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Poll

Is intellectual property legitemate or illegitemate?

Legitemate
- 11 (32.4%)
Illegitemate
- 17 (50%)
Other
- 6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: Is IP legit or illegit?  (Read 20654 times)

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Wayne

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2006, 10:08:52 AM »

Dang it... I guess I'll go to bed after a few more posts (*sigh*)

It's legitimate if a jury of your peers is convinced that you did indeed suffer loss in the 'theft' of your ideas. At no point should government enter into the process, the individual who losses the lawsuit pays for the court time.

Surely you're not saying that majority opinion determines whether or not it's OK to treat ideas like real property?

I mean, that same jury could convict me of "corrupting minors" because I cussed in public. That doesn't mean they have a right to force me to spend time in a cage or to cough up some cash.

-Wayne
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2006, 10:08:58 AM »


It's still my Intellectual Property. I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it. 
 

I'm willing to concede you own the poem that's in your head if you'll concede I own the identical poem that's in mine.  If you didn't want to share you shouldn't have given it to me.  They're my memories.  You don't own the contents of my brain. 

Then there's the part about so what if you thought of it first.  Bob thought of it second and entirely independent of you.  Do you own Bob's ability to think?  If he thinks the same thing you do can you rightfully prevent him from sharing his thoughts?

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Wayne

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2006, 10:12:51 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate.

That's not true. Many of the greatest works (such as, if I recall correctly, Shakespeare) were created before the concept of IP came along.

And even though there's economic incentive now for creative types to grab the gun of government after writing their new novels or filming their new blockbusters, that does not prove--or even give evidence--that all of that would disappear in the absense of a belief in IP.

-Wayne
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2006, 10:13:53 AM »


what gives you the right to exclude others from using those letters and words in exactly the same way?

the only way you can is by violating the labor-based property rights of those you exclude...

ohh..  That's what you meant before.  I'll buy that. 
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2006, 10:14:40 AM »


It's still my Intellectual Property. I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it. 
 

I'm willing to concede you own the poem that's in your head if you'll concede I own the identical poem that's in mine.  If you didn't want to share you shouldn't have given it to me.  They're my memories.  You don't own the contents of my brain. 

Then there's the part about so what if you thought of it first.  Bob thought of it second and entirely independent of you.  Do you own Bob's ability to think?  If he thinks the same thing you do can you rightfully prevent him from sharing his thoughts?



IP has to take some kind of form, as through a medium (paper, film, a canvas, etc.). Whoever comes up with it first and puts it through a medium and then sells it has the rights to it.
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freedom geek

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2006, 10:15:22 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate.

That's not true. Many of the greatest works (such as, if I recall correctly, Shakespeare) were created before the concept of IP came along.

And even though there's economic incentive now for creative types to grab the gun of government after writing their new novels or filming their new blockbusters, that does not prove--or even give evidence--that all of that would disappear in the absense of a belief in IP.

-Wayne

Thats because it was hard to copy things back then. A copy of his play couldn't be put on bit torrent.
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AlexLibman

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2006, 10:18:09 AM »

[RANT]
      IP protects profitability of the soft-power weapons of this sophisticated Empire - it's cultural exports.  Even if we wanted to, we could not get rid of IP laws without getting rid of the Empire first.  But if the question is whether the economy would be better off without IP laws, an argument can be made both ways.  The argument you might not have heard before has to do with imagining what funding of creative works would be like if there was no intellectual property protection.  Instead of George Lucas making a cut from theater tickets, DVD sales, pay-per-view, etc, his fans would need to get together and form a fund to encourage him to make his Star Wars movies...  Does that make sense to anyone?  I thought not...
[/RANT]
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2006, 10:23:55 AM »

You need a level of force to prevent theft. Of course they would have to prove it caused them to loose money since you don't take a copy away from them when you download off bittorrent. Back then before copyright laws producing a copy of something was hard. For instance having a copy of a book made would be a privage as it required writing it, now it takes a click. Non profits get the exeption as they do not cause you in most cases to loose money. The song or whatever itself is not your property, your right to make money off it is.

You haven't yet convinced me it's property...  A little early to assume we agree it's theft.  Don't confuse "lose" money with "not make" money.  Lack of gain is not loss.  Whenever people start talking like it is you can be sure they are on the wrong track or just as often, getting paid to say the things they are saying.

What does it matter how much effort it takes.  If it's wrong when it's easy than it's wrong when it's hard.  That's a null argument.

Non profits.... dude, it's property or it's not.  Motives don't matter.

Why is the right to make money off it property?  Is that one of the "unalienable rights" in the DOI?  Liberty no doubt includes the right to make music but not the right to have other people pay you for it.  I need something worth killing for here.  If you're not ready to pull the trigger.  Don't ask the government to get involved.  They are always ready.
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Wayne

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2006, 10:25:10 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate.

That's not true. Many of the greatest works (such as, if I recall correctly, Shakespeare) were created before the concept of IP came along.

And even though there's economic incentive now for creative types to grab the gun of government after writing their new novels or filming their new blockbusters, that does not prove--or even give evidence--that all of that would disappear in the absense of a belief in IP.

-Wayne

Thats because it was hard to copy things back then. A copy of his play couldn't be put on bit torrent.

What does that matter? Either ideas or property or they aren't... regardless of the current level of technology.

Let me ask this, it might help things a bit... what definition are you using for "property"? It doesn't have to be a textbook definition, you can define it however you want. I just want to know what you're calling property so I can proceed (after I get some sleep at least...)

I'll toss this out as my current working definition of property:

A material item, good or substance that one rightfully owns by virtue of initial possession, acquisition after abandonment, or transfer of ownership.

-Wayne
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2006, 10:29:44 AM »

[But if the question is whether the economy would be better off without IP laws, an argument can be made both ways. 

With me that is NEVER the argument when the same argument involves government.  It's not about would the world be better off but rather: "is it a defense of unalienable rights"?  If it's not than it's gotta go.  The question is"  Is there an unalienable right to ownership of intellectual property?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 10:31:53 AM by Roycerson »
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freedom geek

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2006, 10:31:40 AM »

You need a level of force to prevent theft. Of course they would have to prove it caused them to loose money since you don't take a copy away from them when you download off bittorrent. Back then before copyright laws producing a copy of something was hard. For instance having a copy of a book made would be a privage as it required writing it, now it takes a click. Non profits get the exeption as they do not cause you in most cases to loose money. The song or whatever itself is not your property, your right to make money off it is.

You haven't yet convinced me it's property...  A little early to assume we agree it's theft.  Don't confuse "lose" money with "not make" money.  Lack of gain is not loss.  Whenever people start talking like it is you can be sure they are on the wrong track or just as often, getting paid to say the things they are saying.

What does it matter how much effort it takes.  If it's wrong when it's easy than it's wrong when it's hard.  That's a null argument.

Non profits.... dude, it's property or it's not.  Motives don't matter.

Why is the right to make money off it property?  Is that one of the "unalienable rights" in the DOI?  Liberty no doubt includes the right to make music but not the right to have other people pay you for it.  I need something worth killing for here.  If you're not ready to pull the trigger.  Don't ask the government to get involved.  They are always ready.

Thats what I meant by saying they would have to prove loss. Non profits do not cause loss therefore they would be exempt.


Property: rights to control a portion of land, object or idea.

Off to bed now.
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Wayne

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2006, 10:41:50 AM »

[RANT]
      IP protects profitability of the soft-power weapons of this sophisticated Empire - it's cultural exports.  Even if we wanted to, we could not get rid of IP laws without getting rid of the Empire first.  But if the question is whether the economy would be better off without IP laws, an argument can be made both ways.  The argument you might not have heard before has to do with imagining what funding of creative works would be like if there was no intellectual property protection.  Instead of George Lucas making a cut from theater tickets, DVD sales, pay-per-view, etc, his fans would need to get together and form a fund to encourage him to make his Star Wars movies...  Does that make sense to anyone?  I thought not...
[/RANT]

It makes sense to me.

George Lucas makes a movie. He spends $X doing so. The value of X is irrelevent, since he had complete control over it's value.

He's done with the movie, lays back, and rakes in the profits from DVD sales. And profits indefinitely from doing so. Think about that. It doesn't matter how big X was that he spent to make on it. He and his descendents could potentially profit FOREVER from that one creative act, depending on the grace of the state. And if fans are downloading the movie, there's not even any relevent cost-per-unit to speak of. It's all gravy.

What real, tangible material good works in that way? None. There is no other way possible to do work once, and get paid forever, except for the state to dictate that it must be so done. That alone tells me that IP isn't real property, and that treating it like real property is trouble.

What real property can be sold once and--in the absense of any contractual agreement with anyone--can then grant you, quite literally, partial control over the notepads, printing presses, computers, and even bodies of everyone else in the nation?

I'm not against IP because Hollywood makes an obscene amount of money (although they do) or because I want to rip off Tom Clancy's work (I don't). I'm against it because it doesn't make sense to treat it like real property--because it's not.

-Wayne
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2006, 10:42:14 AM »

IP has to take some kind of form, as through a medium (paper, film, a canvas, etc.). Whoever comes up with it first and puts it through a medium and then sells it has the rights to it.

why?  Why does the guy who puts it on a medium have no right to it where the one who puts it on a medium and then sells it does?  If selling creates ownership than how is it his to sell before the sale?  And how does the act of selling preclude ownership by one who intends to sell it, or give it away, or keep it to himself until he thinks the time is right, or burn it in a fit of rage, or put a purple dress on and dance around it on a full moon?

Does the person have to do all three things to have the rights to it?  come up with it first...put it on a medium...sell it

Or can he come up with it third and put it on a medium and sell it.

Or can he come up with it first, obtain the medium on which someone else put it and sell that?

What if he doesn't come up with it at all.  Someone else does and communicates it to the person who then puts it on a medium and sells it. 

Is verbal communication a medium?   Is the recipients brain a medium?  Is the brain of the person who came up with it a medium and the verbal communication a transfer of title?

Be specific man!!!!!

We know you like the idea of copyright.  Moral justification for using the governments guns.  That's the way it should be only works for King W.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 10:53:30 AM by Roycerson »
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Wayne

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2006, 10:51:40 AM »

No, but Intellectual property is a process based entirely on peoples claims, how would you proposed we ascertained whose claims are indeed truthful, accurate or relevant?

I'm also not proposing criminal proceedings, it would be a jury involved in a lawsuit, no jail time and if you win the case, then your opponent pays. Simple.

If you have a better idea put words to it.

Personally, I don't think it's real property. I don't think anyone should be trying to treat it as such. People shoud be free to copy intangibles (ideas, patterns, etc.) all they want.

If someone wants to make everyone buying his DVD sign a non-copy no-redistribution contract first, fine. (And IMHO since you don't sign it, tossing a "you can't copy this" note in the case doesn't cut it.) But once the cat is out of the bag, you can only procescute the guy who did the first copy (assuming you can identify and find him)--but not anyone else in possession of a copy, because they didn't sign your contract.

Granted... I doubt such a state of affairs will ever come to pass anytime soon. But I'm convinced that that's the logical, ideal, and morally correct stance to take.

Alright, I'm outta here.

-Wayne
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Lloyd

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2006, 10:53:39 AM »

I think that people who argue that IP is not property are likely to be theives.  Probably spoiled young punks  who have spent their lives turning their computers on and getting all kinds of free stuff because the creators of the stuff we're kind enough to put it there.
As an anarchist I dissagree with the enforcement of patents and copyrights by government, but, in the case of one of my creations being stolen, if a lawsuit didn't work for me, I would probably take care of the perpetrator myself.
Your belief that you have a right to my creation will be trumped by my bullet.
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