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Poll

Is Mark a Cult Member?

Yes.
- 55 (45.1%)
No.
- 33 (27%)
Does the Free State Project count as a cult?
- 34 (27.9%)

Total Members Voted: 46


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Author Topic: Is Mark a Cult Member?  (Read 28283 times)

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aquabanianskakid

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2006, 06:07:54 PM »

I just I don't have to listen to another long spout about lanmark ever again. By saying "long" I mean anything over 30 seconds. Ians comments about it were funny at first, now they've gotten boring. If this had been my first show I probably still wouldn't be listening to the podcast. Not to mention I was considering becoming an AMPlifier, but this made me have second thoughts. I know you can't make us all happy, and I still have tons of faith in you guys, besides I have to have my fill of that wacky Paula.
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Slim

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2006, 06:31:42 PM »

I guess you could also call the AMP program a cult also!!!!
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aquabanianskakid

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2006, 06:42:33 PM »

True dat foo...?
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2006, 11:06:43 PM »

Heh.. you should have heard what Mark said after the show about rape and molestation and how the Landmark "philosophy" addresses those issues.  I decided not to bring that up on-air the next day because people would be shocked at how callous he has become as a result of his brainwashing.  (And I did not want to broach the subject again, as it has been thoroughly exhausted.)

Also, I really tried to understand what Mark was saying, but most of it was gobbledygook. 

Finally, I believe that the reason why some did not like the show is that it was 3 hours of conflict between us.  Usually you only get a little here, a little there, and a lot of agreement between us.  It was a lot to take.

That said, Mark and I had fun and we enjoyed the show.  As a bonus, listeners responded on-air from both sides, so overall it was a success.
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kayec

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2006, 11:45:57 PM »

Ian, are you jealous?  Really, you almost sound like you're mad because he went out and hand fun.

People everywhere do things that cost money that make them happy.  Some cost way more then $200 too.  I just took a course in hang gliding that cost almost $500, and now i need a glider $3,000.  Am i in a hang glider cult?  Should i be ashamed if i tell me friends and family about how good it was and suggest they should try it?

Give him a break, if he's not hurting anyone let him spend his money freely, however he decides to.  As a friend, just make sure his "donations" don't exceed his means, other than that smile and say "Hope your conference was fun".  Don't be his big daddy government.

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Skooma

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2006, 11:51:54 PM »

Quote
Does the Free State Project count as a cult?

That's more of a chicken/egg question.

Who was first? Libertarians or the FSP?

The FSP is like a lamp, it does not create the moths, the moths come to it.

Landmark makes the moths. It all depends on how a group does it.

Generally the FSP works on a trickle down model.

Regular people become Libertarians through many ways, this relatively small amounts of people stratify into varying degrees of Libertarian, the more hardcore ones and true believers go to the FSP.

Landmark takes people and turns them into one of them.
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Skooma

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2006, 12:33:29 AM »

Quote
Life is meaningless and empty

Wow, I figured that out completely on my own over the years.  :lol:
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ce

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2006, 01:44:28 AM »

I actually found this show entertaining. Ian was right about the conflict issue, with a plethora of calls as the proof. I was disturbed by the comments Mark was making and his stoic denial of the differing evidence presented.
I am always wary of groups or people who create a new vocabulary in a quasi-philosophic way. Certainly, most philosophers create new meanings to words but only after a strong argument to do so, as in Hobbes' or Hume's definition of "human nature" or Derrida's redefinition of "Narcissism". Landmark does not present any philosophical discourse into 'how' or 'why' they changed or created words, rather they expect the participants to simply submit to them. Without attaining any philosophical standard they are presenting words that have a 'blind author' and denies any counter-interpretation leaving the reader or participant with little else but their own personal knowledge or feeling. This opens a doorway to manipulating one's knowledge by giving Landmark an extreme and unfair one-way challenging of another's philosophical standing but at the same time denying any recourse. I'm sorry to say it but Mark has been duped by this group masquerading themselves as philosophers. They seem utterly uneducated as philosophers but seem very adept as tricksters. This most certainly is a cult.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2006, 01:48:43 AM »

Is FTL a cult?
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Johnson

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2006, 02:59:35 AM »

@skooma
The "is the FSP a cult" was just some humor... heh... ( :::wonders what you are like at parties::: )

As far as Landmark being a cult... It's unquestionably so.

They charge money to give psychological advice which they are not trained to give.
They use commonly known brainwashing and huxterism techniques that can be found in any common skeptic book or website.
From my experience watching the french video... I just looked this up.. and low and behold... Let's go through this list.

 THE PURPOSES AND TACTICS OF COERCIVE PERSUASION

Coercive persuasion or thought reform as it is sometimes known, is best understood as a coordinated system of graduated coercive influence and behavior control designed to deceptively and surreptitiously manipulate and influence individuals, usually in a group setting, in order for the originators of the program to profit in some way, normally financially or politically.

The essential strategy used by those operating such programs is to systematically select, sequence and coordinate numerous coercive persuasion tactics over CONTINUOUS PERIODS OF TIME. There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.

TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.

Does Landmark use Tactic one? Check.

TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)

Does Landmark use Tactic two? Check.

TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.

Does Landmark use Tactic Three? Check. This is one I'm sure Mark has to rationalize greatly.

TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.

Does Landmark use Tactic four? OH DEFINITELY Check.

TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.


Does Landmark use Tactic Five? Triple Check. It's called the Tear Down and Buildup... They tear you down and build you back up and make believe they helped.

TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.


Does Landmark use Tactic six? Check.

TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.).

Does Landmark use Tactic seven? Check.

On top of all that. they use aggressive marketing and prostelyzation to increase their membership through trusted colleages and family members in order to have an automatic in with which they can use to immediately begin with the above tactics.

There's no question that Landmark is a dangerous and potentially harmful organization. My father was a Scientologist, and so I have some personal experience speaking with someone who attended a pay-for-self-help group. He spent a good deal of money before ever finding out about the whole alien-xenu thing and left with a quickness. (He's actually now a Libertarian and despises scientology as complete quackpottery)

I hope Mark can realize this same thing and how worthless Landmark is before he ends up blowing more money into this group of fraudulent theives.

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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2006, 03:19:21 AM »

I dunno, the LP and FSP do a lot of the same stuff as Landmark Education.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

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ljossberir

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2006, 03:21:09 AM »

well, it's really just that Neitzche was a huge proponent of that whole "life is meaningless" - everything is teh suxxor - mentality.
In a way, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. He wasn't so much a nihilist as a doctor making a diagnosis - and that diagnosis proved quite accurate in the 20th century, which he took but a few breaths in.
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Johnson

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2006, 03:27:46 AM »

I dunno, the LP and FSP do a lot of the same stuff as Landmark Education.

Such as?
(You can cite the tactics I just listed in my post above if you want to make comparisons...)

Although.. I think it's all for naught considering the neither the LP nor the FSP charge any money... all the money they ever get is through voluntary donations which are not required to participate in anything they do.
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2006, 03:29:46 AM »

I dunno, the LP and FSP do a lot of the same stuff as Landmark Education.

Such as?
(You can cite the tactics I just listed in my post above if you want to make comparisons...)

Although.. I think it's all for naught considering the neither the LP nor the FSP charge any money... all the money they ever get is through voluntary donations which are not required to participate in anything they do.
Hey I'm not attacking either, you can check my myspace and see that I'm a supporter of both, but hey both want you to do all this phone back calling, donations, seminars, etc. and to spread the word to y;our friends, etc.  I just had this realization when I was listening to the episode last night.  thought it was kinda funny.  Whats this uber-secret that FTL will give away at the 10k mark?  I thought it might be something like that. heh....
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Is Mark a Cult Member?
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2006, 03:36:55 AM »

sorry, i'm a little intoxicated, apologizing for the typos in above post
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
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