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Poll

If America becomes the only industrialized nation to completely open its borders to uncontrolled immigration, as Ian suggests, how many people would move here?

More than 4,000,000,000
- 22 (32.4%)
More than 3,000,000,000
- 0 (0%)
More than 2,000,000,000
- 0 (0%)
More than 1,000,000,000
- 2 (2.9%)
More than 500,000,000
- 6 (8.8%)
More than 250,000,000
- 5 (7.4%)
More than 100,000,000
- 5 (7.4%)
More than 50,000,000
- 8 (11.8%)
More than 25,000,000
- 5 (7.4%)
More than 10,000,000
- 7 (10.3%)
Less than 10,000,000
- 8 (11.8%)

Total Members Voted: 30


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Author Topic: If we had open borders ...  (Read 37079 times)

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BKO

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2008, 01:26:47 PM »

Bonerjoe hits the nail on the head. +++

And I was only joking about the smallpox.

The FTL crowd, and Libertarians who tout open borders as being important and necessary are only using that platform to gain support for their agendas, which include utopian rhetoric and fantastic stories to incorporate wonderful, considerate, kind people and expecting the rest of humanity to magically follow suit. The plain reality of it all is that the world is full of deceitful, hateful, lazy, jealous morons who care nothing for Liberty and only want a handout and a free ride. Enter, stage left: Mexicans.

Right now most of you do not recognize the threat that millions of immigrants impose; immigrants who fly the red, white, and green flag and despise the evil white man. These are people who can quickly outnumber traditional Americans (who come from all over the world) who have already learned what liberty is and that it must be constantly maintained. These Mexican immigrants are tools to be controlled by every tyrant in a political office because they offer something that they want more than freedom.

The same can be said for the rest of the American citizenry, with one key exception: they learn at an early age what the constitution is, they know that this is a government OF the people. Mexican immigrants, especially the illegals do not seem to care about our traditions, our heritage, our rights. And as Badnarik once said, "how do you expect to defend your rights if you don't even know what they are?"

And now comes the typical anarcho-capitalist response: "your government is not legitimate and why should I defend traditional authority?" Look motherfuckers, you arrived at this juncture on the backs of your forefathers...you fucked up -we fucked up. It doesn't mean that you now have a free ticket to scrutinize a minarchy gone wrong and pretend to be an expert of social constructs. When you fail at something, you either learn from your mistakes or you continue to suck shit and die. It doesn't mean that you scrap the whole campaign and come up with ridiculous theories as if the whole country were your personal Sim City paradise. It doesn't work that fucking way.

Right now, we could far more easily rebuild our republic (which has been transformed into a democracy, or more accurately defined, a constitutional dictatorship) and establish a working minarchy by learning from our mistakes of the past than to spend countless eons arguing over the idiocy of regurgitated playtime dreams which only anarchists and children can agree upon.

And damnit, now you've gone and made me type all that shit again. I believe that I shall blame the Mexicans. Yes, that will do nicely.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 01:33:14 PM by Brokor »
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2008, 01:49:26 PM »


The FTL crowd, and Libertarians who tout open borders as being important and necessary are only using that platform to gain support for their agendas, which include utopian rhetoric and fantastic stories to incorporate wonderful, considerate, kind people and expecting the rest of humanity to magically follow suit. The plain reality of it all is that the world is full of deceitful, hateful, lazy, jealous morons who care nothing for Liberty and only want a handout and a free ride. Enter, stage left: Mexicans.

You have it backwards. Libertarians don't expect everyone to be good people. We want to be free to choose not to do business with evil people.  *Note: I don't claim to be the elected spokesperson for all libertarians*

You live in a fantasy world where we will somehow magically get honest, competent, politicians who will suddenly start running our lives in a just way. That is never going to happen. The only thing that will stop freeloaders from leeching off of our free giveaways is to stop the free giveaways.

Too many deceitful, hateful, lazy, jealous morons are already here and aren't Mexicans. I say we allow hard-working, good people in. What separates them from the bad? My freedom to choose with whom I associate.

Full disclosure: I'm married to a woman who was born in Mexico, migrated here, works hard as a highly specialized professional, and is probably taking work away from a less competent person who was naturally born here. She didn't need to lower her billing rate to get the job.
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markuzick

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2008, 08:28:49 PM »

You underestimate the people's desire to come to America, even if it is to make $1500 a year instead of $1000.  There are 6.5+ billion people in this world, most of whom are much poorer than you or I, and the number of them who'd be willing to drop everything and come to America is very high.  The average beggar in NYC clears several dozen times more money per day than what the poorest billion of people in the world are living on!  And with all the container ships going between our coasts and the third world, the price of basic passage is fairly accessible even to the poorest of the poor, especially if they can get a micro-credit loan to pay off after they get here.

That's ridiculous! If they were only worth $1500 per annum, they wouldn't be able to afford to stay here. They would have no choice but to go back and it's unlikely, given those circumstances, that they would come in the first place.

Quote
And you overestimate the limiting factors, such as the cost of living.  Lack of government regulation when it comes to real estate is probably a good thing, but it would allow for people to live very cheaply in shanty towns or, more likely, private "workers' residence" ghettos built by businesses sponsoring the importation of cheap labor.  I'm not against all those things in of themselves, but I do believe that they would sooner or later lead to political instability and socialism.  Thus is human nature: people who can barely afford to feed their children will always feel justified to rob the rich.

Low level jobs and "sweat shops" have always been the first stepping stone on the path to upward mobility. Stripping immigrants of state welfare benefits and political power leaves them with only one avenue to improve their lives; education, hard work, savings and entrepreneurship.

Riots, robbery and other criminal activities would only serve to get them fired and/or deported. If conditions became that bad, many would leave on their own.

Quote
Hopefully 2-3 generations from now all parts of the world will experience sufficient economic growth where mobs of angry poor people will no longer be as much of a threat, but until then - we need some limits on immigration.

Immigrants are individuals of above average ambition seeking a better life, not an angry mob of invaders, who would rightly be repelled with defensive force. The only proper precaution to take with respect to immigration policy is to remove all incentives for parasitical behavior.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Alex Libman

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2008, 05:25:08 AM »

Hey markuzick, what countries have you been to in your lifetime?  A nice tour of the third world, especially the parts still stuck in socialism because that seems to be the best those people are capable of, would knock that irrational faith right out of you.  Not that you'd need to go very far - every single Russian / Ukrainian immigrant I know in NJ is involved in some serious welfare / Medicaid fraud!  A mere plane / train / boat ticket (the prices for which will be falling ever lower) could transport a person from a socialist country to your open-border utopia, but it takes a lot more than that to take socialism out of a person!

The homeless bum who made his way to Manhattan might have higher ambitions compared to the homeless bum sleeping in the woods of West Virginia, but what benefit does he bring to the city?  What if there was 50 thousand bums like that crowding into Manhattan?  What if there was 50 million?  It won't happen of course, but what mechanism would stop it?  Precisely the mechanism that you're trying to take away!

Immigration works very well when the strongest and bravest of any country come to America ready to fight for their place in the sun and integrate into the established functional middle-class society.  The "give us your tired, your poor" crap is socialist propaganda.  The people who've become successful in America are not representative of the 6.5 billion people on this planet.

Take away natural selection, and you get cancer-like growth and then collapse.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 06:01:23 AM by Alex Libman »
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2008, 12:31:04 AM »

Here's my stance on welfare. I think there should be a small safety net for the general public. BUT... That safety net should only be applied only to disabled people and those people must provide proof that they are not physically capable of working. I think the current welfare system can do a lot of trimming and that would also benefit the tax payer as well. Right now it is just too vulnerable to too many fraudsters.

The best safety net would be provided by people who actually care enough about their fellow humans to provide it and are allowed to seek assurances that they are not being defrauded. If the person who is helping others can take as much as he wants from his fellow man then where is the motivation to make sure he is not helping someone who doesn't deserve it.

Take charity out of the hands of the power hungry.
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jimmed

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2008, 12:32:30 AM »

Here's my stance on welfare. I think there should be a small safety net for the general public. BUT... That safety net should only be applied only to disabled people and those people must provide proof that they are not physically capable of working. I think the current welfare system can do a lot of trimming and that would also benefit the tax payer as well. Right now it is just too vulnerable to too many fraudsters.

No.
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jimmed

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2008, 01:03:17 AM »

By the way, I'm talking about trimming down the current system. Getting rid of all the leaching scum-bums is already by itself an improvement.

Why not let charity help the charity cases?
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jimmed

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2008, 01:16:57 AM »

Why not let charity help the charity cases?

I agree with that. Here's the thing... I think by having welfare directed only towards the severely disabled is the only way to get the majority of the people in the U.S. to agree on the welfare trimming. That's the only way you can get at least half of the socialists to shut up about it. Go ahead, try telling them you want to get rid of welfare completely... Let's see Ron Paul run with that issue. I don't remember him doing that.

Why not get rid of all welfare? The socialists aren't going to agree to your plan anyways.
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Harry Tuttle

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2008, 01:23:03 AM »

Right now, I don't think there are enough of private organizations or "fellow humans" that help the severely disabled. I also don't want to go down the road where we have them rotting to death in their homes.

But what do you base that opinion on? I'm surrounded by people who willingly help others every day. I used to participate in an adult literacy program. My father-in-law, on his tiny pension with no money to spare, still can't walk by a person who is holding out his hand.

I submit to you, sir, that the government is stealing valuable resources from generous people everywhere and is cutting the legs out from under private charities - whilst simultaneously encouraging leeches by providing countless programs to give away money to those who do not need it.

That's the principal of it.

I agree with that. Here's the thing... I think by having welfare directed only towards the severely disabled is the only way to get the majority of the people in the U.S. to agree on the welfare trimming. That's the only way you can get at least half of the socialists to shut up about it. Go ahead, try telling them you want to get rid of welfare completely... Let's see Ron Paul run with that issue. I don't remember him doing that.

I do agree that the "how to get there from here" is tricky. I think in the spirit of Ron Paul's other opinions he would probably suggest "grandfathering" people already on these programs and funding them with funds freed-up from savings by slashing the heavy crap programs.

Why not get rid of all welfare? The socialists aren't going to agree to your plan anyways.

this
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jimmed

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2008, 01:42:32 AM »

You might just get a good portion to agree. Compare that number to the number of people that would agree on getting rid of welfare altogether.

The only way they will agree is when it's forced on them.

Daydreams do not equal reality.
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markuzick

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2008, 04:53:00 AM »

Hey markuzick, what countries have you been to in your lifetime?  A nice tour of the third world, especially the parts still stuck in socialism because that seems to be the best those people are capable of, would knock that irrational faith right out of you.  Not that you'd need to go very far - every single Russian / Ukrainian immigrant I know in NJ is involved in some serious welfare / Medicaid fraud!  A mere plane / train / boat ticket (the prices for which will be falling ever lower) could transport a person from a socialist country to your open-border utopia, but it takes a lot more than that to take socialism out of a person!

The homeless bum who made his way to Manhattan might have higher ambitions compared to the homeless bum sleeping in the woods of West Virginia, but what benefit does he bring to the city?  What if there was 50 thousand bums like that crowding into Manhattan?  What if there was 50 million?  It won't happen of course, but what mechanism would stop it?  Precisely the mechanism that you're trying to take away!

Immigration works very well when the strongest and bravest of any country come to America ready to fight for their place in the sun and integrate into the established functional middle-class society.  The "give us your tired, your poor" crap is socialist propaganda.  The people who've become successful in America are not representative of the 6.5 billion people on this planet.

Take away natural selection, and you get cancer-like growth and then collapse.

You are very dishonest to cut that quote in a way that completely changes its meaning. It actually goes, "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free...".

It's also dishonest of you to make an irrational post like this as an answer to my proposal to remove any incentive for the parasitical type of immigration to take place.

If you're going to make replies, then try addressing what you're replying to. Non-responsive, repetitive speeches that evade the issues in dispute, simply don't cut it as a sincere reply.

Your whole approach to this issue is a perfect example of extreme knee jerk statism. Using your type of statist logic, the fact that there are so many businesses that feed at the public trough means that we should prohibit the formation of any new businesses, until the day comes that we get rid of corporate welfare, business subsidies, state licencing and regulations that restrict competition and environmental regulations that permit polluting businesses to be exempt from being sued by victims whose health and/or property is damaged by them.

Why aren't you a statist on this issue too?

I know that you're smart enough to see the parallels between the "logic" of your position and, not only my "new business" example, but all other statist positions.

Keep up with this inconsistency and keep replying evasively and it will soon be obvious that you're a xenophobe. Skeptical beliefs about the subject of immigration does not make you a xenophobe, but evasiveness and inconsistency in the application of logic that continue unabated and unanswered for, when they are pointed out, would indicate that you are.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Alex Libman

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2008, 10:30:04 AM »

That part of the quote is a complete wildcard - anyone could claim to be "longing to be free", because the English language has merged a dozen different concepts into that one word.  Is it national freedom, religious freedom, financial freedom, freedom from poverty, freedom from having to work hard, or just some free beer?  Well, I've met a lot of immigrants who couldn't care less about political freedoms, to them welfare is freedom.

I already told you half-a-dozen times that you fail to propose a realistic scenario for having open borders without this country becoming politically unstable as it goes from having a mostly-middle-class to a mostly-poor population.

I'm not a xenophobe, I'm a poor-people-phobe.  There has never been a free society without a dominant middle class.
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Arsenic

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2008, 01:04:41 PM »

All this reminds me of the time I got in a shouting match with my little sister because I told her I support uncontrolled open immigration, I welcome anyone into the country and you shouldn't be in huge legal trouble just because you came in a certain way.

Viva La Open Immigration
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markuzick

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2008, 06:49:41 PM »

That part of the quote is a complete wildcard - anyone could claim to be "longing to be free", because the English language has merged a dozen different concepts into that one word.  Is it national freedom, religious freedom, financial freedom, freedom from poverty, freedom from having to work hard, or just some free beer?  Well, I've met a lot of immigrants who couldn't care less about political freedoms, to them welfare is freedom.

I already told you half-a-dozen times that you fail to propose a realistic scenario for having open borders without this country becoming politically unstable as it goes from having a mostly-middle-class to a mostly-poor population.

I'm not a xenophobe, I'm a poor-people-phobe.  There has never been a free society without a dominant middle class.


Well, you at least admit that your opinion is based on phobia and so is, therefore, based on irrational fear.

This is further evidenced by the fact that response still fails to address anything that I've said, except in the vaguest possible terms:

Quote
I already told you half-a-dozen times that you fail to propose a realistic scenario for having open borders without this country becoming politically unstable as it goes from having a mostly-middle-class to a mostly-poor population.

There is no logic or evidence to support such a broad statement. It also implies that you are purposely ignoring my explanation of how free market incentives, if not undermined by perverse state mandated incentives, is self correcting in a way that prevents such gross imbalances in population shifts from occurring.

You also failed to address my argument that since state interference in every single form of human endeavour can create potential disaster, then by your logic, as applied to immigration, all human endeavors should be outlawed or highly regulated by the state until such time as there is no more state.

This means that while you prefer no state, you advocate total slavery to the state for as long as there is a state.

Do you expect to be taken seriously?
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Alex Libman

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Re: If we had open borders ...
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2008, 07:30:18 PM »

It's like talking to a wall...
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