Is keti debatable?

no he can hardly be debated with

yes he can be debated with properly

other... I'll explain in the thread

this poll is utterly pointless and/or uninteresting

[iWantToLiveFree]

Here is a conversation Keti and I had last night. I am posting it here with his, somewhat reluctant, permission. I wonder what others think and whether I should ever attempt to have a serious discussion with him again. Or perhaps it is I that was being silly for some reason..

I have to break this in several posts as it is a bit long. The important stuff is in the last posts but I did paste the whole thing to be fair with Keti as he "does not trust me" to select the important parts.

I consider the actual discussion to begin with the other posts... but you may want to read the whole thing I guess.
I understand it is rather long and most of you will not want to read it.. please do not vote in this poll in that case

(03:35:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I'm sure you already know about this.. but just in case..
(03:35:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: http://www.sexwork.com/family/dolphins1.html
(03:53:14 AM) Keti: Yes.
(03:53:41 AM) Keti: http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=16298.30
(03:53:44 AM) iWantToLiveFree: makes it sound romantic.. weird but romantic
(03:53:49 AM) Keti: Note the quoted post at the top of the page
(03:54:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: oh I wasn't sure I wanted to see that for real... I was kinda glad there weren't any photos
(03:55:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: now I've got a whole video to watch
(03:55:04 AM) Keti: I'm not Taors.
(03:55:10 AM) Keti: It's not a very long video
(03:55:37 AM) iWantToLiveFree: Taors?
(03:55:40 AM) Keti: Ed
(03:55:44 AM) Keti: Ed == Taors
(03:55:46 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok
(03:55:47 AM) Keti: http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C656AAFB37E288C0
(03:55:53 AM) Keti: That's a youtube playlist I made
(03:55:57 AM) Keti: If you want video.
(03:56:00 AM) Keti: No humans.
(03:57:15 AM) iWantToLiveFree: gees... I almost felt the excitement while reading it.. I can only try to image what it does to you
(03:57:37 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but you haven't done it yet... gotta be frustrating as hell
(03:58:19 AM) Keti: Guides like this were half of what did this to me.
(03:58:50 AM) iWantToLiveFree: what about the other half?
(04:00:37 AM) Keti: I'm not totally sure.
(04:00:59 AM) Keti: I've always liked dolphins, just not always sexually.
(04:01:17 AM) Keti: Just in a "really cool animal" way
(04:02:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah same here.. although I haven't gone over to the "I want to have sex with them as well" side just yet
(04:02:58 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they're cool and I'd enjoy spending time with some... even bonding somehow perhaps
(04:03:28 AM) iWantToLiveFree: sex... not so much interested except perhaps masturbating a female.. and even that would take some getting used to the idea
(04:04:28 AM) iWantToLiveFree: (the female part is stupid though.. but you know, hard to ignore this part of my mind which raises red flags when talking male to male sex)
(04:04:44 AM) Keti: I've found there's actually a lot more interest in it than I would have thought
(04:04:52 AM) Keti: I've had a few people ask me for some of my porn
(04:05:13 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I would never have guessed you had any
(04:05:21 AM) Keti: You didn't see that pic?
(04:05:24 AM) iWantToLiveFree: (or that dolphin porn existed at all)
(04:05:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: what pic?
(04:05:39 AM) Keti: http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/2415/imgpiechartiu1.png
(04:05:45 AM) Keti: My image folder.
(04:05:56 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah just saw it in the thread
(04:06:19 AM) Keti: Rule 34. It exists.
(04:07:23 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so the red part is you delphinic porn?
(04:08:05 AM) Keti: Except for the wedge at about 10:30 labelled "clean"
(04:08:22 AM) Keti: Everything wrapped around the middle red slice, yes
(04:09:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: man.. how much space does it take?
(04:09:40 AM) Keti: Lemme check.
(04:11:46 AM) Keti: That big, outermost red slice is 95 megs
(04:12:06 AM) Keti: The one after that is 60 megs
(04:12:47 AM) Keti: So it looks like the whole image folder is about 400 megs, making about 270 or so megs of DP
(04:12:47 AM) iWantToLiveFree: man.. how could so much dolphin porn even exist.. wow you must have spent countless hours - make that weeks - getting it
(04:13:21 AM) Keti: Fortunately I found a site by somebody elso who collects this stuff
(04:13:39 AM) Keti: It was REALLY slow going until I found him
(04:14:00 AM) Keti: Nothing much but google image searches and drawings
(04:14:16 AM) Keti: there's enough drawings if you count anthro art
(04:15:08 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I guess.. WOW is in order
(04:16:04 AM) Keti: There's some people on dA that draw this kind of stuff
(04:16:05 AM) Keti: http://delphinidae.deviantart.com/
(04:16:25 AM) Keti: http://phinna.deviantart.com/
(04:17:09 AM) Keti: Phinna's old site is down now
(04:17:29 AM) Keti: She doesn't post any of her dirty stuff on her dA gallery
(04:17:38 AM) Keti: Most of it was dirty though
(04:18:13 AM) iWantToLiveFree: looks clean so far
(04:18:41 AM) Keti: Some of her old stuff was of kinda low quality so I went and redid some of it in GIMP
(04:20:31 AM) Keti: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8463/phinagezheditwb1.png
(04:20:35 AM) Keti: There's something I redid
(04:20:52 AM) Keti: This is the remake
(04:21:25 AM) Keti: All the art in Phinna's dA gallery is her sucky art.
(04:22:17 AM) Keti: http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4743/phinageai5.jpg
(04:22:21 AM) Keti: The original, for comparison
(04:22:42 AM) Keti: Well drawn, just poor image/tool quality
(04:23:21 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah well drawn still
(04:23:39 AM) iWantToLiveFree: oh yeah something I wondered about..
(04:23:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: do women turn you on? (or men?)
(04:24:10 AM) Keti: Yes to women, men, not really.
(04:25:00 AM) iWantToLiveFree: does gender matter as far as you are concerned? (with dolphins)
(04:25:21 AM) Keti: No.
(04:25:32 AM) Keti: I'd be equally happy to be with either
(04:26:06 AM) iWantToLiveFree: including when attempting to have sex?
(04:26:26 AM) Keti: Yeah
(04:27:23 AM) Keti: Except for like I said, no anal from the male, at least unless other experience tells me those warnings are overblown, and even then, still preferring other ways
(04:28:07 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah sounds reasonable
(04:28:29 AM) iWantToLiveFree: would you consider oral sex with a male?
(04:28:33 AM) Keti: Yeah
(04:29:06 AM) iWantToLiveFree: that's risky as well
(04:29:18 AM) Keti: Not from what I've seen.
(04:29:41 AM) Keti: Which leads me to think that the anal threat might be overblown.
(04:29:42 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you've shown me one video.. but it doesn't show much
(04:30:33 AM) Keti: Well the mouth is well-constructed to have foreign objects of varying texture and harness and whatnot put into it, so it's a lot tougher than the hindquarters.
(04:30:37 AM) iWantToLiveFree: [1] I wouldn't put anything up my butt unless I had to for medical reasons
(04:31:00 AM) iWantToLiveFree: [2] I don't think the dolphins know what they're getting into
(04:31:31 AM) Keti: I've seen video of males doing it in the blowhole, I think they know how the alternative orifice thing works
(04:31:58 AM) iWantToLiveFree: wow dolphins really are intelligent
(04:32:19 AM) Keti: Yep.
(04:33:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: up until tonight I thought this was merely some sort of thought experiment on your part
(04:34:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: for sure I suspected others could be into it as well.. but man I was far from suspecting that there could be so many and that there was dolphin porn.. and actual human/dolphin sexual interactions
(04:34:13 AM) Keti: Rule 34.
(04:34:45 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah well sometimes seeing is believing
(04:35:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: now I do believe it does exist
(04:35:59 AM) iWantToLiveFree: from what I've read it would seem dolphins (as a species) are more likely to seek these sexual encounters with humans than humans are (those with access to dolphins)
(04:36:12 AM) Keti: It would seem, wouldn't it?
(04:36:39 AM) Keti: Dolphins are smart enough not to make religions with dumb taboos about what you can and can't throw rocks at people for fucking.
(04:37:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I guess they are every bit as curious as we are... but the moral roadblocks might be absent or on different things
(04:37:36 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah well I don't believe in that crap but I still wouldn't want to have sex with anything but a human female
(04:40:32 AM) Keti: See I might be wierd, but I'm trying to live in a world ahead of it's time, try to live in a way that if my life story were told to people 5000 years from now, having transcended humanity and maybe found other lifeforms and having totally freed themselves from religion and taboos, they wouldn't think of me as just another genetically preprogrammed human that couldn't reason their way into suppressing rules like that with no particular rational basis.
(04:40:55 AM) Keti: Or maybe that's just a convenient way for me to rationalize it.
(04:41:36 AM) Keti: Either way, wherever I see a rule that I can find no rational basis to obey, I'm gonna break it just to see what other people don't want me to see.
(04:42:00 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I see where you're coming from.. I like to think of myself as independent from preconceived unreasonable notions as well (which is partly self deception on my part, partly in error and partly true)
(04:43:26 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but wanting to have sex with dolphins is not something I find unreasonable
(04:44:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: attempting to do it if one has the desire to do so is a perfectly rational thing to do.. something I not only condone but encourage you to do (not that you would seek my blessing anyways)
(04:45:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I am not interested but that doesn't make my actions any more virtuous
(04:46:29 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but yeah some people would put you in jail (or in a psych ward) for merely thinking about it
(04:46:50 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they are the sickos... but they have the guns
(04:47:27 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I'm sure humanity will continue its virtuous trend toward being more tolerant and reasonable overall
(04:49:14 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no wonder seasteading is appealing to you
(04:49:42 AM) Keti: Actually that's a convenient side-benefit

[iWantToLiveFree]

(04:50:39 AM) iWantToLiveFree: see there's one thing I wouldn't be able to get from a relationship with a dolphin
(04:50:40 AM) Keti: Although I'd suspect the same people with a mindset that would lead them to consider seasteading would also be of a mindset that encourages tolerance and trying the kinds of things that would require tolerance
(04:51:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: meaningful discussions and learning
(04:51:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: cause really there's only so much you can do with a dolphin
(04:54:21 AM) Keti: Learn dolphinese.
(04:54:23 AM) Keti: Problem solved.
(04:54:31 AM) Keti: Obviously easier said than done, but we know they have a language
(04:54:38 AM) Keti: And we have the equipment to learn it
(04:54:45 AM) Keti: Why nobody is trying is beyond me
(04:55:08 AM) iWantToLiveFree: get to it amigo
(04:56:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: do you think dolphins would be able to discuss philosophy with us? understand the concept of "god" and laugh about it?
(04:59:02 AM) Keti: I don't know
(04:59:08 AM) Keti: I'd assume they could
(04:59:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: y would u?
(04:59:34 AM) Keti: Dolphins are really smart, but they don't have thumbs, so some people have speculated that they may have a much more introspective intelligence
(05:00:04 AM) Keti: Human brains are geared much more toward dealing with the world around, because we're physically good at it
(05:00:24 AM) Keti: Dolphins not so much, but that intelligence has got to be going towards something
(05:01:03 AM) iWantToLiveFree: it doesn't mean anything conclusive
(05:01:23 AM) Keti: Nope.
(05:02:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: at best you could deduce that IF they were able to reason to the same or a greater degree than humans can, then they are more likely to be focusing on different things
(05:02:29 AM) Keti: Well there's evidence that they can, and to a degree, do it better
(05:02:41 AM) Keti: There's an experiment I read about where they tried to test human and dolphin intelligence against each other
(05:02:59 AM) Keti: The test subject got a reward for doing something different.
(05:03:17 AM) Keti: What was being tested for what how long it would take the subject to figure this out
(05:03:33 AM) Keti: Humans and dolphins both figured it out after about the same period of time
(05:03:42 AM) Keti: But the reactions to the discovery were different
(05:04:04 AM) Keti: Humans got kinda annoyed and kinda relieved. Dolphins just kept becoming more and more creative.
(05:04:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: perhaps they simply valued the rewards more so than the humans did
(05:05:28 AM) iWantToLiveFree: perhaps you cannot generalize what the test subjects did to the whole population for each species
(05:05:52 AM) Keti: Or perhaps dolphins think differently.
(05:06:02 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes.. too many perhaps for me though
(05:06:07 AM) Keti: I'm just saying what I believe, not what I firmly believe
(05:06:29 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and yeah dolphins probably think differently.. I'd be surprised if they didn't
(05:06:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: also it would have been better had the experiment be designed by a non human
(05:08:13 AM) Keti: Or have two experiments going, one designed by each, and you can not only compare the data but also possibly draw conclusions about how the experiment designs differ.
(05:08:19 AM) Keti: An experiment in experiment design.
(05:08:19 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and I'm pretty sure many people have tried to understand dolphin language.. I read about a few serious attempts at doing so
(05:09:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes but would dolphins design such an experiment in the first place?
(05:09:19 AM) Keti: I dunno.
(05:10:53 AM) iWantToLiveFree: there's evidence for them being incredibly smart and sociable... but I see no reason to think of them as capable of elaborate discussions for instance
(05:11:18 AM) iWantToLiveFree: one reason for that being there limited understanding of the world and what can be done
(05:11:47 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they don't know what lies beyond the shores
(05:12:23 AM) Keti: That can change.
(05:12:28 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they probably have only a very limited understanding of man-made (dolphin-made) structures and environment manipulation
(05:13:06 AM) Keti: Bringing a seastead out to them would certainly offer them a number of new things to think about
(05:13:41 AM) iWantToLiveFree: sure, that would be great.. however, they may never have evolved a brain capable of forming such complicated concepts as they were unable to ever experience them
(05:14:27 AM) iWantToLiveFree: for instance, would they appreciate paintings (or artificial, dolphin made, art)
(05:14:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they may appreciate dolphin swims or things of that nature (jumps and whatnot)
(05:15:03 AM) Keti: I know a lot about dolphins, but I've never talked to one.
(05:15:12 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but that is somewhat limited and humans can do that too.. only are we able to do much more than that
(05:15:23 AM) Keti: You keep asking questions you know I can't answer.
(05:15:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes, I'm just trying to get you to reconsider your belief that dolphins are probably as intelligent as humans
(05:16:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I see no basis for that belief
(05:16:27 AM) Keti: Lemme rephrase hen
(05:16:31 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they may be.. but it's not necessarily probable
(05:16:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok
(05:16:36 AM) Keti: They have the capacity to be as intelligent
(05:16:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: we do not know that for a fact
(05:17:40 AM) Keti: No, especially because we've got no consistent way of measuring intelligence.
(05:18:03 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they may not have the capacity to form certain concepts.. "god", "environment transformation"
(05:18:36 AM) iWantToLiveFree: because they cannot experience something doesn't mean they couldn't understand it when confronted to it
(05:18:55 AM) Keti: They have the capacity to learn to form those concepts
(05:19:10 AM) Keti: Babies have no capacity to form most concepts
(05:19:17 AM) iWantToLiveFree: however, it is possible (and probable in my opinion) that their brain didn't evolve in a way which would allow for such concepts to be formed as they couldn't possibly have ever needed them
(05:19:43 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no the babies analogy cannot be applied in this case
(05:19:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: babies have the same evolutionary path as other humans
(05:20:10 AM) Keti: Lemme put it another way then.
(05:20:29 AM) iWantToLiveFree: calves or dolphin embryos have the same evolutionary path as other dolphins.. yet inferior intelligence
(05:20:44 AM) Keti: To learn is to restructure one's brain. That's how learning happens. When you learn something, your brain's structure changes.
(05:21:24 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes we agree so far.. although not everything can be reconfigured and the extent to which reconfiguration occurs is rather limited
(05:21:53 AM) Keti: For the brain to be incapable of dealing with abstractions means for it to be incapable of learning to deal with abstractions
(05:22:08 AM) Keti: I know of no reason why it would be impossible to learn to deal with abstractions.
(05:22:48 AM) iWantToLiveFree: for the same reasons cows have a large brain which will never be capable of understanding certain concepts
(05:23:23 AM) iWantToLiveFree: the brain isn't x number of identical cells which can be structure in any way shape of form as needed to understand something
(05:23:53 AM) Keti: do you know the specific ways it would have to be structured to prevent that kind of thing?
(05:24:55 AM) Keti: The fact that dolphins are capable of thinking about thinking, and practicing consistent inconsistency (that earlier test I mentioned), shows a certain level of intelligence that certainly doesn't place them on the same level as cows
(05:25:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no but I know that there are things we cannot possibly understand
(05:25:14 AM) Keti: I know of no such things.
(05:25:24 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes dolphins are interesting
(05:25:28 AM) Keti: What things are thare that we cannot possibly understand?
(05:25:29 AM) iWantToLiveFree: much more intelligent than cows
(05:26:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and probably as capable as most humans when it comes to specific things which dolphins have to deal with
(05:26:34 AM) Keti: Let's reverse this logic a bit
(05:26:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: what things? we have only a mathematical understanding of other dimensions (assuming they do exist) and only a partial understanding of fly vision for instance
(05:27:26 AM) Keti: That's "We don't know yet", not "We can never know"
(05:27:38 AM) Keti: What if we assumed humans had no capability to understand the specific things that humans didn't have to deal with?
(05:27:42 AM) iWantToLiveFree: we are incapable of experiencing fly vision.. and will only ever be able to represent it in our minds as a 2 dimensional thing
(05:27:48 AM) Keti: And then, we change what humans have to deal with?
(05:28:13 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no you don't understand my point
(05:28:36 AM) iWantToLiveFree: men did not evolve a brain capable of understanding fly vision because we never had to deal with it
(05:29:02 AM) iWantToLiveFree: there is no way you can change that lest you give me fly eyes and drastically alter my brain
(05:29:21 AM) iWantToLiveFree: or wait millions of years for us to grow fly eyes
(05:30:02 AM) iWantToLiveFree: similarly, it doesn't strike me as absurd to believe that dolphins have a narrower set of concepts they can understand.. albeit a very large one
(05:31:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: it doesn't make it true.. but given the range of things they can experience and do.. it would seem they can form some concepts we can't (mostly sensory ones) and probably not many others which we can (some of them sensory and many more non sensory)
(05:37:46 AM) iWantToLiveFree: there's a reason AI researchers believe endowing robots with a humanoid body is the best way to achieve human like artificial cognition
(05:43:46 AM) iWantToLiveFree: if you had been born blind you probably wouldn't be able to properly understand what "colors" are
(05:44:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you may at best understand that it is something which could make 2 identical shapes different to an "observer" (yet another strange concept)
(05:44:35 AM) Keti: That doesn't mean it's impossible to get vision.
(05:44:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: because your brain was evolved to process it
(05:45:05 AM) Keti: It also doesn't mean your brain couldn't get upgraded.
(05:45:06 AM) iWantToLiveFree: had humans never had eyes.. we would never be able to understand it
(05:45:14 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes I agree with that
(05:45:37 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but upgrade my brain and I am no longer a standard human
(05:45:51 AM) Keti: So?
(05:45:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: an upgraded dolphin could very well be human like
(05:46:03 AM) iWantToLiveFree: doesn't mean standard dolphins can understand what humans can
(05:46:22 AM) Keti: They have the capacity to learn to be able to
(05:46:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: not likely
(05:46:36 AM) iWantToLiveFree: for the reasons I mentioned
(05:46:42 AM) Keti: It'll almost always go undeveloped but the capacity exists
(05:46:43 AM) iWantToLiveFree: your repeating it doesn't make it so
(05:46:56 AM) iWantToLiveFree: why would it exist?
(05:47:02 AM) Keti: The capacity to learn?
(05:47:16 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, the capacity to learn the same things than humans can
(05:47:22 AM) iWantToLiveFree: we can never learn "fly vision"
(05:47:30 AM) Keti: Sure we can.
(05:47:33 AM) Keti: after we get fly eye.s
(05:47:37 AM) iWantToLiveFree: neither can we learn "sonar navigation"
(05:47:43 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no not even that would work
(05:47:47 AM) Keti: Yes we can. Once we develop the hardware.
(05:47:51 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you wouldn't be able to process the signals
(05:47:57 AM) Keti: Some people CAN sonar navigate
(05:48:03 AM) iWantToLiveFree: your brain wouldn't understand
(05:48:11 AM) Keti: It can learn to understand.
(05:48:24 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, you can partially understand it
(05:48:28 AM) Keti: They've got this new trick for giving sight to the blind
(05:48:31 AM) Keti: Wanna know what it is?
(05:48:37 AM) Keti: Sending the signals through the tounge.
(05:48:43 AM) Keti: People develop vision like this.
(05:48:47 AM) iWantToLiveFree: Dolphins can partially understand bipedal walking.. through observation and guesswork
(05:48:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: they can never understand it as well as humans can
(05:49:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: blind humans are nonetheless human with evolved human brains
(05:49:44 AM) Keti: And?
(05:49:54 AM) Keti: If you feed the brain information, it will learn to interpret it
(05:50:02 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and the brain evolved to process stereo vision
(05:50:20 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes if it was structured to
(05:50:26 AM) Keti: no. It WILL.
(05:50:33 AM) Keti: If there is anything to interpret, it will be interpreted.
(05:50:38 AM) Keti: Not instantly.
(05:50:44 AM) iWantToLiveFree: take the human optic nerve and put it in your butt.. I bet you your brain will cease to function properly and you'll die
(05:50:50 AM) Keti: But it'll begin learning to use that information.
(05:51:10 AM) Keti: I highly doubt that
(05:51:39 AM) iWantToLiveFree: okay let's say you remove my eyes... I won't be able to see and I won't be able to process visual signals anymore
(05:51:55 AM) Keti: Yes you will.
(05:52:13 AM) Keti: You'll be able to process visual signals, you just won't have visual signals to process.
(05:52:18 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, I have no more eyes.. and nobody's putting them back
(05:52:23 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes so there
(05:52:26 AM) iWantToLiveFree: that's my example
(05:52:28 AM) iWantToLiveFree: nothing to process
(05:52:29 AM) Keti: That's different though.
(05:52:37 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I know, let me finish
(05:52:49 AM) Keti: Give the brain visual signals again and it'll begin processing them again
(05:53:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: let's say I was born blind.. I wouldn't be able to understand "colors" at all having never had anything like that to process and store as memories
(05:53:58 AM) iWantToLiveFree: now let's say the species never had eyes in the first place.. it won't even have the hardware to process such signals and it is equally impossible to form this concept in my head
(05:54:10 AM) Keti: No.
(05:54:30 AM) iWantToLiveFree: the brain is NOT, I repeat NOT, a number of generic cells which can do anything they want and reconfigure themselves to learn
(05:54:55 AM) Keti: It IS a number of cells that reconfigure themselves to learn.
(05:55:14 AM) iWantToLiveFree: not so, you have a very poor understanding of the brain
(05:55:22 AM) Keti: So you can't learn?
(05:55:48 AM) iWantToLiveFree: it is a complex machine with specific parts processing specific signals and some PHYSICALLY different neurons
(05:55:57 AM) iWantToLiveFree: memory cells cannot process signals for instance
(05:55:58 AM) Keti: So?
(05:56:26 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so you can only learn some things and not others unless you physically alter the brain (which it can do itself only to a very limited extent)
(05:56:42 AM) Keti: So?
(05:57:06 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so dolphins cannot form the same concepts as humans can and vice versa
(05:57:18 AM) Keti: That doesn't follow.
(05:57:25 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes it does,
(05:57:29 AM) Keti: No it doesn't.
(05:57:33 AM) Keti: Logically it doesn't.
(05:57:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: some parts of the brain are dedicated to processing sensory signals and can only do that
(05:57:54 AM) Keti: The possibility that there are ideas that dolphins can't understand that humans can and vice versa is established.
(05:58:00 AM) iWantToLiveFree: some other parts to storing memories
(05:58:05 AM) Keti: Whether or not that possibility is true is not.
(05:58:14 AM) iWantToLiveFree: others to stimulating muscles and whatnot
(05:58:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: now, it is unfortunately impossible for sensory cells to store information or for action cells to process incoming signals and relay them to the memory cells
(05:59:06 AM) Keti: That's nice but doesn't support your point.
(05:59:21 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes it does, the brain is structure in diffirent ways for different species
(05:59:33 AM) iWantToLiveFree: some species have 90% sensory cells and almost no memory for instance
(05:59:43 AM) Keti: That doesn't mean that dolphins and humans can conceve of things that the other can't.
(05:59:51 AM) iWantToLiveFree: oh yes it does
(05:59:56 AM) Keti: It means that it is possible for that to be true and provides an explanation for why it might be true.
(06:00:04 AM) Keti: But it does not prove it to be more than a possibility.
(06:00:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: oh no, it is CERTAINLY true
(06:00:26 AM) Keti: Not based on what you've given me.
(06:00:27 AM) iWantToLiveFree: make no mistake about it, you can't know what fly vision is
(06:00:34 AM) Keti: Yes I can.
(06:00:54 AM) iWantToLiveFree: if you were given fly eyes, you wouldn't be able to process the signals as it takes most of a fly's brain to do that
(06:01:11 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so you know fly vision?
(06:01:11 AM) Keti: Fly brains are so tiny it really shouldn't be surprising.
(06:01:15 AM) Keti: No.
(06:01:26 AM) Keti: I'm not saying I know what it's like to have fly vision.
(06:01:31 AM) Keti: I'm saying I CAN know what it's like.
(06:01:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok stop right here
(06:01:39 AM) Keti: You seem to be confusing the possibility of a fact and a fact itself
(06:01:46 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you do not know what it is like to be a fly
(06:01:50 AM) Keti: No.
(06:01:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: dolphins don't know what it is like to be human
(06:01:58 AM) Keti: Correct.
(06:02:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: humans don't know what it is like to be dolphins
(06:02:09 AM) Keti: And?
(06:02:30 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you cannot know what sonar navigation is
(06:02:36 AM) Keti: No.
(06:02:37 AM) Keti: I can.
(06:02:40 AM) Keti: I don't.
(06:02:42 AM) Keti: But I can.
(06:02:59 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you can?
(06:03:03 AM) Keti: Yes.
(06:03:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: how?
(06:03:16 AM) Keti: Give me the hardware to do it and get back to me in five years.
(06:03:27 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes and dolphins could be bipedal.. but they're not
(06:03:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: cut the crap will you

[iWantToLiveFree]

(06:03:37 AM) Keti: Give them legs and some time to learn how they work.
(06:03:45 AM) iWantToLiveFree: the point is you do not know what sonar navigation is
(06:03:59 AM) Keti: You are saying things are impossible which are obviously not IMPOSSIBLE.
(06:04:17 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but given that everything is possible
(06:04:18 AM) Keti: "Do not know" and "Can not know" are not the same thing.
(06:04:20 AM) iWantToLiveFree: it's not the point
(06:04:25 AM) Keti: Yes it is.
(06:04:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you full well understood what it is that I meant
(06:04:44 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you're playing dumb here
(06:04:59 AM) Keti: I understood you as holding the stupid position that it's impossible to do things which are possible.
(06:05:08 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah right
(06:05:23 AM) Keti: Read what I've said and see if I don't act like it.
(06:05:31 AM) Keti: I don't know what you do and don't think.
(06:05:38 AM) Keti: I've met some really stupid people.
(06:05:49 AM) Keti: This wouldn't be the stupidest position I've ever encountered.
(06:05:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, you're playing dumb here
(06:06:11 AM) Keti: I'm not playing dumb.
(06:06:17 AM) iWantToLiveFree: YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS TO SONAR NAVIGATE.. got it?
(06:06:22 AM) Keti: You're playing obstinant-about-using-incorrect-verbiage
(06:06:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: that's my point.. sometimes "can't" is used in place of "don't" and you know it
(06:06:45 AM) Keti: Not in conversations I've ever had.
(06:07:03 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah right.. as if you could remember all of the conversations you ever had
(06:07:05 AM) Keti: There's a really big difference between them.
(06:07:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: wanna play dumb.. let's play
(06:07:17 AM) Keti: I'd be able to recall a specific instance of this
(06:07:44 AM) iWantToLiveFree: sure, and what temperature it was on that day
(06:07:48 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you're such a genius
(06:08:02 AM) Keti: Since such day never happened, I can't tell you.
(06:08:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: of course
(06:08:30 AM) iWantToLiveFree: anyways.. dolphins are likely unable to understand some of the things we can and vice versa
(06:09:09 AM) Keti: Let's clarify. Do you mean they don't understand some things humans do, or they can't understand some things humans do?
(06:10:07 AM) iWantToLiveFree: stupid.. I mean dolphins CANNOT understand some things humans do UNLESS significantly altered physically
(06:10:35 AM) Keti: so?
(06:10:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: or.. I mean dolphins DO NOT understand some things humans do but potnetially COULD if significantly altered physically
(06:10:38 AM) iWantToLiveFree: take your pick
(06:10:47 AM) Keti: The latter.
(06:10:51 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so that's my conclusion.. that's it
(06:10:57 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no both are true
(06:11:12 AM) Keti: You said take my pick.
(06:11:15 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok
(06:11:16 AM) Keti: That means one or the other.
(06:11:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but these are two sides of the same coin really
(06:11:44 AM) Keti: Given those two options, and with "both" and "neither" ruled out, that means I have to pick one, and I pick the latter.
(06:11:50 AM) Keti: You should really be more careful with how you phrase things.
(06:12:22 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, you only got away with it partly because I stupidly forgot how dumb you could pretend to be at times
(06:12:42 AM) iWantToLiveFree: a dolphin is a dolphin.. not a dolphin significantly altered to be human
(06:13:03 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so the can / do controversy really was ridiculous and I was being accurate
(06:13:13 AM) Keti: No, you were still being wrong.
(06:13:30 AM) Keti: And I still believe that the brain will try to interpret any signal you give it.
(06:13:44 AM) iWantToLiveFree: if it can
(06:13:49 AM) Keti: I said try.
(06:13:58 AM) Keti: It certainly can try.
(06:14:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: a fly brain will never be able to process what a human brain can
(06:14:04 AM) Keti: Let's not go there AGAIN.
(06:14:20 AM) Keti: That doesn't mean it won't try
(06:14:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: a dolphin's brain will never be able to process what a human brain can
(06:14:41 AM) Keti: I'm skeptical of that.
(06:14:53 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes I agree it is not certain
(06:15:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I am not well versed enough in dolphin brains
(06:15:50 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but nonetheless I think the human brain is necessarily more suited to understanding bipedal walking than a dolphin's brain
(06:17:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: if you were to give it legs.. it might be able to process the signals coming from two legs, but it might come at the expense of something else (assuming it requires more processing power) or perhaps not (assuming it requires the same or less)
(06:17:39 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and of course, barred any surgery to give it legs.. the common dolphin has a lesser understanding (much lesser) of bipedal walking than the common human
(06:18:12 AM) Keti: Right, because humans don't have to learn how to walk.
(06:18:18 AM) Keti: It just comes naturally, like instinct.
(06:18:30 AM) Keti: Baby pops out of vagina and walks away
(06:19:02 AM) iWantToLiveFree: actually it's partly true
(06:19:53 AM) iWantToLiveFree: babies are wired with everything needed to process those signals, with the right cells in the right places in the right quantity, linked to the right cells to store the memories and so forth
(06:20:33 AM) Keti: So are dolphins.
(06:20:48 AM) Keti: The wiring is developed, it's not there at birth.
(06:20:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: indeed, though not for walking
(06:20:58 AM) Keti: All the wiring needed at birth is the wiring needed to rewire.
(06:21:09 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no it's there at birth.. the fine tuning is not
(06:21:26 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes but your brain cannot rewire itself for the most part
(06:21:34 AM) Keti: Yes it can
(06:21:58 AM) Keti: When you're born you don't even have any connection to the cortex
(06:22:19 AM) Keti: It takes some significant rewiring to get those connections
(06:22:22 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, for instance, when people lose vision, after some time, the associated cells simply die or become non functional.. only a very few are used for something else
(06:22:45 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no no no... it's all in your fucking genetic code
(06:22:52 AM) iWantToLiveFree: why do you think people grow legs?
(06:23:08 AM) Keti: Not all people do.
(06:23:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: not all indeed.. which is usually a genetic accident or environmental damage
(06:23:55 AM) Keti: Oh, sorry, I count dolphins as people. You mean humans?
(06:24:15 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes of course I do.. and you know I do
(06:24:19 AM) Keti:
(06:24:37 AM) Keti: The two are not the same
(06:24:46 AM) iWantToLiveFree: what two?
(06:24:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: humans and people?
(06:24:52 AM) Keti: Humans and people
(06:25:08 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes they are for most people.. and including myself
(06:25:18 AM) iWantToLiveFree: what's the definition of people according to you?
(06:25:58 AM) Keti: Anything that's self-aware and capable of understanding ownership
(06:26:48 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I'm fine with that
(06:27:15 AM) iWantToLiveFree: although you must realize it is not widely thought to include anything but humans
(06:27:39 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and even though it doesn't make people right.. you still need to use terms they can understand
(06:28:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: otherwise why bother dicuss anything with people if they cannot understand what you mean
(06:28:14 AM) Keti: I find that people can distinguish more often than you'd think without realizing it
(06:28:24 AM) iWantToLiveFree: possibly
(06:28:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I'm sure you won't find many people willing to include "dolphins" as "people" though
(06:29:18 AM) iWantToLiveFree: it's a safe bet that when discussing pretty much anything with almost anybody, "dolphins" are not included in their definition of "people"
(06:29:49 AM) Keti: They can be silently included without fucking things up very much quite often.
(06:30:11 AM) Keti: When someone says "person"
(06:30:27 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I can think of a lot of examples when this doesn't hold true though
(06:30:33 AM) iWantToLiveFree: like "people walking in the street"
(06:31:06 AM) Keti: That just implies that all the people involved are able to walk
(06:31:16 AM) Keti: Not that the definition of person only includes humans
(06:31:33 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes because dolphins are not able to do that ever
(06:31:55 AM) Keti: Ever?
(06:32:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes
(06:32:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: unless you make them something other than a dolphin
(06:32:25 AM) Keti: Something other than a conventional dolphin
(06:32:26 AM) iWantToLiveFree: like a dolphin with legs.. which really isn't a dolphin anymore
(06:32:33 AM) Keti: Yes it is.
(06:32:47 AM) iWantToLiveFree: nah, that's not a dolphin anymore.. there would be some other word for this
(06:32:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: sorry
(06:33:41 AM) Keti: Semantics.
(06:33:47 AM) Keti: I'd still consider it a person.
(06:34:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes but you need to keep that in mind when discussing things with people
(06:34:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you can still consider it a person.. just remember people usually don't so it may useful to make your view known in some instances
(06:34:55 AM) Keti: I do.
(06:34:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and you can't assume people do include dolphins as persons or people
(06:35:08 AM) Keti: I just took a sarcastic approach to it this time because you accused me of playing dumb earlier.
(06:35:21 AM) iWantToLiveFree: which you often do
(06:35:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: for no good reason but to dodge the arguments
(06:35:39 AM) Keti: No I don't.
(06:35:48 AM) Keti: what argument was I dodging?
(06:35:54 AM) Keti: I was making my position extremely clear
(06:35:59 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so was I
(06:36:06 AM) Keti: If you position was compatible with what I was saying, you should have said so.
(06:36:51 AM) Keti: What did you think I meant when I said you were confusing the possibility of a fact being true with the truth of a possible fact?
(06:37:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I stated my position clearly from the start.. you just broadened the definition of Dolphin to include basically anything a dolphin might become if it were made into something else as a thought experiment
(06:37:30 AM) Keti: You are needlessly narrowing the definition of dolphin
(06:37:40 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no no I was not, you twisted the definition of dolphin so it appeared I had said something illogical
(06:38:14 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, a dolphin is a dolphin.. not something with legs or without a sonar or whatever
(06:38:46 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you're broadening your definitions beyond reason when it suits you
(06:38:49 AM) Keti: Are dolphins gray?
(06:38:59 AM) iWantToLiveFree: not necessarily no
(06:39:19 AM) Keti: How many flippers does a dolphin have?
(06:39:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: 4 I guess
(06:39:54 AM) Keti: That's wierd, they don't have dolphins at seaworld then
(06:40:02 AM) Keti: They have something else.
(06:40:02 AM) iWantToLiveFree: 3 perhaps
(06:40:11 AM) Keti: Something with only two flippers
(06:40:12 AM) iWantToLiveFree: what do you count as a flipper?
(06:40:17 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok then 2
(06:40:26 AM) Keti: Fins located on the underside and excluding the fluke
(06:40:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so what? I'm fine with them having only 2
(06:40:43 AM) iWantToLiveFree: english is not my native tongue
(06:40:46 AM) Keti: So what about that dolphin with 4 flippers that they found in Japan?
(06:40:53 AM) Keti: Is that a dolphin?
(06:41:06 AM) Keti: Is a frog with 5 legs a frog?
(06:41:11 AM) Keti: Are albino dolphins really dolphins?
(06:41:31 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes a mutated dolphin but I'm sure you can still call it a dolphin
(06:41:41 AM) Keti: So where's your arbitrary line?
(06:42:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: what's generally accepted to be a dolphin unless the definition is made explicit before we start the discussion
(06:42:13 AM) Keti: And what is that?
(06:42:23 AM) Keti: My definition of "generally accepted" is different from yours
(06:42:26 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ask around.. something with legs isn't a dolphin
(06:42:49 AM) Keti: So why do people call my fursona a dolphin?
(06:42:54 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you knew I did not include the possibility of legs when I was arguing my point
(06:42:55 AM) Keti: It has legs.
(06:42:59 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you knew that but ignored it
(06:43:01 AM) Keti: No I didn't.
(06:43:03 AM) Keti: How could I?
(06:43:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you were playing dumb
(06:43:24 AM) Keti: How could I know your definition of dolphin excludes legs?
(06:43:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: because otherwise how would you know my definition of fire doesn't include ice?
(06:44:00 AM) iWantToLiveFree: stop being silly
(06:44:09 AM) iWantToLiveFree: see.. playing dumb
(06:44:18 AM) Keti: It can.
(06:44:30 AM) Keti: Put some sodium on an ice cube sometime
(06:44:31 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah right.. no point arguing with you then
(06:44:35 AM) Keti: FIER
(06:44:40 AM) Keti: Flames!
(06:44:41 AM) Keti: Sparks!
(06:44:42 AM) Keti: Heat!
(06:44:44 AM) iWantToLiveFree: sure.. wonderful
(06:44:44 AM) Keti: Smoke!
(06:44:46 AM) Keti: Fire!
(06:44:48 AM) Keti: And ice!
(06:44:54 AM) iWantToLiveFree: (meaning it's not ice anymore)
(06:45:06 AM) Keti: It's both.
(06:45:15 AM) iWantToLiveFree: anyways.. you're being silly and if you can't understand that then you're sick
(06:45:24 AM) iWantToLiveFree: if you can then I'm not sure what your intent is
(06:45:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: beyond making a fool of yourself
(06:45:54 AM) iWantToLiveFree: something cannot be that thing and something different at the same time
(06:46:03 AM) Keti: I'm tired of being serious about you putting dumb limitations on your definitions, so to keep myself interested I've stopped taking it so seriously
(06:46:04 AM) Keti: Yes it can
(06:46:12 AM) Keti: It can be hot and wooden at the same time
(06:46:20 AM) Keti: Hot and wood are not the same at all
(06:46:23 AM) iWantToLiveFree: dumb limitations?
(06:46:29 AM) iWantToLiveFree: the fact that dolphins have no legs?
(06:46:31 AM) iWantToLiveFree: wow
(06:46:41 AM) iWantToLiveFree: or that ice is not fire?
(06:46:52 AM) Keti: More like defining something that is in every other way a dolphin as a non-dolphin because it has legs
(06:46:53 AM) iWantToLiveFree: cool.. you're insane
(06:47:03 AM) Keti: Or defining a fire as not-fire if it involves ice.
(06:47:13 AM) iWantToLiveFree: okay look,
(06:47:22 AM) iWantToLiveFree: hot and wood are not the same
(06:47:30 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you can't say hot is wood
(06:47:33 AM) iWantToLiveFree: or that wood is hot
(06:47:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you can say that a piece of wood is being hot though
(06:47:58 AM) iWantToLiveFree: which can be a property of wood
(06:48:10 AM) iWantToLiveFree: (a property of wood.. not wood itself)
(06:48:12 AM) iWantToLiveFree: anyways
(06:48:58 AM) Keti: So if something is a dolphin in every way except that it has legs, it's not a dolphin?
(06:49:30 AM) iWantToLiveFree: that particular individual may or may not be classified as a dolphin
(06:49:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: same as one with wings
(06:49:35 AM) Keti: If a computer is a computer in every way except that it has a card that is not part of the definition of compuer in one of it's PCI slots, is in not a computer?
(06:49:55 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but when I'm refereing to a dolphin it of course does not refer to anything with legs or wings
(06:50:08 AM) Keti: Is a dolphin that has an upgraded brain but is in every other way a dolphin, a dolphin?
(06:50:30 AM) iWantToLiveFree: maybe yeah
(06:50:51 AM) Keti: Great. Then dolphins and humans certainly CAN operate at the same level.
(06:50:56 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but then again, when mentioning "dolphin" I am not refering to this particular individual but to the common sort
(06:51:05 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes, humans can fly too
(06:51:11 AM) iWantToLiveFree: and can breath underwater
(06:51:23 AM) iWantToLiveFree: wonderful isn't it?
(06:51:26 AM) Keti: You're generally referring to any of a number of things satisfying your definition of dolphin
(06:52:16 AM) iWantToLiveFree: do you allow me to post some excerpts of this on the BBS?
(06:53:19 AM) Keti: No, I don't trust you to be fair about it.
(06:53:27 AM) iWantToLiveFree: how about the whole thing then?

[iWantToLiveFree]

(06:53:33 AM) Keti: Nobody will read it.
(06:53:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: might bore some people but it's fair
(06:53:39 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yeah so nothing to fear
(06:54:10 AM) Keti: I don't know what you want out of it
(06:54:23 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I think it could be fun to see what others think about it
(06:54:42 AM) Keti: Almost nobody's gonna read it.
(06:54:56 AM) iWantToLiveFree: also it might save people time not debating you in the future or at least not taking you seriously
(06:55:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes it's probable
(06:55:25 AM) iWantToLiveFree: at this point my only regret is to have made it so long as to be mostly uninteresting.. but still.. worth a shot
(06:55:58 AM) Keti: Blagh. I don't see much point in it.
(06:56:13 AM) iWantToLiveFree: don't bother.. I do
(06:57:28 AM) iWantToLiveFree: so, you don't object to it do you?
(06:57:49 AM) Keti: I'd rather you not but I won't stop you.
(06:57:58 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you can't stop me
(06:58:04 AM) Keti: That's why I won't.
(06:58:11 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I'm asking because I'd rather do it with your permission or not do it
(06:58:23 AM) Keti: I'd rather you not.
(06:58:34 AM) iWantToLiveFree: not that I have any duty to ask or whatever
(06:58:50 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok, great.. you're proving my point
(06:59:02 AM) Keti: What point?
(06:59:07 AM) iWantToLiveFree: you understand that you are being silly
(06:59:14 AM) Keti: Yes.
(06:59:21 AM) Keti: I think I explained it earlire.
(06:59:30 AM) iWantToLiveFree: sort of
(06:59:49 AM) Keti: I'm tired of taking your dumb limitations on definitions seriously so I chose to stop taking it seriously than lose interest
(07:00:01 AM) iWantToLiveFree: nah nah, that's what you said
(07:00:04 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but even that is silly
(07:00:13 AM) iWantToLiveFree: because my limitations were reasonable
(07:00:18 AM) iWantToLiveFree: which I have proved
(07:00:22 AM) Keti: No they weren't
(07:00:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: let's let others decide?
(07:00:48 AM) Keti: Argumentum ad populum
(07:01:06 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes I have no problem with that
(07:01:22 AM) Keti: So you have no problem with fallacious tactics?
(07:01:26 AM) iWantToLiveFree: definitions reflect a consensus to some extent
(07:02:07 AM) iWantToLiveFree: yes I do.. but in this case I'm fine with asking others to give their own opinion
(07:02:21 AM) iWantToLiveFree: it won't make me right or wrong
(07:03:00 AM) Keti: Tell you what you can do that I won't ojbect to at all, make a poll giving different grades from the ideal, typical dolphin to something non-dolphin and ask at what point people cease to define it as a dolphin.
(07:03:08 AM) Keti: object*
(07:03:20 AM) Keti: I gotta go to bed.
(07:03:35 AM) iWantToLiveFree: no, I will ask whether dolphins have legs or not
(07:03:46 AM) Keti: That's dumb
(07:03:58 AM) Keti: It's taking advantage of ambiguity in the english language
(07:04:06 AM) iWantToLiveFree: I can phrase it differently
(07:04:25 AM) iWantToLiveFree: like "can dolphins have legs?" but that would be ambiguous as well
(07:04:32 AM) iWantToLiveFree: the question I should be asking is this:
(07:04:39 AM) Keti: Ask "If a dolphin had legs, would it still be a dolphin?"
(07:05:00 AM) iWantToLiveFree: "when mentioning dolphins, do you think of something which could have legs"
(07:05:15 AM) Keti: Ask it like I gave it.
(07:05:38 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok why not
(07:05:42 AM) iWantToLiveFree: but that's not my point
(07:05:48 AM) Keti: I gotta go to bed
(07:05:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: as I conceded it may or may not be called that
(07:06:07 AM) iWantToLiveFree: the point is people don't think of somthing with legs when mentioning dolphins
(07:06:11 AM) iWantToLiveFree: ok nite
(07:06:32 AM) Keti: Me neither, but it doesn't explicitly forbid legs either.
(07:06:38 AM) iWantToLiveFree: (or of dolphins when mentioning people)
(07:06:38 AM) Keti: Night.
(07:06:49 AM) iWantToLiveFree: going to ed too.. ciao

The End

[Ed]

Dude, look...I didn't read that 18 pages of bullshit because I'm really fucking stoned, okay? But I do want to say that Keti is a god damn freak, a fucking mutant witch that needs to be put down like the dog he is and erased genetically and forever from our memories. DOES EVERYONE UNDERSTAND THAT?!

Fuck Keti...I have nothing against him though.

[Rillion]

1.  Yes, your conversation is boring.  No, I didn't read every word.  It's long and repetitive-- so sue me. 

2.  What is your native language, anyway?

3.  Yes, you and Keti have different perspectives on what different brains are capable of learning.  There's no reason to believe that dolphins can learn anything beyond what a 2 year old human child can, and that's being generous.  I suspect Keti is extending that in order to avoid the cognitive dissonance that might come with lusting after individuals who are the mental equivalent of a toddler.

4. The existence of actual language use, including syntax and grammar, has not been demonstrated in any species besides humans.

5.  Some understanding of the problem of subjectivity would be very useful.  Google Thomas Nagel's famous essay "What is it like to be a bat?" and responses. 

[Ed]

1.  Yes, your conversation is boring.  No, I didn't read every word. 

2.  What is your native language, anyway?

3.  Yes, you and Keti have different perspectives on what different brains are capable of learning.  There's no reason to believe that dolphins can learn anything beyond what a 2 year old human child can, and that's being generous.  I suspect Keti is extending that in order to avoid the cognitive dissonance that might come with lusting after individuals with the mental equivalence of a toddler. 

4. The existence of actual language use, including syntax and grammar, has not been demonstrated in any species besides humans.

5.  Some understanding of the problem of subjectivity would be very useful.  Google Thomas Nagel's famous essay "What is it like to be a bat?" and responses. 

God you're a fuckin' moron.

[Rillion]

God you're a fuckin' moron.

You're right; my time would be much better spent posting pictures of fat naked people spreading their ass cheeks.  Thanks for the reminder of why I have you on ignore. 

[Ed]

God you're a fuckin' moron.

You're right; my time would be much better spent posting pictures of fat naked people spreading their ass cheeks.  Thanks for the reminder of why I have you on ignore. 

Yeah? Whatever.

[Andy]

Dude, look...I didn't read that 18 pages of bullshit because I'm really fucking stoned, okay? But I do want to say that Keti is a god damn freak, a fucking mutant witch that needs to be put down like the dog he is and erased genetically and forever from our memories. DOES EVERYONE UNDERSTAND THAT?!

Fuck Keti...I have nothing against him though.

Soup came out of my nose.

[iWantToLiveFree]

1.  Yes, your conversation is boring.  No, I didn't read every word.  It's long and repetitive-- so sue me.

Yeah that sucks. I wish he would have allowed me to post only the relevant parts. I didn't want to highlight them either as this would have been dishonest.

2.  What is your native language, anyway?

French is. Long live Frederic Bastiat. 

3.  Yes, you and Keti have different perspectives on what different brains are capable of learning.  There's no reason to believe that dolphins can learn anything beyond what a 2 year old human child can, and that's being generous.  I suspect Keti is extending that in order to avoid the cognitive dissonance that might come with lusting after individuals who are the mental equivalent of a toddler.

Actually my beef is more with Keti being undebatable, not with his holding a different view. Different brains (ie. different species) are by definition capable of different things unable to reconfigure themselves in a similar fashion. There can be only so much your brain can do on its own. Brains are simply not that flexible.. otherwise we could simply built a robot with human attributes, throw in a number of brain cells in it and hope for it to reconfigure itself to learn how to use the body given enough time.
Keti apparently ignores brain cells are physically different and distributed in specific parts of the brain in specific numbers with specific alterable AND unalterable connections with tremendous differences for all species. He does not differentiate between what can be learned (naturally) and how things are actually learned.

4. The existence of actual language use, including syntax and grammar, has not been demonstrated in any species besides humans.

I know there's been several attempts at understanding dolphin language, with no conclusive results. I also know of several attempts to teach them human language with limited results, including an understanding of word associations. There's no doubt dolphin communications are more elaborate than say "dog communications" but there is also no reason to believe their language to be as elaborate as ours. I just don't see any basis for that although I suspect Keti really wants that to be true and it won't settle for anything less than "at least as good as we humans".
He doesn't seem to be a skeptic anymore when it comes to this.

5.  Some understanding of the problem of subjectivity would be very useful.  Google Thomas Nagel's famous essay "What is it like to be a bat?" and responses.

I will. Sounds fun. I also need to finish reading your story on feminism.

[sillyperson]

Mostly what I get out of the several pages of this that I actually read(!) is that Keti is abnormal sexually (I already knew that, and so did you and so does he), and that he is able to argue rationally and calmly, even with someone who is not being particularly respectful nor rational.


Rillion >> I read "What is it like to be a Bat?" in Brainstorms by Daniel C. Dennett. Awesome collection of similar essays.

[iWantToLiveFree]

Seriously, if you're overstepping the character limit on a forum post, it's too freakin' long. I've seen people fit award winning dissertations of the entire sphere of human knowledge in these son-bitches.

I agree wholeheartedly:

(06:55:25 AM) iWantToLiveFree: at this point my only regret is to have made it so long as to be mostly uninteresting.. but still.. worth a shot

Had I been allowed to edit things out.. I would have only included enough to fit in one post.

Mostly what I get out of the several pages of this that I actually read(!) is that Keti is abnormal sexually (I already knew that, and so did you and so does he), and that he is able to argue rationally and calmly, even with someone who is not being particularly respectful nor rational.

Are you saying I am not being respectful or rational? Also his sexual preferences would have been left out of this discussion had I been allowed to only paste the relevant parts of this discussion.
Also you obviously did not read the whole thing and I only wish you would have abstained from voting altogether (or voted this uninteresting or pointless). His sexuality is not something I criticized nor even something I wanted to include in this thread.

[bonerjoe]

Keti has no feelings.

[bonerjoe]

Keti has no feelings.

You're thinking of M_D

They both posess the same qualities.