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Do you see Libertarianism as the perfect political system, or is it a 'lesser of 3 evils' type of thing for you?

Its flawless
Its better than the mainstream parties
I am not a Libertarian.

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Author Topic: Is Libertarianism perfect?  (Read 13455 times)

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Brian Wolf

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Is Libertarianism perfect?
« on: November 21, 2006, 05:28:03 AM »

Personally, Libertarianism is the lesser of 3 evils.
I don't think that there is a political party that better fills my criteria for a good political party, so I have little problem voting Libertarian.
It seems as if a lot of Libertraians are just as convinced of the wisdom of their party as the republicans or the democrats and I was just wondering if anyone else feels the same way.
I guess if I was going to be oppressed by a group, I would rather be oppressed by capitalists because I wouldn't have as much of a problem shooting them, as I would shooting a cop.
I have met a cop or two who actually try to do good, and think that they are doing the right thing.
If they were just opressing me for a paycheck, then I wouldn't hesitate to off them.
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AlexLibman

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 06:38:47 AM »

Libertarianism is a political theory built on a finite set of principles.  That cannot be said about any other movement in politics today, and thus it is the only movement that can ever hope to achieve perfection.  No society can ever be "perfectly" socialist, because everyone is in the same boat, and the only way to make sure everyone on that boat is happy is to throw the dissidents overboard.  The question is - can we form a vision for a society that is as free as a human society can be, where everyone can choose what to do with his own boat?  And - can we implement it in real life, at least on a small scale at first?

Libertarians need to differentiate the Party and the Principle.  The Libertarian Party, being human, can never be perfect.  It must deal with political realities like electability, and the need to implement our ideas gradually, to give people time to adapt.  The Principle, on the other hand -- individual sovereignty through absolute self-ownership, leading to inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property -- is pretty close to perfect.  It can be made less perfect by saying, "life, liberty, property, and socially-subsidized pink fuzzy slippers for all!"  ... But can it be made more perfect?

Just as there are unsolved problems in other disciplines, Libertarianism is still vague or corruptible on a number of issues.  In includes specific conflicts of interests on issues like abortion and environmental risk.  About 90% of things you hear from environmentalists is crap, but the other 10% contains some serious questions.  Who owns the underground water that flows under both our properties?  Am I free to juggle nuclear warheads on my property?  Etc.

The more we discuss those issues, and the more we experiment with them in real-life situations, the closer to perfection Libertarianism becomes.  And that may include doing things outside the political realm, like taking private initiative to make sure the people who want their "pink fuzzy slippers" can get them without government handouts.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 06:56:43 AM by AlexLibman »
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Minsk

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2006, 06:50:19 AM »

There are so many divisions with the libertarian end of the spectrum, I am not sure where the "faith in the LP" impression came from. What most everyone does agree on is that the world being created from continual compromise between nanny state and corporate/religious state is a problem. Whether people want a smaller and less intrusive government, a Constitutionally limited government, a Constitutionally motivated government, something even smaller, or nothing at all... is there really a political option other than the LP?

I would rather you have a problem killing anyone, but ask yourself why you feel individuals who are designated military or police are different from individuals who are designated private security guards or random thugs, if their actions are the same. In the answer is a lot of one principle that leads to a libertarian outlook: We are all humans. We are all individuals. We are all equal; not in possessions, or in knowledge, but in morality.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2006, 10:00:31 AM »

Quote
Who owns the underground water that flows under both our properties?

that question is answered in NH.

it is all owned in common as an individual equal access opportunity right.

you are free to access and use so long as your use/access does not deny any other individual the equal right to the same.

the role of the government as the public trustee is to protect the integrity of the common asset to pass along to future generation and to insure everyone's equal rights are not infringed upon
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2006, 10:29:45 AM »


I would rather you have a problem killing anyone, but ask yourself why you feel individuals who are designated military or police are different from individuals who are designated private security guards or random thugs, if their actions are the same.

I actually do have a problem with killing anyone, but I would not hesitate to defend myself if necessary.
I think the difference between a 'policeman' and a private security guard or random thugs is motivation.
As I said before, I think that there is a chance that a policeman thinks that he is "doing the right thing" or "protecting the innocent" which are feelings I can relate to. To oppress someone for a profit is pure robbery.
That being said, I would still defend myself against the police, as discussed in this thread.
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Brian Wolf

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 10:38:43 AM »

Quote
Who owns the underground water that flows under both our properties?
that question is answered in NH.
it is all owned in common as an individual equal access opportunity right.
you are free to access and use so long as your use/access does not deny any other individual the equal right to the same.

If only this principle could be applied to land, one of my major difficulties with Libertarianism would disappear. But that is already being debated on another thread, so I won't debate it here.
Besides, you can't have everything, which is why I will probably stay with Libertarianism.
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Jason Orr

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2006, 10:43:17 AM »

Perfection cannot be achieved with a political party.  Libertarianism is a philosophy; the LP is simply a party that claims to follow that philosophy.  Personally, I think anyone with a real desire to achieve true freedom would be anarchist, but I completely understand why not al libertarians are (both practically and philosophically).  Do I think libertarianism is perfect?  "Perfect" being so subjective a term, it's difficult to say whether anything can be perfect.  I don't think "perfection" can be assessed objectively, so I hesitate to use that word.

What I will say is that libertarianism is the inevitable future of political thought.  Libertarians today are like 18th century abolitionists; they have morality on their side, but not popular support.  Give it a century or so and libertarian theory will be as obvious to the masses as abolition of slavery.
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The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money

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BenTucker

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2006, 11:40:28 AM »

Quote
Who owns the underground water that flows under both our properties?
that question is answered in NH.
it is all owned in common as an individual equal access opportunity right.
you are free to access and use so long as your use/access does not deny any other individual the equal right to the same.

If only this principle could be applied to land, one of my major difficulties with Libertarianism would disappear.

it is in NH but needs to tweaked a bit...

shift taxes off of buildings and onto land values only
return the collected economic rent to everyone equally and directly within the community
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 02:09:43 PM »

I believe what he's trying to say here is that Libertarianism isn't perfect but Mutualist Green Distributive Tribal Georgism is flawed only so far as it is only understood by 12 people in the entire world and only 6 of them agree with it.  Of those only 4 can say it with a straight face while only 2 of them dare to advocate it.  It's a long road for the Mutualist Green Distributive Tribal Georgists but at least they have right on their side and a large database of copy and paste ready material sure to provide context appropriate information with I Ching accuracy.
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mrapplecastle

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 03:06:43 PM »

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Brian Wolf

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2006, 03:34:37 PM »

I believe what he's trying to say here is that Libertarianism isn't perfect but Mutualist Green Distributive Tribal Georgism is flawed only so far as it is only understood by 12 people in the entire world and only 6 of them agree with it.  Of those only 4 can say it with a straight face while only 2 of them dare to advocate it.  It's a long road for the Mutualist Green Distributive Tribal Georgists but at least they have right on their side and a large database of copy and paste ready material sure to provide context appropriate information with I Ching accuracy.
:lol:


Edit: Just so no one is confused, I said exactly what I meant, regardless of what ignorant, smug, white-bread, know-it-all internet trolls think I mean.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 03:43:25 PM by Brian Wolf »
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Johnny_

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 04:18:46 PM »

Libertarianism to me is a perfect political philosophy.  "Don't use government force to achieve your personal goals", "Don't allow the government to do a task you wouldn't let your neighbor", etc, are all pretty much my personal "perfect" governing philosophy.

At the same time though, politics is made up of humans.  And we make mistakes, don't adhere perfectly to our philosophies and so on.  So in that respect, it's not perfect because fallible people are implementing it.  And often times it can be difficult to turn the philosophy of libertarianism into laws and rules; as someone before me mentioned there are still some things that Libertarians have a hard time agreeing with and the "correct" solution isn't known.

But on an abstract level, I do think libertarianism is the perfect political philosophy for anyone who believes in liberty.
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dominick

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2006, 05:03:56 PM »

Personally, Libertarianism is the lesser of 3 evils.
I don't think that there is a political party that better fills my criteria for a good political party, so I have little problem voting Libertarian.
It seems as if a lot of Libertraians are just as convinced of the wisdom of their party as the republicans or the democrats and I was just wondering if anyone else feels the same way.
I guess if I was going to be oppressed by a group, I would rather be oppressed by capitalists because I wouldn't have as much of a problem shooting them, as I would shooting a cop.
I have met a cop or two who actually try to do good, and think that they are doing the right thing.
If they were just opressing me for a paycheck, then I wouldn't hesitate to off them.
As I see it Liberrtarianism is as close as you can get to perfection without actually being perfect.
The problem I have with it is that if I don't accept the elected Libertarian ruler, I still end up getting shot.

dominick
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2006, 06:08:47 PM »

Edit: Just so no one is confused, I said exactly what I meant, regardless of what ignorant, smug, white-bread, know-it-all internet trolls think I mean.

holy crap do we have communication issues.  That was totally funny if you're not so sensitive.  Also, I wasn't referring to you but to BillG aka Ben Tucker aka Frank Chodorov.

And furthermore, I'm one of those Mutual Georgist etc. etc. I don't remember the rests that I was talking about.  Did I fuck your woman? 


edit:  I suppose I'm not really a mutual geo...........  Bill's the only one I know that has at one point or another claimed ALL those titles (except tribalist...  I threw that in for sheer syllable quantity). 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 06:17:06 PM by Roycerson »
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velojym

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Re: Is Libertarianism perfect?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2006, 06:10:32 PM »

Nothing's perfect, and anytime I hear the fevered rantings of someone who claims to promote a 'perfect' system,
red flags go up. Some are more entertaining than others. Sorry, Ben. You aren't one of 'em... rather more like a
would-be cult leader trying to drum up support for a welfare state.
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We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force.
-Ayn Rand
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