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Poll

Is intellectual property legitemate or illegitemate?

Legitemate
- 11 (32.4%)
Illegitemate
- 17 (50%)
Other
- 6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: Is IP legit or illegit?  (Read 20646 times)

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Hittman

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2006, 05:20:52 PM »

People have a right to profit from their labor.  Without IP that right vanishes for a lot of creative endeavors. 

A few years ago I was working for GE's R&D center.  They funded hundreds of research programs.  Sometimes they resulted in viable products they can manufacture or license.  Sometimes the research failed, or by the time the research was done there was no longer a market for it.   

One of their projects was a glass plate that was sensitive to x-rays.  It was designed to replace film for mammography.  The resolution was almost as good as film, it had all the advantages of digital images over physical ones (easy to store, no deterioration, could be sent to a specialist via e-mail instantly, etc.), and as a bonus used less radiation, so it was safer for the patient. 

They spent 30 million dollars and 7 years to prefect it. 

Why would any company take that level of risk if a month after bringing it to market a competitor could reverse engineer it and sell it without having to recoup that thirty million dollar investment?   Since they did the work, shouldn't they get the profit, at least for a while? 

If there were no IP, sure there would still be songs and books and poems, but how many $30 million inventions would we see? 

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Under no circumstances should IP be protected by law. 

Then it won't be protected.  There has to be a bottom line, an ultimate gun at the end of the line, or it's meaningless. 

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Where do guns come into in the free market? 

As the last resort for dealing with a thief.

If I write a book I should be the one to profit from that book.  You shouldn't be able to take my work, my labor, and produce it yourself and sell it at a profit, cutting me out of the loop.  You shouldn't be able to make a movie out of it without me getting something in return for my labor.

If you want to argue that today's copyright and patent laws are outrageous and ridiculous, I'm with you. Allowing business practices to be patented is stupid.  Allowing someone to patent using a laser pointer to entertain a cat is ridiculous.  And "For a limited time" was not intended to be 170 years.  And the draconian methods being used by the RIAA and the MPAA to protect their IP is not only stupid, but counterproductive.  (In any business, theft is a fact of life, and good business people build the cost of it into their bottom line.)  But the principle of reasonable protection for IP is sound.  The fact that it's become unreasonable doesn't invalidate the principle. 

The founding fathers gave very very few powers to the federal government.  Among them was the power to grant copyrights and patents.  I happen to think they were smarter than you, or me, or anyone else on this board. 


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brokenneckblues

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2006, 05:08:17 PM »

if one writes a book or designs a logo it's their property to sell. you can't put your name on Walden and call it yours.
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gandhi2

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2006, 06:05:36 PM »

I have a difficult time with this one.  Its my belief that you can't own something intangible, so IP doesn't really work in that context.

I think that the owner of the idea has a responsibility to keep it as his own.  If he somehow reveals the information, without a conditional contract to the revealee, than any ownership rights cannot be believed to be retained.  It's kind of wierd, but under current IP law, if there is reason to believe that you didn't have a high enough degree of security in retaining the IP, your rights to claim it are arguable.  e.g.  You share an office space with two other companies, both from different sectors than yourself, and speak loudly about a business plan.  One of your competitors knows nothing about it, but knows some information about it, and that information was obtained with a contractual obligation to refrain from capitalizing on it.  However the competing customer upon visiting your office finds out that you often spead about idea swhile others outside the company are in earshot, and then they want to take advantage of it.  They capitalize on your idea, and when you sue for breach of contract, they provide the defense that your company didn't do a good enough job of protecting its IP.  Even though the neighboring companies didn't betray you, and the competitor broke his contract, they get absolved and you lose the IP.  This sort of case has happened in the past, and it's common business practice to have even the most trusted individuals sign non-disclosures and non-competes because of it.

That being said, I think that IP ownership will eventually fall to contracts and contract law, whether in the free market or government.  The owners will naturally practice suspicion and prudency when sharing the idea with others, and the only recourse is to prosecute violations of contracts.
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Zhwazi

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2006, 06:39:00 PM »

Damn I'm glad I made this thread.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Ben Tucker. BT, if you'd stop obsfucating what you're saying with stuff like "labor-based property rights" and just call it "property rights" a lot more people might be interested in what you have to say. You'll keep people's attention better if you keep it simple.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2006, 06:47:18 PM »

Damn I'm glad I made this thread.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Ben Tucker. BT, if you'd stop obsfucating what you're saying with stuff like "labor-based property rights" and just call it "property rights" a lot more people might be interested in what you have to say. You'll keep people's attention better if you keep it simple.

you can't have law-based property rights (privilege) like IP to intangible property without violating labor-based, tangible property rights.

this is Stephan Kinsella's argument not mine.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 06:50:13 PM by BenTucker »
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gandhi2

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2006, 06:48:28 PM »

Well, the fundamental difference is that land is tangible and exclusive, while ideas and information are not, at least not in the same terms.  50 people could have the same knowledge without created an burden on the others who have it.  The same cannot be said for land.  50 people on the same acre of land means that all have less resources than if they had owned the land singularly.

This may be an instance where Ben makes sense, but I think it takes a dramatic leap of logic to prove his other rhetoric on the same terms as this.  It's obvious that there are different properties in tangible property and ideas.
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Zhwazi

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2006, 06:54:18 PM »

you can't have law-based property rights (privilege) like IP to intangible property without violating labor-based, tangible property rights.
And that is slightly confusing. I'd probably have listened to you a few months ago if you were phrasing it more like "Legal privilige violates property rights." I still disagree with your ideas of land (let's NOT get into that in this thread), but I would have been better able to understand what you were saying had it been more simply and intuitively phrased.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2006, 08:50:19 PM »

you can't have law-based property rights (privilege) like IP to intangible property without violating labor-based, tangible property rights.
And that is slightly confusing. I'd probably have listened to you a few months ago if you were phrasing it more like "Legal privilige violates property rights." I still disagree with your ideas of land (let's NOT get into that in this thread), but I would have been better able to understand what you were saying had it been more simply and intuitively phrased.

there is no difference to my argument as it relates to IP and land....

1. privilege is needed to entitle land as no one labors to create it
2. privilege is needed to entitle IP because it is non-rivalrous

to privilege means private (privi) law (lege) or treating one differently in the eyes of the law than the rest and as a result allows economic rent to be captured by the entitled from those being excluded which always (eventually with land) violates their absolute right to self-ownership.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 06:42:32 AM by BenTucker »
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Hittman

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2006, 12:49:15 AM »

I'm still waiting to hear why any company would invest thirty million dollars in an invention if there's no patent to protect their potential profits.

Another issue that hasn't been addressed is trademark and business names.  Without IP, no one could protect their name or their logo.  Anyone could call themselves Burger King, Outback Steakhouse, or Nike, rendering the brand name useless, and making it impossible for consumers do know if they're dealing with the real company or not.  If someone has invested the time and money to build a brand, why should anyone be able to come along later and abscond with it? 
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Zhwazi

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2006, 02:16:29 AM »

you can't have law-based property rights (privilege) like IP to intangible property without violating labor-based, tangible property rights.
And that is slightly confusing. I'd probably have listened to you a few months ago if you were phrasing it more like "Legal privilige violates property rights." I still disagree with your ideas of land (let's NOT get into that in this thread), but I would have been better able to understand what you were saying had it been more simply and intuitively phrased.

there is no difference to my argument as it relates to IP and land....

1. privilege is need to entitle land as no one labors to create it
2. privilege is need to entitle IP because it is non-rivalrous

to privilege means private (privi) law (lege) or treating one differently in the eyes of the law than the rest and as a result allows economic rent to be captured by the entitled from those being excluded which always (eventually with land) violates their absolute right to self-ownership.
Dammit I'm not arguing with you right now. I'm just telling you to phrase things using a less proprietary phrase set so more people can understand it.
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gandhi2

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2006, 02:21:29 AM »

Doesn't he realize that every time he says that dreaded phrase a baby angel loses its wing, gets shot and then raped by imps, and then dies an excruciating death?  :( :( :(

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Dammit I'm not arguing with you right now. I'm just telling you to phrase things using a less proprietary phrase set so more people can understand it.
I can sympathize.  It's a shame, because I think that he may have some valuable arguments in his brain.  If only he could refrain from espousing this particular philosophy, he might get more converts to his other ideas.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #71 on: December 04, 2006, 06:44:32 AM »

I'm still waiting to hear why any company would invest thirty million dollars in an invention if there's no patent to protect their potential profits.

Another issue that hasn't been addressed is trademark and business names.  Without IP, no one could protect their name or their logo.  Anyone could call themselves Burger King, Outback Steakhouse, or Nike, rendering the brand name useless, and making it impossible for consumers do know if they're dealing with the real company or not.  If someone has invested the time and money to build a brand, why should anyone be able to come along later and abscond with it? 


no problem...just compensate those being excluded by the mnopoly so their right of self-onwership remains intact.
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gandhi2

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #72 on: December 04, 2006, 11:35:03 AM »

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no problem...just compensate those being excluded by the mnopoly so their right of self-onwership remains intact.
Huh?  WTF does this have to do with anything?  Am I correct in assuming that as an artist, if I want restrict others from copying my works and calling them their own, I must pay them?  Do you want to destroy all art?  Some of the best art may have been done for philanthropic reasons more than monetary reasons, but ultimately, an individual either wants to be paid for a work or be recognized for it.

What sort of demon shat in your brain?  Do you find new ways to twist reality to make it fit in your world view every day, or is this a stock up from the day when you fell victim to bleeding-heart liberalism and started masturbating yourself to redistribution of all forms of wealth?
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mrapplecastle

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2006, 11:59:35 AM »

If I have an apple and you have an apple, and we exchange apples, we both still have one apple. If I have an idea and you have an idea, and we exchange ideas, then we both have 2 ideas.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2006, 12:24:49 PM »

Quote
Some of the best art may have been done for philanthropic reasons more than monetary reasons, but ultimately, an individual either wants to be paid for a work or be recognized for it.

philanthropy and recognition require no monetary obligations via force from anyone else...
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