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Poll

Is intellectual property legitemate or illegitemate?

Legitemate
- 11 (32.4%)
Illegitemate
- 17 (50%)
Other
- 6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: Is IP legit or illegit?  (Read 20627 times)

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Zhwazi

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Is IP legit or illegit?
« on: December 02, 2006, 04:22:09 AM »

Had a debate with a friend on this. I think IP is illegit, he think's it's legit. Opinions?
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 04:22:42 AM »

I was that friend.
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Wayne

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 06:30:21 AM »

Illegit.

I'm convinced you can't own an idea or a pattern or a thought... at least not once it leaves your head. Trying to treat an idea or pattern as if it were real property, inevitably requires encroachment on other property rights--which should be quite a red flag that something is wrong with the concept.

I'd love to see a single, viable definition of "property" that successfully allows for both real property and IP.

-Wayne
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"Buy low, sell high." Are YOU stocking up on silver yet?

BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 06:48:27 AM »

Illegit.

I'm convinced you can't own an idea or a pattern or a thought... at least not once it leaves your head. Trying to treat an idea or pattern as if it were real property, inevitably requires encroachment on other property rights--which should be quite a red flag that something is wrong with the concept.

I'd love to see a single, viable definition of "property" that successfully allows for both real property and IP.

-Wayne


yes, this is Stephan Kinsella argument...that law-based property (privilege) always ends up violating labor-based property.

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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2006, 07:16:57 AM »

I finally came to decision about this when I realized that obviously my thoughts and memories belong to me.  I can share them with whomever I please unless I have entered into a voluntary contract that states otherwise.  If you don't want something to get out.  Don't teach it to them or expose them to it without a non-disclosure agreement.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2006, 08:10:35 AM »

in some ways IP laws are like zoning - a blanket attempt to mitigate negative externalities inorder to protect land values (economic rent).

the economic rent collect by IP law can only come at the expense of the labor (right of self-ownership) of those you exclude...now what makes it a little different than land is that is the IP necessary for life?

we do need language to survive and that is part of the social commons...
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freedom geek

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2006, 08:16:16 AM »

I believe it is legit to a extent
Trademark law is illegit
patent and copyright law should only apply for a limited time for when the person holding the patent/copyright has something to loose from what is being created
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2006, 08:21:22 AM »

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

What obviously makes IP different from land is IP is labor based.  I don't know that I'd call it property.

Your mom's part of the social commons.  (apology in parentheses deleted....  that shit is funny)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 08:23:34 AM by Roycerson »
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Brent

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2006, 08:38:01 AM »

I own myself.  My memories, knowledge and abilities are a part of me.  Some of those memories are songs.  Some of that knowledge and ability is how to play those songs.  Therefore you cannot tell me when or for what reasons I may play those songs with out restricting my use of my most precious possession, myself.  I may use parts of myself for profit if I so choose without anyone's permission.
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2006, 08:40:37 AM »

Keti's argument is that Intellectual Property is not objective therefore it can't be property.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2006, 08:41:48 AM »

patent and copyright law should only apply for a limited time for when the person holding the patent/copyright has something to loose from what is being created

why?  what's the magic number of days when a person's unalienable right to patent/copyright expires?
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freedom geek

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2006, 08:43:32 AM »

patent and copyright law should only apply for a limited time for when the person holding the patent/copyright has something to loose from what is being created

why?  what's the magic number of days when a person's unalienable right to patent/copyright expires?
It would depend on the type of idea and you wouldn't loose them all at once, they would be gradully steped down.
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2006, 08:44:17 AM »

patent and copyright law should only apply for a limited time for when the person holding the patent/copyright has something to loose from what is being created

why?  what's the magic number of days when a person's unalienable right to patent/copyright expires?

Technically, when you die, your IP dies with you.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2006, 08:50:29 AM »

Keti's argument is that Intellectual Property is not objective therefore it can't be property.

A) You mean.... or rather... does he mean this kind of objective?

of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.


Well that all depends on whether thoughts and ideas are biological things.  Even if they are not biological in any sense we are aware of and can measure than they could be real tangible and quite natural things that we can't measure and can't begin to comprehend.

Why are you telling us what HIS argument is?
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2006, 08:54:43 AM »

It would depend on the type of idea and you wouldn't loose them all at once, they would be gradully steped down.

Why?  More specifically, what justification do you have to use guns to enforce these ideas?  Real concrete principles is what I'm looking for.  Something to make me think I'm fighting for freedom when I pull the trigger.
.
Technically, when you die, your IP dies with you.

Why?  If it's property like your favorite frisbee than can't it be inherited?  Why not?  Also, same question as above.

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