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Poll

Is "stealing" wifi bad?

Yes
- 14 (20.3%)
Maybe
- 4 (5.8%)
No
- 20 (29%)
Unsure
- 4 (5.8%)
Depends
- 27 (39.1%)

Total Members Voted: 29


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Author Topic: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth  (Read 39259 times)

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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2006, 12:44:16 AM »

... unless you ask him.  Until then, the fact of the matter is:  you may be stealing his/her bandwidth.  Is that good enough for you?

It is but it obviously is not enough for you. I DO NOT DIS-AGREE WITH THIS FUCKING POINT GET IT THROUGH YOU THICK FUCKING SKULL. THE FACT THAT WE DO NOT KNOW THE OWNERS INTENTIONS TELLS U S THE WE DO NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT IT IS STEALING SO THE FUCKING ANSWER IS STILL IT GODDAMN DEPENDS!!!!

Just how fucking stupid are you anyway. Do you just enjoy being a dick? OR are you just really, really stupid?

Down boy!  Whoa!  No need to get all pissy about these things.
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Brian Wolf

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #181 on: December 23, 2006, 12:48:01 AM »

... unless you ask him.  Until then, the fact of the matter is:  you may be stealing his/her bandwidth.  Is that good enough for you?

It is but it obviously is not enough for you. I DO NOT DIS-AGREE WITH THIS FUCKING POINT GET IT THROUGH YOU THICK FUCKING SKULL. THE FACT THAT WE DO NOT KNOW THE OWNERS INTENTIONS TELLS U S THE WE DO NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT IT IS STEALING SO THE FUCKING ANSWER IS STILL IT GODDAMN DEPENDS!!!!

Just how fucking stupid are you anyway. Do you just enjoy being a dick? OR are you just really, really stupid?

Down boy!  Whoa!  No need to get all pissy about these things.

And there is no need for us to continue this conversation. Pat yourself on the back and tell yourself that your generous use of ad hominem attacks and skillful twisting of peoples words/meanings have convinced us all of your moral superiority.
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #182 on: December 23, 2006, 12:48:36 AM »

Actually, it is quite obvious that Brian Wolf understands my view.  He just chooses to bet on an issue that I, personally, would feel right to bet on.

But Keti is just in straight up denial.
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #183 on: December 23, 2006, 12:55:40 AM »

Can anyone here own the property of ELECTROMAGNETISM? If yes, please explain how the property of EM can be owned by one person when it is INHERENT TO ALL ENTITIES.

the EM SIGNAL from the router is not owned by the router's owner or by the people surrounding the router's owner. It is a signal that happens to exist and because it exists due to the nature of EM, it is unowned categorically. Just as light cannot be owned by anyone. Or air. Or the mass of a higg's boson. It is an unowned property.

-- Bridget
We're not just talking about a force. I say if something is scarce, it can be owned and allocated. Electromagnetic radiation isn't scarce. Electromagnetic radiation that conforms to standards that put it to use, like wifi, that's scarce. That can be owned.

You can own air if you pressurize a tank with air, can't you? For SCUBA diving for instance. If you take it where it's scarce, hell, someone steals air out of your SCUBA tank, shoot 'em for all I care, they're stealing. Under the right conditions, you CAN own air. The same applies to wifi signals.

Keti, not even the government owns the air or the radio waves. They exist where they do per their nature. And that nature excludes ownership.

-- Bridget
Duh, government doesn't legitemately own anything. There is no scarcity of air under normal circumstances. There is no scarcity of radio waves under normal circumstances.

If you put a stinky, old generator on the edge of your land and it's pumping putrid exhaust all over my land, do I have no recourse against you just because air isn't scarce under normal circumstances? I should have some way of getting restitution, shouldn't I? If I can, then I own the air on my land. If I can't, then why shouldn't I fill the air on your land with smoke or poison gas, for instance?
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #184 on: December 23, 2006, 12:56:53 AM »

All rights are property rights. Property rights are the rights to absolute, irresponsible control. Also called "ownership".

If I am using your bandwidth, there is nothing wrong as long as you retain control of that bandwidth. While you might no longer be able to use it, you still have control over that bandwidth. You had your router handle that control for you. As long as you are in control of your router, you are in control of your network. If I'm tapping your wifi network, you maintain absolute irresponsible control of your network and your bandwidth at all times. I am not depriving you of control of it, you maintain control of it.

Use and ownership are not the same thing. I can use something which is not mine as long as you retain ownership of it. I can look at a statue and admire it without owning it. Passivity or activity is irrelevant to the discussion, all I care about is ownership.

If theft is the involuntary deprival of control of property, and you have control over your network when I connect to it (you can after all, kick me out, throttle my bandwidth, et cetera), then you are not deprived of control over your network by my actions, and if no deprival of control of property takes place, there can be no theft.

What part of this do you disagree with?

Now will someone address this or do you just want to ignore it?
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #185 on: December 23, 2006, 01:07:32 AM »

All rights are property rights. Property rights are the rights to absolute, irresponsible control. Also called "ownership".

If I am using your bandwidth, there is nothing wrong as long as you retain control of that bandwidth. While you might no longer be able to use it, you still have control over that bandwidth. You had your router handle that control for you. As long as you are in control of your router, you are in control of your network. If I'm tapping your wifi network, you maintain absolute irresponsible control of your network and your bandwidth at all times. I am not depriving you of control of it, you maintain control of it.

Use and ownership are not the same thing. I can use something which is not mine as long as you retain ownership of it. I can look at a statue and admire it without owning it. Passivity or activity is irrelevant to the discussion, all I care about is ownership.

If theft is the involuntary deprival of control of property, and you have control over your network when I connect to it (you can after all, kick me out, throttle my bandwidth, et cetera), then you are not deprived of control over your network by my actions, and if no deprival of control of property takes place, there can be no theft.

What part of this do you disagree with?

Now will someone address this or do you just want to ignore it?

/edit: Good points.  But you have to take it a step further...//edit
Yes, everyone has absolute control over his/her router...but not everyone knows how to control it absolutely.  Since you know...why don't you show them, before you assume you can have the bandwidth they are rightfully paying for?

Do you deny the fact that they own the bandwidth...being that they are the ones paying for it? /edit: If they are paying for it, then they deserve complete, unabridged access to it...all of it!..don't they?   If you, one time, degrade the quality of any audio/video/data stream that they may have going...is that OK, if you don't know whether or not they intended for you to be able to do so?//edit

Edit:

"Oh, but that's not my responsibility...but neither is finding out if it is OK to use their bandwidth (hehehehe!  Free bandwidth, here I come!!!!!)."
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 01:25:48 AM by Earthwormzim »
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Earthwormzim

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #186 on: December 23, 2006, 01:14:10 AM »

... unless you ask him.  Until then, the fact of the matter is:  you may be stealing his/her bandwidth.  Is that good enough for you?

It is but it obviously is not enough for you. I DO NOT DIS-AGREE WITH THIS FUCKING POINT GET IT THROUGH YOU THICK FUCKING SKULL. THE FACT THAT WE DO NOT KNOW THE OWNERS INTENTIONS TELLS U S THE WE DO NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT IT IS STEALING SO THE FUCKING ANSWER IS STILL IT GODDAMN DEPENDS!!!!

Just how fucking stupid are you anyway. Do you just enjoy being a dick? OR are you just really, really stupid?

Down boy!  Whoa!  No need to get all pissy about these things.

And there is no need for us to continue this conversation. Pat yourself on the back and tell yourself that your generous use of ad hominem attacks and skillful twisting of peoples words/meanings have convinced us all of your moral superiority.


My calling you guys, "Grab-asses" may be classified as "ad hominem," and if that is all that I offered for the argument, then certainly my argument would be flawed.  But, I also provided rock-hard argumentative points.  My "ad-hominem" attacks do not cancel those points out. 

But, do youself a favor...define a "grab-ass"...isn't it, "one who expects stuff for free" or "one who expects to get stuff without paying for it".  I believe I was just calling a spade, a "spade".


Edit:  "skillful"...awe, you're making me blush.  But still, flattery will get you nowhere.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 01:17:13 AM by Earthwormzim »
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EternityAblaze

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #187 on: December 23, 2006, 01:16:48 AM »

I still think everyone is confusing the right of using airwaves with the right of property.  Airwaves are up for grab, yes, but bandwidth is not.  You can't use one to justify the right of stealing the other.

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ladyattis

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #188 on: December 23, 2006, 01:42:11 AM »

We're not just talking about a force. I say if something is scarce, it can be owned and allocated. Electromagnetic radiation isn't scarce. Electromagnetic radiation that conforms to standards that put it to use, like wifi, that's scarce. That can be owned.
Yes and no. Wifi is owned because wifi is a hardware component. The EM signal is not the hardware component, therefore cannot be owned.

Quote
You can own air if you pressurize a tank with air, can't you? For SCUBA diving for instance. If you take it where it's scarce, hell, someone steals air out of your SCUBA tank, shoot 'em for all I care, they're stealing. Under the right conditions, you CAN own air. The same applies to wifi signals.
You own the tank, but not the air.

Quote
Duh, government doesn't legitemately own anything. There is no scarcity of air under normal circumstances. There is no scarcity of radio waves under normal circumstances.
Under ALL circumstances, unless you're a dark matter particle.

Quote
If you put a stinky, old generator on the edge of your land and it's pumping putrid exhaust all over my land, do I have no recourse against you just because air isn't scarce under normal circumstances?
No it's a matter that the person is harming you by pollution. Not because you owned the air. Or do I need to spell it out for you?

Until you can prove that you can own the property of an entity, you can basically take your argument and stuff up your ass because it is not valid nor sound on grounds that the property[quality] of an entity is in itself invariant in all times and all spaces per Nature. Got it?

-- Bridget
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #189 on: December 23, 2006, 01:57:55 AM »

Yes and no. Wifi is owned because wifi is a hardware component. The EM signal is not the hardware component, therefore cannot be owned.
So anything that isn't a hardware component cannot be owned?

Quote
Quote
You can own air if you pressurize a tank with air, can't you? For SCUBA diving for instance. If you take it where it's scarce, hell, someone steals air out of your SCUBA tank, shoot 'em for all I care, they're stealing. Under the right conditions, you CAN own air. The same applies to wifi signals.
You own the tank, but not the air.
So if I fill a tank with air and go underwater, and you somehow start taking air out of my tank, there is no injustice there?

Quote
No it's a matter that the person is harming you by pollution. Not because you owned the air. Or do I need to spell it out for you?
And how is it harming me?

Quote
Until you can prove that you can own the property of an entity, you can basically take your argument and stuff up your ass because it is not valid nor sound on grounds that the property[quality] of an entity is in itself invariant in all times and all spaces per Nature. Got it?
And how do you prove that you can own something?
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #190 on: December 23, 2006, 01:58:46 AM »

I still think everyone is confusing the right of using airwaves with the right of property.  Airwaves are up for grab, yes, but bandwidth is not.  You can't use one to justify the right of stealing the other.


You didn't even read my retort. GTFO my thread or learn how to read.
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ladyattis

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #191 on: December 23, 2006, 02:02:40 AM »

Yes and no. Wifi is owned because wifi is a hardware component. The EM signal is not the hardware component, therefore cannot be owned.
So anything that isn't a hardware component cannot be owned?
If it is an invariant property of a pre-existent entity. Yes.

Quote
So if I fill a tank with air and go underwater, and you somehow start taking air out of my tank, there is no injustice there?
Faulty implicit concept there you're hanging onto. It's wrong that they're taking out the air from the tank because it will kill you, but not because you own it. Please learn definitional argumentation, otherwise I'll skull fuck you, k?

Quote
And how is it harming me?
It's poison, jackass.

Quote
And how do you prove that you can own something?
Causality.


-- Bridget
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #192 on: December 23, 2006, 02:07:55 AM »

Yes, everyone has absolute control over his/her router...but not everyone knows how to control it absolutely.  Since you know...why don't you show them, before you assume you can have the bandwidth they are rightfully paying for?
I don't have to.

Quote
Do you deny the fact that they own the bandwidth...being that they are the ones paying for it?
They own the bandwidth.

Quote
If you, one time, degrade the quality of any audio/video/data stream that they may have going...is that OK, if you don't know whether or not they intended for you to be able to do so?
Yes, that's okay, because they still have total control over the network.
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Zhwazi

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #193 on: December 23, 2006, 02:20:19 AM »

Faulty implicit concept there you're hanging onto. It's wrong that they're taking out the air from the tank because it will kill you, but not because you own it. Please learn definitional argumentation, otherwise I'll skull fuck you, k?
Can you own neon? Do you just own the tank the neon is contained in, or do you own the gas in the tank? How about oxygen? Nitrogen? Why, when it's a mixture of 70% nitrogen, 30% oxygen, and some trace gases, can you not own that? What if it's 50% oxygen and 50% nitrogen? 90% nitrogen and 10% oxygen? How close does it have to be to "air" in order to be unownable?

Quote
It's poison, jackass.
Not what I meant. If it's depreciating my property, but I don't actually live there, and nobody wants to actually buy my property because you're pumping exhaust into it, it's harming me monetarily, isn't it? It's not poisoning me if I live across the country and just own that patch of land.

Quote
Quote
And how do you prove that you can own something?
Causality.
Please demonstrate.
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ladyattis

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Re: I'm in your wifi stealing your bandwidth
« Reply #194 on: December 23, 2006, 02:56:15 AM »

How close does it have to be to "air" in order to be unownable?
It's un-ownable since it is inherent to the condition of being on Earth. The air itself is not what is owned when you own a scuba tank, it is the tank. And any tampering with the tank is a violation of your ownership of the tank, but not the air. You seem to not get the idea very clearly do you? Nor can you own the components of air either. *yawns* So stop trying to refute me when you can't even do it half-way decently.

Quote
Not what I meant. If it's depreciating my property, but I don't actually live there, and nobody wants to actually buy my property because you're pumping exhaust into it, it's harming me monetarily, isn't it? It's not poisoning me if I live across the country and just own that patch of land.
Yes, and if you can prove it then you have a case, but not because you own the air, but because you own the land. *yawns*

Quote
Please demonstrate.

X has Y first, thus outright. If Z comes by to deprive by force or fraud X's Y then Z has committed theft because X owns Y by prior control since 9/10s of ownership is possession. Got it?

-- Bridget
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