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Poll

Is intellectual property legitemate or illegitemate?

Legitemate
- 11 (32.4%)
Illegitemate
- 17 (50%)
Other
- 6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: Is IP legit or illegit?  (Read 20616 times)

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freedom geek

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2006, 09:03:44 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate. That being said currant IP laws are just as bad. Copyright should be opt in. If the owner of a copyright/patent cannot be found then you should be free to use it. Non-profit uses of patents should be free...
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2006, 09:06:11 AM »

Keti's argument is that Intellectual Property is not objective therefore it can't be property.

A) You mean.... or rather... does he mean this kind of objective?

of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.


Well that all depends on whether thoughts and ideas are biological things.  Even if they are not biological in any sense we are aware of and can measure than they could be real tangible and quite natural things that we can't measure and can't begin to comprehend.

Why are you telling us what HIS argument is?

I'm telling you his argument because I wanted to see you refute it.

Quote
Why?  More specifically, what justification do you have to use guns to enforce these ideas?  Real concrete principles is what I'm looking for.  Something to make me think I'm fighting for freedom when I pull the trigger.

Which idea? Aren't you for IP rights? Please state your stance on the issue.

Quote
Why?  If it's property like your favorite frisbee than can't it be inherited?  Why not?  Also, same question as above.

I guess it could live on with a company, assuming that the company never goes out of business. If the company did go out of business does that mean that the IP is up for grabs now?

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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2006, 09:14:42 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate. That being said currant IP laws are just as bad. Copyright should be opt in. If the owner of a copyright/patent cannot be found then you should be free to use it. Non-profit uses of patents should be free...

No, the idea of IP suffers from the same flaws as socialism.....  Write it 100 times "I will not use force to achieve social or political goals".  Just cuz you think it'll make the world a better place isn't good enough.  I think the world would be better if pickles were free and availabe on every corner.

No one invented or wrote or sang anything before intellectual property laws?  That's not true so neither is your second sentence.

Your third sentence is the way it is now pretty much and also the way a world w/o copyright laws would be.  I have some friends that wrote the John Hughes foundation and asked for permission for their drama troupe to perform The Breakfast Club.  No response after one year so they did.... In a HS library.... It rocked.  Then I got drunk with Bender.  And I think I might have hit on his girlfriend.

Non-profits uses should be free?  That's just fucking retarded.  It's either property or it's not.  I think people should have absolute ownership of frisbees........ unless little retarded kids want to play with them... retarded kids are cute.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2006, 09:21:46 AM »

Which idea? Aren't you for IP rights? Please state your stance on the issue.

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=10158.msg159282#msg159282

oh.....you must have misunderstood.  I own my thoughts and memories.  So if you read me a poem that you wrote and don't make me promise not to tell anyone.  Than I can tell my friend this poem that I remembered.  The poem is now in my memory.  My memories are mine.  Any other way and you get some REALLY crazy shit like on the NFL broadcasts.  No descriptions, accounts etc etc. w/o permission from the NFL.  You can actually be sued for talking about the game over by the watercooler.  Not likely to happen.  But that's the law.

Quote
Why?  If it's property like your favorite frisbee than can't it be inherited?  Why not?  Also, same question as above.

Quote
  I guess it could live on with a company, assuming that the company never goes out of business. If the company did go out of business does that mean that the IP is up for grabs now? 

If it were actually property..  It would have to be that way.  Wouldn't have to be a company though.  I can leave my frisbee to my boy so if IP is really P than I can leave that to my boy also.
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freedom geek

  • Guest
Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2006, 09:26:00 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate. That being said currant IP laws are just as bad. Copyright should be opt in. If the owner of a copyright/patent cannot be found then you should be free to use it. Non-profit uses of patents should be free...

No, the idea of IP suffers from the same flaws as socialism.....  Write it 100 times "I will not use force to achieve social or political goals".  Just cuz you think it'll make the world a better place isn't good enough.  I think the world would be better if pickles were free and availabe on every corner.

No one invented or wrote or sang anything before intellectual property laws?  That's not true so neither is your second sentence.

Your third sentence is the way it is now pretty much and also the way a world w/o copyright laws would be.  I have some friends that wrote the John Hughes foundation and asked for permission for their drama troupe to perform The Breakfast Club.  No response after one year so they did.... In a HS library.... It rocked.  Then I got drunk with Bender.  And I think I might have hit on his girlfriend.

Non-profits uses should be free?  That's just fucking retarded.  It's either property or it's not.  I think people should have absolute ownership of frisbees........ unless little retarded kids want to play with them... retarded kids are cute.

You need a level of force to prevent theft. Of course they would have to prove it caused them to loose money since you don't take a copy away from them when you download off bittorrent. Back then before copyright laws producing a copy of something was hard. For instance having a copy of a book made would be a privage as it required writing it, now it takes a click. Non profits get the exeption as they do not cause you in most cases to loose money. The song or whatever itself is not your property, your right to make money off it is.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2006, 09:27:03 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate.

how does that view square with the open software movement?
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freedom geek

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2006, 09:33:19 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate.

how does that view square with the open software movement?
The open source software movement is great. The problem with socialism is only good people produce and lazy people don't do anything. Same with IP laws. The open source movement is a concentration of the good people
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Taors

  • Guest
Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2006, 09:44:48 AM »

Which idea? Aren't you for IP rights? Please state your stance on the issue.

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=10158.msg159282#msg159282

oh.....you must have misunderstood.  I own my thoughts and memories.  So if you read me a poem that you wrote and don't make me promise not to tell anyone.  Than I can tell my friend this poem that I remembered.  The poem is now in my memory.  My memories are mine.  Any other way and you get some REALLY crazy shit like on the NFL broadcasts.  No descriptions, accounts etc etc. w/o permission from the NFL.  You can actually be sued for talking about the game over by the watercooler.  Not likely to happen.  But that's the law.

It's still my Intellectual Property. I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it.

Quote
If it were actually property...It would have to be that way.  Wouldn't have to be a company though. I can leave my frisbee to my boy so if IP is really P than I can leave that to my boy also.

Yeah, I guess you could. Until he dies, gives it to his kid, or sells it, it would remain his.

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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2006, 09:45:28 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate.

how does that view square with the open software movement?
The open source software movement is great. The problem with socialism is only good people produce and lazy people don't do anything. Same with IP laws. The open source movement is a concentration of the good people

it directly refutes your statement about stagnation...
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2006, 09:46:51 AM »

Quote
I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it.

the letters and words used to communicate it are part of the social commons.
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2006, 09:48:50 AM »

Quote
I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it.

the letters and words used to communicate it are part of the social commons.

So?
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Taors

  • Guest
Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2006, 09:55:19 AM »

It's still my Intellectual Property. I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it.

Can you prove it?

Can you prove it to the extent that a jury would nominate in favour of you getting reparations?

If the latter is true, then fine. Otherwise it's a subjective imperative and your claim has little basis. Anyone can make a claim, that doesn't justify it being your property. 

Once I came up with it and wrote it down then I'd make sure that everyone knows that I came up with it first (through media). At the point that I turned the idea into property through the medium of paper then it's my property and no one should be allowed to rightfully take it away from me.
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2006, 10:00:56 AM »

It's still my Intellectual Property. I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it.

Can you prove it?

Can you prove it to the extent that a jury would nominate in favour of you getting reparations?

If the latter is true, then fine. Otherwise it's a subjective imperative and your claim has little basis. Anyone can make a claim, that doesn't justify it being your property. 

Once I came up with it and wrote it down then I'd make sure that everyone knows that I came up with it first (through media). At the point that I turned the idea into property through the medium of paper then it's my property and no one should be allowed to rightfully take it away from me.

Dating the work might be a good idea too.

As a side note, if copyrighting were a private system I'd have no issue with it.

That's the point of media recognition. And I agree with your second statement.
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freedom geek

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2006, 10:01:57 AM »

The idea of no IP is nice but it suffers from the same flaws as socialism. If their  is no incentive to create thought based works, thought based works will stagnate.

how does that view square with the open software movement?
The open source software movement is great. The problem with socialism is only good people produce and lazy people don't do anything. Same with IP laws. The open source movement is a concentration of the good people

it directly refutes your statement about stagnation...
No many of the innovations the open source software movement needs comes from copyright and patents. And since their will always be a open source type movement you will always be able to get uncopyrighted and unpatented media.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2006, 10:04:36 AM »

Quote
I came up with the poem first, and have the rightful claim to it.

the letters and words used to communicate it are part of the social commons.

So?

what gives you the right to exclude others from using those letters and words in exactly the same way?

the only way you can is by violating the labor-based property rights of those you exclude...
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