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Poll

Is "stealing" wifi bad?

Yes
- 14 (20.3%)
Maybe
- 4 (5.8%)
No
- 20 (29%)
Unsure
- 4 (5.8%)
Depends
- 27 (39.1%)

Total Members Voted: 29


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Author Topic: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth  (Read 39633 times)

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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2006, 11:59:59 PM »

It's like this.

You send radio waves onto my property. At this point, they become my property. I use what I know about the radio waves (now my property), and send a certain pattern back and put them on your property.

I have absolutely NO CONTROL over what happens with those radio waves after they go onto your property. Whatever happens from that point on is the fault/problem of the owner. I am not depriving you of bandwidth, you are setting up a system whereby you unwittingly use your own bandwidth to allow me a connection. I'm not stealing the connection. I'm just reading the crap your machine throws at me, and throwing crap back at it. I happen to be able to do this in such a way as to get something I want out of the deal.

No deprival of property is involved. No force is involved. No aggression is involved. Not even implicit aggression.

Stealing wifi != bad.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 12:42:59 AM by Keti »
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aquabanianskakid

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2006, 12:03:40 AM »

Boo hoo hoo lets cry a few tears for your cause. I'm sure next week you will be running water pipes right through my land. Of course I will have no right to the pipes or water because it isn't really my land, and I would be stealing from their water pumps. Water pumps=physical internet connection      Pipes=Radiowaves
See where I'm coming from yet, or are you going to keep telling me I'm a stealing socialist because you can't make any new points?
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Wayne

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2006, 01:10:33 AM »

I think Earthwormzim has a bit of a point.

If you aim a microwave weapon onto your neighbor's property, and fry his cat (and a good section of his front lawn), are you not responsible just because you used a portion of the EM spectrum and didn't run over and touch the cat directly?

Wi-fi is a two-way street. Reading signals broadcast onto your land? OK. Targeting a broadcast onto your neighbors land in a way to deprive him of property? That's causing harm... it may only be a few cents worth, or if he doesn't exceed his monthly limit, there may not even be damage done. But to say that you cannot be causing harm by using someone else's wi-fi is flat wrong.

Otherwise... someone could easily harm a neighbor who has irritated him by just hopping onto his wi-fi and downloading as much as he could, 24/7, without even viewing the content, and forcing him to pay extra fees. The existance of encryption doesn't change what you're doing... if you steal your neighbor's Rolex from his nightstand, you're still a thief even if he didn't lock his door.

Now, I think this is all extreme... and most of the time it's a non-issue. But's let not kid ourselves about what's really going on, or about the possibilities.

-Wayne
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Johnny_

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2006, 01:11:29 AM »

Don't forget that wifi isn't a one-way connection.  You have to interfere (aka, leech bandwidth) with the operation of the router in order to establish a connection to the internet.

When you access someone else's computer without their permission, it's a felony.  Accessing a router is no different, it's just a smaller, simpler computer.  I certainly don't think leeching wifi should be a felony or anything, I'm just saying that unauthorized access to a machine can be a legal matter.

Anyone can make a good case for why you should be legally allowed to intercept and analyze any radio waves that go on your property.  I agree.  But wifi doesn't work that way, you have to connect to a machine (the router) you do not have permission to connect to in order to access the internet.

But like I said in my first post, just lock it up and all the issues go away. 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 01:13:18 AM by Johnny_ »
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2006, 01:39:50 AM »

If anyone knows about Nikola Tesla...he developed a way to transmit electricity without wires...in other words, through the air.  Wouldn't it be funny if someone were to develop a device that could draw electricity directly from any power line through the air?  Then, your neighbor could target your power lines (after the meter), and use all the power he/she wants...and never have to pay for it...all-the-while forcing you to pay for it.

Anywho...on a different note...I pay X amount of dollars for my bandwidth, each month.  And for fun, I like to run a Shoutcast radio station every once in a while.  And when I'm running my station, I like to have as many listeners as possible, but maintain the highest level of stream quality as possible.

If, one day, I decided to start using a wifi connection, and someone started to leech my bandwidth, the quality of the streams I'd be sending out could potentially be destroyed.  My listeners might hear long pauses/breaks in sound as their music players sit idle, trying to buffer the incoming data, all because some guy wants to steal my bandwidth...bandwidth that I paid for to use in any way that I want, including offering these streams without such a degradation in quality.

So, who are you to decide that it is ok to deprive me of this?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 01:52:34 AM by Earthwormzim »
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2006, 02:02:53 AM »

If you aim a microwave weapon onto your neighbor's property, and fry his cat (and a good section of his front lawn), are you not responsible just because you used a portion of the EM spectrum and didn't run over and touch the cat directly?
If you aim a static overpressure wave at your neighbor's house and blow the roof off it, it's the same thing, but we don't use that as an excuse to prohibit "freedom of speech" do we?

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Wi-fi is a two-way street. Reading signals broadcast onto your land? OK. Targeting a broadcast onto your neighbors land in a way to deprive him of property? That's causing harm... it may only be a few cents worth, or if he doesn't exceed his monthly limit, there may not even be damage done. But to say that you cannot be causing harm by using someone else's wi-fi is flat wrong.
If we consider it in terms of free speech, you're essentially saying "It's okay to listen to whatever people have to say, but talking to them when they're disinterested and wasting their time? That's causing harm. Sure, it might not be much, but blah blah blah." If they don't want to hear what you say or deal with your radio signals, they can walk away from it or encrypt the connection.

Quote
Otherwise... someone could easily harm a neighbor who has irritated him by just hopping onto his wi-fi and downloading as much as he could, 24/7, without even viewing the content, and forcing him to pay extra fees. The existance of encryption doesn't change what you're doing... if you steal your neighbor's Rolex from his nightstand, you're still a thief even if he didn't lock his door.
Wifi is a form of communication, not a tresspass. If I convince someone to go and give me their Rolex and toss it across the property line, I'm not doing anything wrong. If they delegate network connection management to a router, I'm still effectively convincing them (although their delegate) to go and give me data from such and such server, and toss it across the property line. This is a much more appropriate metaphor.


Don't forget that wifi isn't a one-way connection.  You have to interfere (aka, leech bandwidth) with the operation of the router in order to establish a connection to the internet.
The router establishes a connection on it's own in many cases. My computer that I'm posting from automatically connects to any wifi signals it finds. My computer isn't interfering with the operation of the router, it's doing exactly what the router expects.

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When you access someone else's computer without their permission, it's a felony.  Accessing a router is no different, it's just a smaller, simpler computer.  I certainly don't think leeching wifi should be a felony or anything, I'm just saying that unauthorized access to a machine can be a legal matter.
Authorized by the computer, or by the user? If I allow people to freely leech off my wifi, it's not a crime if they have no explicit permission from me, so I leave it open, is that unauthorized access if I don't know who's taking my wifi or whatever?

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Anyone can make a good case for why you should be legally allowed to intercept and analyze any radio waves that go on your property.  I agree.  But wifi doesn't work that way, you have to connect to a machine (the router) you do not have permission to connect to in order to access the internet.
But this is stupid. Wifi does work that way. It is two way, but it's two single broadcasts. I have the right to monitor, or not monitor, signals on my property at will. The same applies to someone somewhere else at the other end. They have the right to monitor, or not monitor, my responses to their signals. They choose to monitor the signals.

If anyone knows about Nikola Tesla...he developed a way to transmit electricity without wires...in other words, through the air.  Wouldn't it be funny if someone were to develop a device that could draw electricity directly from any power line through the air?  Then, your neighbor could target your power lines (after the meter), and use all the power he/she wants...and never have to pay for it...all-the-while forcing you to pay for it.
Insulate with plastic, wrap it in a faraday cage (metal screen will do), wrap that with plastic, problem solved.

Quote
Anywho...on a different note...I pay X amount of dollars for my bandwidth, each month.  And for fun, I like to run a Shoutcast radio station every once in a while.  And when I'm running my station, I like to have as many listeners as possible, but maintain the highest level of stream quality as possible.

If, one day, I decided to start using a wifi connection, and someone started to leech my bandwidth, the quality of the streams I'd be sending out could potentially be destroyed.  My listeners might hear long pauses/breaks in sound as their music players sit idle, trying to buffer the incoming data, all because some guy wants to steal my bandwidth...bandwidth that I paid for to use in any way that I want, including offering these streams without such a degradation in quality.

So, who are you to decide that it is ok to deprive me of this?
You delegate the task of monitoring incoming frequencies to a machine. You decided I could connect to your internet by proxy, by letting the machine authorize me to do so.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 02:32:27 AM by Keti »
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2006, 02:41:51 AM »

"By proxy"?  That's a load of BS.  Most people wouldn't even be aware that this sort of thing could happen.   And I'm sure none of them would agree that simply because they did not know better, that it automatically "by proxy" gives you permission to come in and steel their bandwidth.

"By proxy".  What a load of crap.

By that same mode of thought, do hackers get the "okidoki" to do whatever the fuck they want, simply because some people may know that they should be behind a firewall of some sort?

Hell...let's make all theft legal...if the person being stolen from didn't take all imaginable necessary precautions to thwart every type of theft known to man, no matter how technologically knowledgable or scientifically knowledgable it would require them to be, then they are just getting their just desserts, right?  The victim is the one to blame.

"Hah!  You didn't know that you should have put plastic insulation and a Faraday cage over your electric box and wires?  Lol!  You retard!  Gosh!  I'm glad people were stealing your power!"


« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 03:03:37 AM by Earthwormzim »
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2006, 03:56:58 AM »

"By proxy"?  That's a load of BS.  Most people wouldn't even be aware that this sort of thing could happen.   And I'm sure none of them would agree that simply because they did not know better, that it automatically "by proxy" gives you permission to come in and steel their bandwidth.
Oh, yay, here's that "most people wouldn't agree" arguement AGAIN. Second time in two days. I swear, if democracy created reality we'd be living in fucking heaven on earth. It doesn't. That arguement demonstrates nothing that rebuts or refutes what I said.

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By that same mode of thought, do hackers get the "okidoki" to do whatever the fuck they want, simply because some people may know that they should be behind a firewall of some sort?
Actually you're a bigger target if you're behind a firewall. Lots of hackers just hack to see if they can get into the system. An unprotected system is no challenge and thus no fun. But that's beside the point.

If you let anybody in, anyone can get in. If you let someone in that has the correct username and password, anyone with the UN/PW combo can get in.

If you don't encrypt your wifi, anyone can get in. If you let someone in that has the correct WEP key, anyone with the WEP key can get in.

Stealing wifi isn't hacking. The router, as part of it's normal, user-expected function, authorizes access. Now, if someone changes the settings on the router or buffer-overflow attacks your computer or whatever, that's different. That's the hacker taking control of the device away from you. This doesn't happen with stealing wifi. You retain total control over that router.

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Hell...let's make all theft legal...if the person being stolen from didn't take all imaginable necessary precautions to thwart every type of theft known to man, no matter how technologically knowledgable or scientifically knowledgable it would require them to be, then they are just getting their just desserts, right?  The victim is the one to blame.
My focus isn't on taking a measure to prevent it. It's on ownership. Ownership is absolute control. If you give control of your connection to a box that doesn't know any better, whatever that box does within the control you delegated to it is your fault. Taking control of that little box away from you would violate your ownership. Letting you keep control of that box and asking the box to do things for you (which you can tell it "yes do this, don't do that", and provided the programming wasn't altered by the hacker, which I don't do) does not violate your ownership of that wifi router.

Quote
"Hah!  You didn't know that you should have put plastic insulation and a Faraday cage over your electric box and wires?  Lol!  You retard!  Gosh!  I'm glad people were stealing your power!"
I was just pointing out that some defense did exist against that. It should also be noted the vast differences here. You're talking about the resource of power, I'm just talking about communication, an extension of freedom of speech.
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2006, 04:16:15 AM »

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Stealing wifi isn't hacking. The router, as part of it's normal, user-expected function, authorizes access. Now, if someone changes the settings on the router or buffer-overflow attacks your computer or whatever, that's different. That's the hacker taking control of the device away from you. This doesn't happen with stealing wifi. You retain total control over that router.

Never said stealing wifi was hacking...it's quite obvious that the two are different.  It was simply an example to demonstrate my point.

Again, it is obvious that no matter what I say, you are going to come up with anything you can to justify your theft.  I guess taking advantage of people who aren't as knowledgable about things as you is just what you do...apparently, it is just part of your character.

"By proxy"?  That's a load of BS.  Most people wouldn't even be aware that this sort of thing could happen.   And I'm sure none of them would agree that simply because they did not know better, that it automatically "by proxy" gives you permission to come in and steel their bandwidth.
Oh, yay, here's that "most people wouldn't agree" arguement AGAIN. Second time in two days. I swear, if democracy created reality we'd be living in fucking heaven on earth. It doesn't. That arguement demonstrates nothing that rebuts or refutes what I said.
WTF?  Where did you get his "democracy" crap?  This has nothing to do with "democracy".  It is simply a logical generalization.  Similarly, one might generalize that, "Most people would probably not want to die, if given the choice."  Where is the "democracy"?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 04:25:59 AM by Earthwormzim »
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2006, 04:24:07 AM »

What, no rebuttal to my various OTHER points? Then I assume you concede on all those?

Edit: Nevermind. You know, you can quote the whole post at the same time without going back and editing the post with new portions of the quote...

Democracy crap: "And I'm sure none of them would agree that simply because they did not know better, that it automatically "by proxy" gives you permission to come in and steel their bandwidth." This makes it sound as if what a majority of people think makes it what is so, and that's just not the case. If that's not the case, then it's not rebuttal to my arguement, if that's what you were trying to say, it's a very weak one.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 04:27:00 AM by Keti »
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2006, 04:40:30 AM »

"By proxy"?  That's a load of BS.  Most people wouldn't even be aware that this sort of thing could happen.   And I'm sure none of them would agree that simply because they did not know better, that it automatically "by proxy" gives you permission to come in and steel their bandwidth.
Oh, yay, here's that "most people wouldn't agree" arguement AGAIN. Second time in two days. I swear, if democracy created reality we'd be living in fucking heaven on earth. It doesn't. That arguement demonstrates nothing that rebuts or refutes what I said.
No democracy here.

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By that same mode of thought, do hackers get the "okidoki" to do whatever the fuck they want, simply because some people may know that they should be behind a firewall of some sort?
Actually you're a bigger target if you're behind a firewall. Lots of hackers just hack to see if they can get into the system. An unprotected system is no challenge and thus no fun. But that's beside the point.
Even though this has absolutely nothing to do with the argument, I'll concede.  Some hackers target machines with firewalls. 

If you let anybody in, anyone can get in. If you let someone in that has the correct username and password, anyone with the UN/PW combo can get in.

If you don't encrypt your wifi, anyone can get in. If you let someone in that has the correct WEP key, anyone with the WEP key can get in.
Just because I don't lock my door, it does not mean you're welcome in my house.

Stealing wifi isn't hacking. The router, as part of it's normal, user-expected function, authorizes access. Now, if someone changes the settings on the router or buffer-overflow attacks your computer or whatever, that's different. That's the hacker taking control of the device away from you. This doesn't happen with stealing wifi. You retain total control over that router.
Rebutted.

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Hell...let's make all theft legal...if the person being stolen from didn't take all imaginable necessary precautions to thwart every type of theft known to man, no matter how technologically knowledgable or scientifically knowledgable it would require them to be, then they are just getting their just desserts, right?  The victim is the one to blame.
My focus isn't on taking a measure to prevent it. It's on ownership. Ownership is absolute control. If you give control of your connection to a box that doesn't know any better, whatever that box does within the control you delegated to it is your fault. Taking control of that little box away from you would violate your ownership. Letting you keep control of that box and asking the box to do things for you (which you can tell it "yes do this, don't do that", and provided the programming wasn't altered by the hacker, which I don't do) does not violate your ownership of that wifi router.
So, this automatically validates anyone's claim having the right to steal from people who don't know all the in's and out's of the property they own?

Quote
"Hah!  You didn't know that you should have put plastic insulation and a Faraday cage over your electric box and wires?  Lol!  You retard!  Gosh!  I'm glad people were stealing your power!"
I was just pointing out that some defense did exist against that. It should also be noted the vast differences here. You're talking about the resource of power, I'm just talking about communication, an extension of freedom of speech.
How the hell does any of this have anything to do with "freedom of speech"?  Lol.  Maybe I missed something!  And yes, there, I was talking about the resource of power, but in the case of stealing bandwidth, I'm talking about the resource of bandwidth.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 04:42:53 AM by Earthwormzim »
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2006, 04:46:55 AM »

If I own a wifi router, why can't I simply say, "No one has permission to use this, but me," even if I don't take the necessary steps to prevent others from going against my will, and doing so anyways?  It is my property, and even if I don't set a password, or what-have-you, I still have not given you expressed consent to use my property.  Are you really that disrespectful that you'd just ignore what I said, and steal my bandwidth anyways, with that "by proxy" excuse? 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 04:48:57 AM by Earthwormzim »
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OUND

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2006, 05:18:39 AM »

If I own a wifi router, why can't I simply say, "No one has permission to use this, but me," even if I don't take the necessary steps to prevent others from going against my will, and doing so anyways?  It is my property, and even if I don't set a password, or what-have-you, I still have not given you expressed consent to use my property.  Are you really that disrespectful that you'd just ignore what I said, and steal my bandwidth anyways, with that "by proxy" excuse? 
How would he know you're not expressing consent without taking said neccessary steps? If your signal is truly your own private property, why aren't you being responsible for where it goes and who receives it?
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2006, 05:20:31 AM »

"By proxy"?  That's a load of BS.  Most people wouldn't even be aware that this sort of thing could happen.   And I'm sure none of them would agree that simply because they did not know better, that it automatically "by proxy" gives you permission to come in and steel their bandwidth.
Oh, yay, here's that "most people wouldn't agree" arguement AGAIN. Second time in two days. I swear, if democracy created reality we'd be living in fucking heaven on earth. It doesn't. That arguement demonstrates nothing that rebuts or refutes what I said.
No democracy here.
There is the implication that what the majority of people think is right is what's right. If not democracy itself, it's an idea very similar to democracy.

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If you let anybody in, anyone can get in. If you let someone in that has the correct username and password, anyone with the UN/PW combo can get in.

If you don't encrypt your wifi, anyone can get in. If you let someone in that has the correct WEP key, anyone with the WEP key can get in.
Just because I don't lock my door, it does not mean you're welcome in my house.
Stealing wifi is not tresspassing on another's property. They brought their property to you, you're talking about taking me to your property. Very different situation. Stop using this analogy.

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Stealing wifi isn't hacking. The router, as part of it's normal, user-expected function, authorizes access. Now, if someone changes the settings on the router or buffer-overflow attacks your computer or whatever, that's different. That's the hacker taking control of the device away from you. This doesn't happen with stealing wifi. You retain total control over that router.
Rebutted.
Where?

Quote
Quote
Hell...let's make all theft legal...if the person being stolen from didn't take all imaginable necessary precautions to thwart every type of theft known to man, no matter how technologically knowledgable or scientifically knowledgable it would require them to be, then they are just getting their just desserts, right?  The victim is the one to blame.
My focus isn't on taking a measure to prevent it. It's on ownership. Ownership is absolute control. If you give control of your connection to a box that doesn't know any better, whatever that box does within the control you delegated to it is your fault. Taking control of that little box away from you would violate your ownership. Letting you keep control of that box and asking the box to do things for you (which you can tell it "yes do this, don't do that", and provided the programming wasn't altered by the hacker, which I don't do) does not violate your ownership of that wifi router.
So, this automatically validates anyone's claim having the right to steal from people who don't know all the in's and out's of the property they own?

Stealing wifi isn't really stealing. It's just the word that's used to refer to the action. No actual theft is involved. Your claim assumes that theft is involved.

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How the hell does any of this have anything to do with "freedom of speech"?  Lol.  Maybe I missed something!  And yes, there, I was talking about the resource of power, but in the case of stealing bandwidth, I'm talking about the resource of bandwidth.
Freedom of speech = I can broadcast whatever I want, be it via speech, wifi, radio, TV, writing a book, whatever. Because I have freedom of speech on my Wifi adapter, I can broadcast whatever I want from that wifi adapter. If it evokes a response from your hardware that I'm looking for, that's your fault for setting up the hardware to do that and not telling it not to do so. I'm not tresspassing or anything. I'm just talking somewhere on the 2.4 GHz EM range through a computer, and listening for responses. Everything else happens completely on your end, where you retain complete control. And if I'm tapping into your wifi, I'm really just talking. I have the right to do so.

If I own a wifi router, why can't I simply say, "No one has permission to use this, but me," even if I don't take the necessary steps to prevent others from going against my will, and doing so anyways?
Nobody is "using" your router. In a strict sense, I'm just sitting here reading and spewing out radio signals. Your router is choosing to pick up on my signals (a decision made, through ignorance or intention, by you) and send back some information I'm looking for. Why don't you get a dog, let the dog run around the neighborhood, and then throw a fucking hissy fit when the neighbor pets your dog? You want it all to yourself, keep it on your property and don't let it off. That applies to dogs and wifi signals.

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It is my property,
The router. Not the signals it emits. They become mine when they fly through my property.

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and even if I don't set a password, or what-have-you, I still have not given you expressed consent to use my property.
No, but you're giving all these wifi signals. Which is the thing I'm really interested in that you keep giving me.

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Are you really that disrespectful that you'd just ignore what I said, and steal my bandwidth anyways, with that "by proxy" excuse?
Look. Here's how I see things.

Me ---> My computer ---> Wifi anteanna ||||||||| property line |||||||||| Wifi antenna ---> Wifi router ---> Your internet connection.


What is on the left side of the property line is mine. What is on the right side of the property line is yours.

What is yours stays yours and under your complete control the entire time, unless you make it mine.
Your wifi antenna (extension of you) keeps giving my wifi antenna (extension of me) signals.
That's transfer of ownership from you to me via transfer of location via propogation of a wave through space.

I assume that if you pollute my property with radio waves, you do not mind if I pollute your property with radio waves.

I transfer ownership of my waves to you via tansfer of location via propogation of a wave through space.
My wifi antenna (extension of me) keeps giving your wifi antenna (extension of you) signals.

What I do with the signals on my property is strictly my business and strictly under my control at all times.
What you do with the signals on your property is strictly your business and strictly under you control at all times.

No violation of property rights is occuring. I am not forcefully or fraudulently depriving of you of life, liberty, nor property when I do this.

It is a coincidence which works greatly to my favor when your wifi antenna recieves the waves on your property which originate with my antenna, and uses it's available connections to find the server with the data I want, and use it's antenna to convert that data into waves which it sends to me. The internet side is entirely YOUR problem, existing entirely on YOUR end, involving exclusively YOUR property.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 06:13:19 AM by Keti »
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Johnny_

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2006, 10:46:56 AM »

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The router establishes a connection on it's own in many cases. My computer that I'm posting from automatically connects to any wifi signals it finds. My computer isn't interfering with the operation of the router, it's doing exactly what the router expects.

It's not my problem if your computer automatically connects to my router.  Just because my router doesn't refuse connections doesn't mean a damn thing.  So a door without a lock is legal to enter now?  And yes, you very much ARE interfering with the operation of the router.  It's purpose is to deliver me the service I paid for.  You, by leeching bandwidth, are denying it from doing a little bit of the service I paid for. 

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Authorized by the computer, or by the user? If I allow people to freely leech off my wifi, it's not a crime if they have no explicit permission from me, so I leave it open, is that unauthorized access if I don't know who's taking my wifi or whatever?

Authorized by the owner of the machine.  Otherwise, people who sniff passwords would never get in legal trouble.  It's certainly not a crime to allow anyone you want to connect to your router, just like it's not a crime to allow anyone you want from entering your home.  It's your property.

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But this is stupid. Wifi does work that way. It is two way, but it's two single broadcasts. I have the right to monitor, or not monitor, signals on my property at will. The same applies to someone somewhere else at the other end. They have the right to monitor, or not monitor, my responses to their signals. They choose to monitor the signals.

Let me guess: In your world, there's no such crime as cyber crime.  You're just sending electric signals down a copper wire that you own.  If something on the other end chooses to monitor those signals, that's their problem.  And if those signals allow me to view SSNs or bank info, well, that's not a crime because I just sent electric pulses down a wire and monitored the responses.  Once again, you're using the "It's ok for me to intentionally steal their service because they don't lock it up" line, which is the same as saying that it's ok to break into a house because it has no locks.  The fact is, this hypothetical person did NOT pay for the service they are taking and the owner of the service did NOT give permission for them to do it.  How much more black and white can this get?  Yeah, it's stupid not to encrypt it, but not encrypting it doesn't give permission for other people to *intentionally* access their router and use the service that the router owner paid for.

And in general, your free speech argument fails.  You're not talking.  You're using an electronic tool in order to access a machine that you don't own.  And in your world, using your idea of free speech protection, there's NO computer crime, ever.  Even if I completely take over your machine, steal your data, do whatever, it's free speech right?  I just sent electric signals down a wire I own, and that's my free speech.  Anything that happens after that doesn't matter, right?  If a certain sequence of electric pulses gives me access to your bank info and I transfer your money, hey, free speech!

/edit
I want to point out that I've been using the word "intentionally" for most of my replies here for a reason:  I don't think it should be illegal to use the exact same frequency as your neighbors wifi.  They don't own the radio waves.  I think anyone should be able to broadcast anything on any channel.  HOWEVER, there is a distinction between using the same channel to do your own stuff or to broadcast garbage data, and using that channel to intentionally interfere with someone else's property, and I think that's an important distinction.  No one owns the radio waves, but someone DOES own the router that you're accessing. FWIW, all this talk is hypothetical for me, as I have no sympathy for anyone who buys a wireless router and doesn't configure it per the instructions it came with.  If anything the legal aspect should only be a civil court matter, not a criminal one.  I've leeched, most of you all have leeched, people leech off me, it happens and isn't even a minor problem.  The tools to stop it are so cheap and easy to use, anyone who tries to do something in court about it should feel shame for not spending one months internet bill on a router with encryption capabilities.

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What is yours stays yours and under your complete control the entire time, unless you make it mine.

Your arguments are all the same: I can access your property electronically because you didn't lock it.  That's completely poppycock. 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 11:14:18 AM by Johnny_ »
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