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Poll

Is intellectual property legitemate or illegitemate?

Legitemate
- 11 (32.4%)
Illegitemate
- 17 (50%)
Other
- 6 (17.6%)

Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: Is IP legit or illegit?  (Read 20594 times)

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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2006, 11:12:13 AM »

I think that people who argue that IP is not property are likely to be theives.  Probably spoiled young punks  who have spent their lives turning their computers on and getting all kinds of free stuff because the creators of the stuff we're kind enough to put it there.
As an anarchist I dissagree with the enforcement of patents and copyrights by government, but, in the case of one of my creations being stolen, if a lawsuit didn't work for me, I would probably take care of the perpetrator myself.
Your belief that you have a right to my creation will be trumped by my bullet.


I go to great lengths to not initiate force on people even when the government would lock me up for doing so.  I even refuse to take lucrative government contracts because it's stolen money.  That was a particularly tough decision to make.  One of the contractors I work for was totally flabbergasted and disappointed too.  He has to go with the more expensive guy for his NG Armory stuff.  Luckily he's understanding enough to still use me for residential work and regularly tries to talk me into doing work for a few federal government employees he gets a lot of work from.  Turning an attic into a wrestling room for a customs agents kids and all the stuff that one sees in the process turns the stomache.  The wife used that vidalia dressing though...  I like that stuff.  I don't take those jobs either anymore.  I think my conviction to NAP is far greater than the average libertarian.  Maybe to the point of irrational.  But if it is crazy at least I err on the side of NAP.  I might be a young punk but I am very much not spoiled.

But you feel so strongly about it.  Please tell me.  What makes ownership of ideas an "unalienable right"?

Something other than... "it's mine" We've heard that one.  I'll concede it's yours but posit that it might also be someone elses.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2006, 12:01:09 PM »

I think that people who argue that IP is not property are likely to be theives.  Probably spoiled young punks  who have spent their lives turning their computers on and getting all kinds of free stuff because the creators of the stuff we're kind enough to put it there.
As an anarchist I dissagree with the enforcement of patents and copyrights by government, but, in the case of one of my creations being stolen, if a lawsuit didn't work for me, I would probably take care of the perpetrator myself.
Your belief that you have a right to my creation will be trumped by my bullet.


here is a famous libertarian lawyer "theif"...

http://www.stephankinsella.com/publications.php
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2006, 02:11:59 PM »

No, but Intellectual property is a process based entirely on peoples claims, how would you proposed we ascertained whose claims are indeed truthful, accurate or relevant?

I'm also not proposing criminal proceedings, it would be a jury involved in a lawsuit, no jail time and if you win the case, then your opponent pays. Simple.

If you have a better idea put words to it.

Personally, I don't think it's real property. I don't think anyone should be trying to treat it as such. People shoud be free to copy intangibles (ideas, patterns, etc.) all they want.

If someone wants to make everyone buying his DVD sign a non-copy no-redistribution contract first, fine. (And IMHO since you don't sign it, tossing a "you can't copy this" note in the case doesn't cut it.) But once the cat is out of the bag, you can only procescute the guy who did the first copy (assuming you can identify and find him)--but not anyone else in possession of a copy, because they didn't sign your contract.

Granted... I doubt such a state of affairs will ever come to pass anytime soon. But I'm convinced that that's the logical, ideal, and morally correct stance to take.

Alright, I'm outta here.

-Wayne


Honestly there is always one major issue missed out of intellectual property discussions: Market Demand. If there truely is enough demand for intellectual property 'rights' the market will produce safeguards for ideas.

Under no circumstances should IP be protected by law.

Exactly. That's what I believe anyway. And I think people WILL demand it.

And Roy, I wouldn't have government guns coming after you, I'm an Anarcho-capitalist. It would be mercenaries.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2006, 02:17:06 PM »

Well just say it like it is then.  It's not about rights or moral justification.  It's because that's the way you want it and you think you have the guns to make it so.  Takes all the debate right out of it. 

And it's Royce
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 02:18:51 PM by Roycerson »
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Taors

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2006, 02:20:24 PM »

Well just say it like it is then.  It's not about rights or moral justification.  It's because that's the way you want it and you think you have the guns to make it so.  Takes all the debate right out of it. 

I already told you why it exists. It's a valuable idea that has scarcity (people want it) that I put through a medium. It's mine.

Actually I would take you to court first. Then a second court if they couldn't come to any conclusions or whatever. And then a third. And maybe a fourth.

And if you still didn't comply I'd have to come after you. Sorry. It's just business.

Royce. Right.
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cerpntaxt

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2006, 02:27:46 PM »

legitimate to the extent that others respect it... I think that IP cannot be compared to tangible property
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2006, 02:42:07 PM »

I already told you why it exists. It's a valuable idea that has scarcity (people want it) that I put through a medium. It's mine.


Scarcity?  Like no one else has it even if they think of it independently because you use your guns to prevent them from sharing their own thoughts with others?  Just because people want something doesn't make it scarce. 

Put it through a medium?  Again.  define medium.  Why is a record on paper "through a medium" but a record in organic tissue NOT?  (sidenote:  When people communicate THROUGH mediums it is the psychic kind...ironic considering the context...when waves travel through a medium it is the physical kind... When people put things ON a medium or attach it to one it is the physical kind...paper...magnetic tape..etc.)

And why does attaching the physical representation of an idea to a medium of any kind bestow ownership of that idea.  If it was unowned before being put on a medium.  Exactly why does the fact that it's recorded in a different format "other than in the tissue of the human brain" bestow ownership?

You really think you should be ready to defend this idea with force when you can't communicate it with words whether on or through a medium?  If you'll grant one small request.  If you choose to communicate your rationale I think it would just rock if you could do it THROUGH a medium....  I would never forget.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2006, 02:45:23 PM »

Where do guns come into in the free market? That's where my solution in impacted.

If the market IS free than the guns come in to defend life and liberty.  If the guns come in and no one can give a good reason why their life or liberty is being threatened than the market is not free.  Hence the importance of someone identifying quite specifically how their life or liberty is being taken from them before they make with the force.

Quote from: Cyro at the bottom of p2
As a side note, if copyrighting were a private system I'd have no issue with it.

Through voluntary contracts such as non-disclosure agreements.  A persons right of contract is unlimited.  I'm for it!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 02:53:57 PM by Roycerson »
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2006, 03:20:48 PM »

That was basically the scenario I was engaging in. The contract would be automatically included in any publication of works and that simply reading/hearing/being exposed to any portion of the work would invoke the contract.

It would be neigh impossible to justify a lawsuit without a contract.

The problem is with the being exposed invokes the contract.  That won't work.  Contracts require consent.  Walking into a room and hearing something or picking up a page torn out of a book or a book with the contract page torn out are all ways a person could be exposed and come into possession of this knowledge without consenting to the contract.  You could require a contract with every book sale and hold the original purchaser liable but I wouldn't be likely to sign that contract.  Who knows how much damages I could be held accountable for when my book is stolen and used to make 100,000 copies of the next big novel. 

Another possible scenario would be major publishing houses forming agreements to respect each others copyrights.  There would always be little guys who didn't respect the agreement but through economy of scale they can beat the little guy's price.  Unfortunately that means they could also use the little guy's material with impunity.  The people would have to keep all that in check by voting with their dollars.  In a free market consumer awareness and consumer activism (in the choosing where to spend their money way) would be indispensable.  I like to think it would also be more likely because the illusion of government protection is gone.

When talking about publications though there is a huge irony that the pro IP folks usually overlook.  Right now there exists many organizations backed by the force of government that offer just about any publication you want for free including CD's, DVD's, audio books etc.....  Public Libraries.  yet publishers are still making money.....hmmmm  There is a poster on this forum who tells me her local library said she was welcome to copy the DVD's she borrows just as long as they get the original back.  Yet Hollywood is thriving.....hhhmmmmm

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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2006, 04:02:18 PM »

Royce,

how's the painting coming?
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Charles

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2006, 04:32:06 PM »

I agree with Cyro's initial point that making it a government institution is probably not a good idea.  It'd be too difficult to pass a law to apply to every situation of IP.

I think a lot of people here are disregarding contract law.  If you create someone and than share it under a condition, and the person breaks that condition and duplicates it or whatever, they would be breaking that agreement.  If you start to disregard contract law made by two consenting adults, capitalism goes to shit.

If the government is not involved in copyrights, the lack of incentives and need for a lot of pre-existing capital to get the initial benefits of putting a product out there to make a normal profit leads me to believe that there should be protection to some extent.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2006, 04:40:16 PM »

Royce,

how's the painting coming?

Waiting for the phone to ring...  homeowner should have picked a color hours ago.  Gonna be a late night or just do it tomorrow.  Talking a shriner through operating her PC.  I have two of those.  One's giving Ubuntu a shot.  Crazy shriner, Ubuntu's for geeks.  You can't find DVD drivers because that's a CD-RW.  What the hell do you need a video capture card for anyway?  ohhh....  20 hours trying to figure out how to run the PS2 through the monitor and now you call me.  You could've worked overtime and bought a decent TV.  That kind of thing.
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BenTucker

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2006, 04:51:00 PM »

Royce,

how's the painting coming?

Waiting for the phone to ring...  homeowner should have picked a color hours ago.  Gonna be a late night or just do it tomorrow. 

work is over-rated...you should try rent-seeking instead (pays you while you sleep) - I think some people refer to it as a "free lunch" although usually as TINSTAAFL.

I know better though!
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Charles

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2006, 04:51:14 PM »

[quote[As for start-up capital; most start up capital now comes from investors, if anything that's only going to grow in a free market.
Quote

To a point.  The issue is that if only a few people control most of the wealth than barriers to entry will be created...hence, you'd lose the free market.
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Ecolitan

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Re: Is IP legit or illegit?
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2006, 05:07:33 PM »

work is over-rated...you should try rent-seeking instead (pays you while you sleep) - I think some people refer to it as a "free lunch" although usually as TINSTAAFL.


But I like building things.  Sometimes I like making them change color.  I'd do it if I were independently wealthy.  In comparison, every desk job I ever had sucks ass, two of them I thought I really liked at the time.  One of them I think I did.  But it wasn't just a desk job.  When I felt like it and all the paperwork was done.  I got to drive a forklift and/or push my little golf cart to the limits of it's capabilities and maybe just a teeny bit beyond.   That didn't suck.
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