an overview of how logistics works in both an ancap society and a state capitalism society without listing specifics; it's not hard. I can also point out specific examples and ideas, your not even trying. Maybe, if it's too hard for you, you should narrow down the particular version of libertarian socialism that you favor.

I don't favor any version of libertarian socialism.

I've wiki'd libertarian socialism plenty of times; I have yet to find anything that is both viable and non-contradictory.

Good for you. I never said libertarian socialism was viable.