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Poll

If America becomes the only industrialized nation to completely open its borders to uncontrolled immigration, as Ian suggests, how many people would move here?

More than 4,000,000,000
- 22 (32.4%)
More than 3,000,000,000
- 0 (0%)
More than 2,000,000,000
- 0 (0%)
More than 1,000,000,000
- 2 (2.9%)
More than 500,000,000
- 6 (8.8%)
More than 250,000,000
- 5 (7.4%)
More than 100,000,000
- 5 (7.4%)
More than 50,000,000
- 8 (11.8%)
More than 25,000,000
- 5 (7.4%)
More than 10,000,000
- 7 (10.3%)
Less than 10,000,000
- 8 (11.8%)

Total Members Voted: 30


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Author Topic: If we had open borders ...  (Read 34135 times)

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Bill Brasky

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2007, 06:23:52 PM »

No, you've got it now.  Thats basically correct.  The point is, it's a shitload of people.  The ramifications of that influx would be huge.

The point I was making with reverse engineering the data is that it's easily visible after a few moments consideration that fifteen or 30 million cannot sprout into 750M, no way in hell.  Not in fifty years, at least. 

So, I got a little aggrivated to have to go over it a second time, more thoroughly, when all I was suggesting is a huge influx of people will cause a big strain on the legal citizens already here who are feeling the pinch of a steadily declining economy.  The gymnastics reference was to cast an unfavorable light on people who will bend their arguments into ridiculous shapes to try to show their support for an embryonic theory of "Open borders=good/bad/maybe/love it"  Its not actually against you, it was just a comment that fit the moment. 

Personally, I would like to streamline the process and grant legal citizenship to anyone who requests it.  But thats not open borders, thats closed borders.  Open borders suggests to me that there would be no oversight whatsoever and people could just come and go with absolutely no process at all, like an open highway, just zoom right through.

That would be catastrophic. 

Thanks for explaining everything. I'm still confused, though, how the 150M illegal immigrants in 50 years would be more of a burden on society proportionally then the 15M illegal immigrants now. I'm assuming that the legal population will grow at the same rate as the illegal population, to if 15M illegal immigrants now is ~5% of the total population, then in 50 years 150M will be ~5% of the total population. Are you saying that a greater population in general is more of a burden on society (i.e., on itself)?

A burden on society...  Okay, watch this...




Well, wouldn't you suppose the number crunchers expect their calculations to rise gradualy?

Spikes in any scenario throw everything off.  Inflation is based upon population, as is every calculation the government uses to suck your taxes out of your pocket. 

A rapid influx of lower strata population is definately gonna raise your taxes.  Cant deny that. 

Look man, I'm paying mega-taxes.  There will be no sudden shift in my salary/tax bracket to the lower side.  Never. 

<gloves off>  I do not wanna pay for these motherfuckers.

Okay?


Sorry if that is an inarticulate and unimaginative expression of my opinion, but me first.  My money   MINE!!

I simply dont give a shit about open borders if I have to live in poverty to help Juan escape from one barrio to another.  Juans plight is not my problem.  He can smoke crack in mexico.  I can't live freely here.  Why should I give a fuck where other people life in poverty if I am shouldering their burden?

Why cannot they strive for excellence in mexico?

Is there no capitalism in mexico?

Do you honestly expect me to believe in 2007 the people of mexico are incapable of using their wits to rise above their plight?

Fuck them.   No, seriously...  FUCK THEM.  I work or I die.  But they don't?  The Mexican border means very little anymore.  Capitalism is exploding in mexico, probably faster than it is here...

You know what we're taking across the border?

The losers.

Everybody knows money reigns supreme in mexico.  The mexicans who make money will never come here, never.  People who have cash to spend run into mexico like their asses are on fire.  Because their dollars are worth more there. 

So, we have an exodus of wealth going south, an exodus of losers coming north, and I'm expected to be happy about it? 

Bull-fuckin-shit.

I'm never gonna be grateful about absorbing the mexican losers into the lower strata of the welfare system.  And if you want to open the doors fully to a bank robbery, you're crazy.




That is simple debate on economics and theory, Mike Barsky, nothing more.  I have no problem with individual people of any ethnicity.  Just for the record. 










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bonerjoe

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2007, 07:00:49 PM »

+1
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Ed

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2007, 07:02:01 PM »

+1

So now what do you disagree with RP on? His pro-life stance?
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bonerjoe

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2007, 07:08:15 PM »

+1

So now what do you disagree with RP on? His pro-life stance?

No.
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Mike Barskey

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2007, 07:15:53 PM »

A burden on society...  Okay, watch this...


Well, wouldn't you suppose the number crunchers expect their calculations to rise gradualy?

Spikes in any scenario throw everything off.  Inflation is based upon population, as is every calculation the government uses to suck your taxes out of your pocket. 

A rapid influx of lower strata population is definately gonna raise your taxes.  Cant deny that. 

Look man, I'm paying mega-taxes.  There will be no sudden shift in my salary/tax bracket to the lower side.  Never. 

<gloves off>  I do not wanna pay for these motherfuckers.

Okay?
...
That is simple debate on economics and theory, Mike Barsky, nothing more.  I have no problem with individual people of any ethnicity.  Just for the record. 

I completely agree about paying for them. I don't want to pay for anyone other than me or any program for which I don't benefit or give explicit consent (i.e., voluntarily spend my own money on). But I just don't understand your argument that illegal immigrants affect your wallet (or mine) any more than legal population. If the legal population increases, taxes will increase (with our current government). If the illegal population increases, taxes will increase. There are poor among legal and illegal populations and over 50 years they will both grow proportionally the same (all else being equal), hence taxes will increase.

The whole thing sounds like an argument against welfare because as population (legal or illegal) grows, so does taxation in order to support the greater welfare load. I just don't understand how illegal immigrants worsen this scenario more than the legal population.

But thanks for trying to explain it.

Charles

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2007, 07:55:13 PM »

Quote
Capitalism is exploding in mexico, probably faster than it is here...

That's what I was saying man.  I don't think Mexico is really exploding with capitalism currently, but I'm seeing a lot of potential, chinese level potential, in Mexico.  Cheap labor for the win. 
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Bill Brasky

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2007, 12:18:39 AM »

A burden on society...  Okay, watch this...


Well, wouldn't you suppose the number crunchers expect their calculations to rise gradualy?

Spikes in any scenario throw everything off.  Inflation is based upon population, as is every calculation the government uses to suck your taxes out of your pocket. 

A rapid influx of lower strata population is definately gonna raise your taxes.  Cant deny that. 

Look man, I'm paying mega-taxes.  There will be no sudden shift in my salary/tax bracket to the lower side.  Never. 

<gloves off>  I do not wanna pay for these motherfuckers.

Okay?
...
That is simple debate on economics and theory, Mike Barsky, nothing more.  I have no problem with individual people of any ethnicity.  Just for the record. 

I completely agree about paying for them. I don't want to pay for anyone other than me or any program for which I don't benefit or give explicit consent (i.e., voluntarily spend my own money on). But I just don't understand your argument that illegal immigrants affect your wallet (or mine) any more than legal population. If the legal population increases, taxes will increase (with our current government). If the illegal population increases, taxes will increase. There are poor among legal and illegal populations and over 50 years they will both grow proportionally the same (all else being equal), hence taxes will increase.

The whole thing sounds like an argument against welfare because as population (legal or illegal) grows, so does taxation in order to support the greater welfare load. I just don't understand how illegal immigrants worsen this scenario more than the legal population.

But thanks for trying to explain it.

Legal or illegal, its still a rapid influx.  It throws the whole system on its head. 

Yes, it is an argument on welfare....  And the problems it creates.  Natural-born citizenship* = children born into this land.  Correct? 

I like children, don't get me wrong, I don't like to see them hungry.  But they are born here purposefully to extract rights and money from the system, like a wedge in the legal door which would be closed under other circumstanses. 

They are used as a tool.  That is just plain wrong. 

*
Quote
All persons born in the United States are citizens by birth. There is some debate over whether other persons with citizenship can also be considered citizens by birth, or whether they should all be considered citizens by law (thus "naturalized"). Current US statutes define certain individuals born overseas as citizens by birth.[3] One side of the argument interprets the Constitution as meaning that a person either is born in the United States or is a naturalized citizen. Thus, to be a "natural born citizen," a person must be born in the United States; otherwise, they are citizens by law and are naturalized.[4] To others, the statute that grants citizenship to American children born overseas exempts them from the term "naturalized" and thus, as with the 1790 law, they are to be considered "natural born citizens" eligible for the Presidency.[5] Examples of persons who become citizens at birth (whether "naturalized" or "natural born") would include: birth to Americans overseas, or birth on U.S. soil, territories, or military bases overseas.[6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen
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mikehz

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2007, 09:05:35 PM »

How 'bout, anyone can come here, but if you commit a felony you're out. That includes homegrown criminals.
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Jason Orr

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2007, 09:07:05 PM »

How 'bout, anyone can come here, but if you commit a felony you're out. That includes homegrown criminals.


But... where would you send native felons?  Guantanamo Bay?
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mikehz

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2007, 10:50:05 PM »

Contract them out to, say, Mexico. Pay the government a couple thousand bucks a year to incarcerate them there. Much cheaper than keeping them here.

And, at the end of their sentence, they have the honor and privilege of becoming Mexican citizens.
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Zhwazi

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2007, 10:53:01 PM »

How 'bout, anyone can come here, but if you commit a felony you're out. That includes homegrown criminals.
How about no? It's a felony to do a lot of things that are perfectly within my rights.
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mikehz

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2007, 11:41:59 PM »

How 'bout, anyone can come here, but if you commit a felony you're out. That includes homegrown criminals.
How about no? It's a felony to do a lot of things that are perfectly within my rights.

I mean, real felonies. You know--like the sort of crimes that actually hurt people. Murder, rape, sending out spam--THAT sort of thing.
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YixilTesiphon

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2007, 11:46:48 PM »

How 'bout, anyone can come here, but if you commit a felony you're out. That includes homegrown criminals.
How about no? It's a felony to do a lot of things that are perfectly within my rights.

I mean, real felonies. You know--like the sort of crimes that actually hurt people. Murder, rape, sending out spam--THAT sort of thing.

You implement that and I'll be flying a plane with my left buttcheek.
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bonerjoe

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2007, 11:55:41 PM »

How 'bout, anyone can come here, but if you commit a felony you're out. That includes homegrown criminals.
How about no? It's a felony to do a lot of things that are perfectly within my rights.

I mean, real felonies. You know--like the sort of crimes that actually hurt people. Murder, rape, sending out spam--THAT sort of thing.

You implement that and I'll be flying a plane with my left buttcheek.

What?
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mikehz

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2007, 09:32:22 AM »

I didn't say this would happen. But, if the big fear of immigration is crime, then it make more sense to throw out those actually committing crimes while welcoming in those who keep the peace. It just goes to show that fear of criminals is only a cover for the real reason many Americans fear immigration, which is racism. No one is much concerned about people coming here--provided they are the "right" color. Russians, and other whites, do come here, both legally and illegally. "But, that's different. They're whi..., er, they assimilate."

Eliminate the arguments against open borders one by one, and eventually you are left with the real reason Americans hate immigrants.
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