Welcome to the Free Talk Live bulletin board system!
This board is closed to new users and new posts.  Thank you to all our great mods and users over the years.  Details here.
185859 Posts in 9829 Topics by 1371 Members
Latest Member: cjt26
Home Help
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Polling Pit
| | |-+  I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth

Poll

Is "stealing" wifi bad?

Yes
- 14 (20.3%)
Maybe
- 4 (5.8%)
No
- 20 (29%)
Unsure
- 4 (5.8%)
Depends
- 27 (39.1%)

Total Members Voted: 29


Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 17   Go Down

Author Topic: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth  (Read 39260 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ladyattis

  • Guest
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #195 on: December 23, 2006, 03:03:21 AM »

Ownership in this context is set upon the causal connection between prior possession and current use. You can't possess any one particular photon of a radio signal since that is physically impossible and air is equally of this type, even when you use tanks and valves the air always escapes over time.

This is where things get funny, because this same context of ownership also refutes geolibertarianism since it shows since land in itself can be absolutely excluded and contained then ownership of it conversely is outright. :)

Two birds, one stone. QED, baby!

-- Bridget
Logged

Zhwazi

  • Recovering Ex-Anarchocapitalist
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3102
    • View Profile
    • Ana.rchist.net
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #196 on: December 23, 2006, 03:25:39 AM »

How close does it have to be to "air" in order to be unownable?
It's un-ownable since it is inherent to the condition of being on Earth. The air itself is not what is owned when you own a scuba tank, it is the tank. And any tampering with the tank is a violation of your ownership of the tank, but not the air. You seem to not get the idea very clearly do you? Nor can you own the components of air either. *yawns* So stop trying to refute me when you can't even do it half-way decently.
Of course it's easy to look like you're winning when you ignore a large portion of what I said and reply to a small portion taken out of context, non-responsively (not answering my damn question), and ignoring the real issue. If you'd like answer my questions, please, do so, until then, I'm not interested in continuing this portion of the arguement, I'll assume you concede if you can't address what I posted IN FULL.

Quote
X has Y first, thus outright. If Z comes by to deprive by force or fraud X's Y then Z has committed theft because X owns Y by prior control since 9/10s of ownership is possession. Got it?
How did X aquire Y? If X traded with W, how did W aquire it, if we assume W was the one who originally owned it? Why is prior control 9/10 of ownership? Why not 4/5? Why not 99%?
Logged

Zhwazi

  • Recovering Ex-Anarchocapitalist
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3102
    • View Profile
    • Ana.rchist.net
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #197 on: December 23, 2006, 03:28:57 AM »

Ownership in this context is set upon the causal connection between prior possession and current use. You can't possess any one particular photon of a radio signal since that is physically impossible and air is equally of this type, even when you use tanks and valves the air always escapes over time.
Does that make it true then, that all gases are absolutely unownable? Your above rationale applies to all gases. Can methane be owned in gaseous form? Neon? Argon? Nitrogen? A "None can be owned", "All can be owned", or "X, Y, and Z can be owned because 1, A and B cannot because 2" would be a responsive answer.
Logged

Brian Wolf

  • Guest
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #198 on: December 23, 2006, 03:52:57 AM »

Why are we arguing over whether or not you can own elements or not?
Isn't the issue about bandwidth?

Keti, you seem to agree with the fact that the person who is acting as your ISP 'owns' his bandwidth right?
"Bandwidth" is a service that this guy is paying for.

Its also a service that he is sharing with his immediate neighbors. We do not know whether he knows this or not, but it remains a fact.
Three possible scenarios exist. A) the guy is sharing his connection intentionally and B) the guy is ignorant of the fact, but would not care if he knew about it, and C) he is ignorant and would not like it if he knew about it.

Can everyone at least agree that if the answer is C then it is wrong?

What about A & B? What would be 'wrong' about accepting generosity from you neighbors?

Why does everyone seem to disregard A? Tell you what. If any of you want to come over to my house and sit in my driveway and connect to my WiFi you are more than welcome to. Hell, if you are relatively normal and don't smell to bad, I'll even invite you in and you can plug into my LAN. I have a lot of stuff in my shared network folder you could help yourself too if you want.
Shit, It does not cost me a extra dime anyway. Why should I care.
Information is power. The more information that people have the less ignorant they will become. Less ignorant people = a good thing.
Logged

Zhwazi

  • Recovering Ex-Anarchocapitalist
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3102
    • View Profile
    • Ana.rchist.net
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #199 on: December 23, 2006, 04:07:18 AM »

Why are we arguing over whether or not you can own elements or not?
Because I say that you can own anything that's scarce, and ladyattis disagrees.

Quote
Isn't the issue about bandwidth?
One of the issues I have is whether or not they retain ownership of their network when I access it. I think they do. I can't control whether or not that network gives me access to their ISP to router bandwidth. To reprogram the router to do that would be taking control of the network out of their hands, and that's stealing.

Quote
Keti, you seem to agree with the fact that the person who is acting as your ISP 'owns' his bandwidth right?
"Bandwidth" is a service that this guy is paying for.
Yep.

Quote
Its also a service that he is sharing with his immediate neighbors. We do not know whether he knows this or not, but it remains a fact.
Three possible scenarios exist. A) the guy is sharing his connection intentionally and B) the guy is ignorant of the fact, but would not care if he knew about it, and C) he is ignorant and would not like it if he knew about it.
Or D) he doesn't want people connecting but insists on leaving the network open anyways so he can throw a fucking hissyfit when someone connects. Like Earthwormzim.

Quote
Can everyone at least agree that if the answer is C then it is wrong?
Not necessarily. This is kinda like the woodchip example given earlier in the thread. If someone is mulching some wood, and some of the chips are flying onto your property, do you get to keep the chips that land in your yard, or is it still theirs? Just because they don't know about it and wouldn't like it if they did doesn't mean it's wrong. The woodchipper doesn't know and wouldn't like it if he did, but it's still your woodchips now that they're on your land.

Quote
What about A & B? What would be 'wrong' about accepting generosity from you neighbors?
Of course not.

Quote
Why does everyone seem to disregard A?
It interferes with Earthwormzim's ability to repeatedly use the word "grab-ass", so that possibility is ignored.

Quote
Tell you what. If any of you want to come over to my house and sit in my driveway and connect to my WiFi you are more than welcome to. Hell, if you are relatively normal and don't smell to bad, I'll even invite you in and you can plug into my LAN. I have a lot of stuff in my shared network folder you could help yourself too if you want.
Shit, It does not cost me a extra dime anyway. Why should I care.
Information is power. The more information that people have the less ignorant they will become. Less ignorant people = a good thing.
Got Halo 2 and an Xbox? I'll bring pizzas if you do.
Logged

Taors

  • Guest
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #200 on: December 23, 2006, 04:09:51 AM »


Why does everyone seem to disregard A? Tell you what. If any of you want to come over to my house and sit in my driveway and connect to my WiFi you are more than welcome to. Hell, if you are relatively normal and don't smell to bad, I'll even invite you in and you can plug into my LAN. I have a lot of stuff in my shared network folder you could help yourself too if you want.
Shit, It does not cost me a extra dime anyway. Why should I care.
Information is power. The more information that people have the less ignorant they will become. Less ignorant people = a good thing.


Dude. If you have pot, I'm there. We live right next to each other.
Logged

EternityAblaze

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #201 on: December 23, 2006, 04:19:42 AM »

I still think everyone is confusing the right of using airwaves with the right of property.  Airwaves are up for grab, yes, but bandwidth is not.  You can't use one to justify the right of stealing the other.


You didn't even read my retort. GTFO my thread or learn how to read.

I must get out because??  You own the forums? : ()
I don't have to learn to read if you don't have to tell people how to setup their routers!  Its only fair!

Anyways, you guy are all taking this discussion too far.  Everyone has their opinions of what's naturally right, and whats naturally wrong.  I can't convince someone of another culture that sacrifices to gods are wrong, likewise, we obviously can't convince you guys that stealing bandwidth through wifi is wrong.

Oh well, guess life is over now eh?

« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 04:21:36 AM by EternityAblaze »
Logged

Taors

  • Guest
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #202 on: December 23, 2006, 04:22:44 AM »

I still think everyone is confusing the right of using airwaves with the right of property.  Airwaves are up for grab, yes, but bandwidth is not.  You can't use one to justify the right of stealing the other.


You didn't even read my retort. GTFO my thread or learn how to read.

I must get out because??  You own the forums? : ()
I don't have to learn to read if you don't have to tell people how to setup their routers!  Its only fair!

Anyways, you guy are all taking this discussion too far.  Everyone has their opinions of what's naturally right, and whats naturally wrong.  I can't convince someone of another culture that sacrifices to gods are wrong, likewise, we obviously can't convince you guys that stealing bandwidth through wifi is wrong.

Oh well, guess life is over now eh?



But are you willing to force Keti to stop his 'stealing'?
Logged

Zhwazi

  • Recovering Ex-Anarchocapitalist
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3102
    • View Profile
    • Ana.rchist.net
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #203 on: December 23, 2006, 04:24:41 AM »

I must get out because??  You own the forums? : ()
Because I was trying to express my frustration at you acting as if nobody had any rebuttal to what you said, when I did. And I think it's the post right after where you first put forth that idea.


Quote
I don't have to learn to read if you don't have to tell people how to setup their routers!  Its only fair!
First of all I was joking and second, that's completely nonsensical.
Logged

EternityAblaze

  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #204 on: December 23, 2006, 04:25:37 AM »

I wouldn't force people to stop their religions, nor stop what they feel is right.  Just don't push your religious beliefs on me and don't let your beliefs interfere with my life.

This holds true with the wifi thing.  Steal anyone elses bandwidth as much as you want and keep off mine.  Just don't come crying when its done back to you. 

Edit:  Btw, you guys are damn karma whores.  Soon as someone rebutts you and/or has a different opinion than you, you hurry over to that little minus button.  ffs people.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 04:27:21 AM by EternityAblaze »
Logged

Brian Wolf

  • Guest
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #205 on: December 23, 2006, 04:28:09 AM »


Why does everyone seem to disregard A? Tell you what. If any of you want to come over to my house and sit in my driveway and connect to my WiFi you are more than welcome to. Hell, if you are relatively normal and don't smell to bad, I'll even invite you in and you can plug into my LAN. I have a lot of stuff in my shared network folder you could help yourself too if you want.
Shit, It does not cost me a extra dime anyway. Why should I care.
Information is power. The more information that people have the less ignorant they will become. Less ignorant people = a good thing.


Dude. If you have pot, I'm there. We live right next to each other.

Right now I only have a PS2 and a Gamecube. I can't decide if I want to get a Wii or a 360 next. I want them both but we are trying to save money right now. Actually my DS got stolen not to long ago and I will probably replace that first.
Logged

Zhwazi

  • Recovering Ex-Anarchocapitalist
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3102
    • View Profile
    • Ana.rchist.net
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #206 on: December 23, 2006, 04:34:39 AM »

Dude. If you have pot, I'm there. We live right next to each other.

Right now I only have a PS2 and a Gamecube. I can't decide if I want to get a Wii or a 360 next. I want them both but we are trying to save money right now. Actually my DS got stolen not to long ago and I will probably replace that first.
Quoted the wrong post. But noted.
Logged

Brian Wolf

  • Guest
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #207 on: December 23, 2006, 04:55:34 AM »

Quote
Quoted the wrong post. But noted.
My bad part of that got cut off.

Can everyone at least agree that if the answer is C then it is wrong?
Not necessarily. This is kinda like the woodchip example given earlier in the thread. If someone is mulching some wood, and some of the chips are flying onto your property, do you get to keep the chips that land in your yard, or is it still theirs? Just because they don't know about it and wouldn't like it if they did doesn't mean it's wrong. The woodchipper doesn't know and wouldn't like it if he did, but it's still your woodchips now that they're on your land.

But it isn't exactly like that though. The woodchips are only going in one direction and no matter how many woodchips you keep for yourself, it will not effect the performance of the woodchipper or how many chips it could produce.

Lets try this analogy.
Lets say that your neighbor subscribes to the service "Lawn Care".
You both have huge amounts of lawn that needs to be mowed, and it is hard to tell where your property ends and his begins.
He has it set up so that his lawn would be mowed while he is at work.
Now the gardener no habla English, so he hires two little Mexican kids to stand on his property and point to where the lawn needs to be mowed.
Then he tells the lawn care company to have the gardener mow every section of ground that has a Mexican kid pointing at in in a certain radius around his house.
Now you find out somehow about this arrangement. Now if you do nothing, you will not receive th is service. You must go out and hire your own Mexican kids (your Wifi Card in this case) and have them point at your lawn.
Now, assume that you do that. The Gardener gets so busy mowing your lawn, that he does not have a proper amount of time to mow his actual clients lawn. If he finds out that someone knows about his secret and is mad because his lawn  looks like crap but he does not know who exactly is "using up" all of his lawn care service. We have to assume that the guy is too ignorant to call up the lawn care service and make some sort of reasonable arrangement with them like "Only mow where the Mexican kids are  pointing if they now this secret password.
Would it be okay for you, knowing that the guys is not happy about it, and is being denied the proper use of his service because of  your actions to continue to have your own Mexican kids pointing at your lawn?
Logged

Zhwazi

  • Recovering Ex-Anarchocapitalist
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3102
    • View Profile
    • Ana.rchist.net
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #208 on: December 23, 2006, 05:52:49 AM »

That metaphor is too clumsy and unlikely...let's just deal with wifi. No more metaphors.

The issue for me is who rightly controls what.

The ISP gives control of the connection to the router owner. The router owner gives control of the connection to the router. The router gives control of the connection to me.

The appearant conflict is whether or not the router can rightly give me control of the connection. I say it can, it has the "authority" given to it by the router owner. The router owner gave it that authority because he didn't want to do the job himself.

The entire thing is, in this way, voluntary.

If the router owner was unaware that he gave the router control of the connection, and discovers that he has, he can, at any time, rightly take that authority away from the router, or limit it.

I don't see any part of using an unprotected network as force or fraud, and it certainly doesn't violate life or liberty, and I don't see that it violates property rights because everyone still has total control of their property except that they gave to another to use.
Logged

bonerjoe

  • Guest
Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #209 on: December 23, 2006, 09:23:43 AM »

Nope, you don't own the radio waves. :) Next you'll say you own the air around you. :lol:
-- Bridget

Who said anything about OWNING radio waves? I merely said if they come onto my property they are mine. Mine to use as I please. I can't own them, but I can capture their modulationsm or induce them to my benefit.

P.S. I can posesss sun rays by turning them into useable energy and storing it. I can certainly sell that power to others if I choose.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 17   Go Up
+  The Free Talk Live BBS
|-+  Free Talk Live
| |-+  The Polling Pit
| | |-+  I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth

// ]]>

Page created in 0.034 seconds with 37 queries.