The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: ladyattis on March 06, 2007, 03:35:20 PM
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I saw a youtube clip about Australia wanting to extend its sex offender registry to past cases and perpetrators and I have to wonder if any one realizes there is a fine line between justice and revenge, and to whether we have yet to cross it...
Your thoughts?
-- Bridget
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iT WAS CROSSED A LONG TIME AGO.
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Tough question, so I'll just confuse the issue further.
Heres what I DON'T agree with: When the bastards get caught red-handed and they do six months for being a rapist of ANYONE, minor or adult, that's just fucking bullshit.
Solid case? Do some time. Then, walk, I guess. Once you've served your time, just like any other (violent) crime against any other people. Maybe some probation. I don't see any other "violent" offenders out there regestering their whereabouts for the remainder of their lives.
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Well, there is the argument that murderers should be killed, rapists should be castrated, and other criminals should give restitution. I think that's a tad bit extreme.
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Pedophiles and rapists are two different things.
A rapist is someone who has used violent force, usually.
But a pedophile could just be a 19y/o who has sex with a 17y/o.
I think that every criminal case should be decided on it's own.
I hate these blanket laws like mandatory minimums. One size does not fit all.
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Put simply,
Pedophilia is thoughts, not actions.
A child molester is a rapist.
Anything involving the gray area between onset of puberty and AOC should be judged individually to determine informed consent.
Therefore, your question is all about rapists, and has nothing to do with pedophilia, a thoughtcrime.
Restitution, determined between the offender and victim and mediated appropriately, consisting of money, incarceration, charitable work, etc., or a combination of them, should be decided upon to provide reasonable recompense to the victim (for example, incarceration if it incites a phobia or a trust fund to provide for later counselling) as well as give some assurance that the offender will no longer be dangerous (by way of counselling and/or charity), but be primarily directed towards restoring the victim to their physical, mental, and financial state prior to the offense.
Damn, didn't realize I turned one idea into one sentence and was able to do it with accurate grammar!
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I really want to see some numbers on all these supposed pedophiles and sex offenders swarming our school grounds. I mean is the problem really THAT bad?
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I saw a youtube clip about Australia wanting to extend its sex offender registry to past cases and perpetrators and I have to wonder if any one realizes there is a fine line between justice and revenge, and to whether we have yet to cross it...
Your thoughts?
-- Bridget
But revenge IS part of justice. A proper system of justice ensures that the revenge is extracted on the right party.
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But revenge IS part of justice. A proper system of justice ensures that the revenge is extracted on the right party.
How did you come to that conclusion?
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There's an important distinction here that you all are not making. A pedophile is not a child molester. Pedophile just means you have the attraction to children. Some people are smart enough to control themselves, some aren't. Those who aren't are child molesters.
And Puke, I'm not sure what it is, but there's a different term for adults who are attracted to teenagers. So no, a 19 year old having sex with a 17 year old is not a pedophile. It's not even stat rape in most places. No one's going to jail for that.
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Understand when I say pedophile, I mean practicing pedophile. Not some stupid 40 something that faps off to lolicon pictures.
-- Bridget
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There's an important distinction here that you all are not making. A pedophile is not a child molester. Pedophile just means you have the attraction to children. Some people are smart enough to control themselves, some aren't. Those who aren't are child molesters.
I already said that....see above....
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There's an important distinction here that you all are not making. A pedophile is not a child molester. Pedophile just means you have the attraction to children. Some people are smart enough to control themselves, some aren't. Those who aren't are child molesters.
I already said that....see above....
Sorry, I'm a skimmer.
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PUT EM ON THE MOON!!
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PUT EM ON THE MOON!!
I suppose this would be the time for someone to make the obligatory joke about Uranus.
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But revenge IS part of justice. A proper system of justice ensures that the revenge is extracted on the right party.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Revenge is a very strong motivating force. Studies have shown that people will forgo rewards in order to extract revenge for wrongs done to them. Nature has instilled the emotion of revenge as a social stabilizer: Kill me, and my family and friends will try to seek you out and destroy you.
Such vengeance sometimes results in the wrong person being punished. As a result, governments undertake the responsibility for meriting out retaliation in place of individuals doing it themselves. "Leave the revenge to us," the state says. "That way, we will ensure the wrong party does not get punished."
When the state fails in this, revenge falls back into the hands of the individual.
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It doesn't seem like you have shown how revenge is part of justice. Could you clarify?
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But revenge IS part of justice. A proper system of justice ensures that the revenge is extracted on the right party.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Revenge is a very strong motivating force. Studies have shown that people will forgo rewards in order to extract revenge for wrongs done to them. Nature has instilled the emotion of revenge as a social stabilizer: Kill me, and my family and friends will try to seek you out and destroy you.
Such vengeance sometimes results in the wrong person being punished. As a result, governments undertake the responsibility for meriting out retaliation in place of individuals doing it themselves. "Leave the revenge to us," the state says. "That way, we will ensure the wrong party does not get punished."
When the state fails in this, revenge falls back into the hands of the individual.
I can understand why it's an element of the current system, but your own admission that it can be misapplied (sometimes irreversibly) renders the system inherently unjust. It would be so much easier if it weren't so, but to have a truly civil society, vengeance must be replaced with restitution. As I said previously, restitution may also include imprisonment, but for restitution purposes, rather than vengeance.
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Victims, and the families of victims, have a strong emotional need for vengeance. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do, nonetheless. If government does carry out justice, then people will take it in their own hands. "Justice" is when vengeance is handled in a impartial and fair manner--that is, when all possible efforts are made to ensure the person punished is indeed guilty, and to make sure the punishment is not out of proportion to the crime.
I've never really accepted Ian's idea that mere ostracism is sufficient to deal with those who commit heinous crimes. O. J. Simpson, a known murderer, got off scot free. He's subject to ostracism, but somehow, I don't think it's crimped his life all that much. He's never going to miss a meal, and manages to get his 18-holes in whenever he wants to.
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Ok, you're defining vengeance differently. We're more or less in agreement on all but the details. No more criticism from me.
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I saw a youtube clip about Australia wanting to extend its sex offender registry to past cases and perpetrators and I have to wonder if any one realizes there is a fine line between justice and revenge, and to whether we have yet to cross it...
Your thoughts?
-- Bridget
Wouldn't that violate some kind of double jeopardy or ex post facto clause?
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And Puke, I'm not sure what it is, but there's a different term for adults who are attracted to teenagers. So no, a 19 year old having sex with a 17 year old is not a pedophile.
Ephebophilia is the term for adults with a sexual preference for post-pubescent adolescents.
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I saw a youtube clip about Australia wanting to extend its sex offender registry to past cases and perpetrators and I have to wonder if any one realizes there is a fine line between justice and revenge, and to whether we have yet to cross it...
Your thoughts?
-- Bridget
Wouldn't that violate some kind of double jeopardy or ex post facto clause?
Dude, this is Aussieland we're talking about, not the USA, their political framework is fundamentally different from ours since their ties to the Queen and the Parliement. Essentially, Parliementary governments have absolute control over the lives of people subjected to them. A classic tyranny of the majority situation.
-- Bridget
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I think they should be raped with a saw.
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Pedophilia w/o rape shouldn't be a crime.
If the "child" doesn't want to persecute, it's not a rape. Parents can persecute on the child's behalf, but only up to a certain reasonable age, say 13. If the persecuting party signed a contract saying they won't persecute a given person for an event on a given date, then they can't persecute.
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PUT EM ON THE MOON!!
We're whalers on the moon...
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Pedophilia w/o rape shouldn't be a crime.
If the "child" doesn't want to persecute, it's not a rape. Parents can persecute on the child's behalf, but only up to a certain reasonable age, say 13. If the persecuting party signed a contract saying they won't persecute a given person for an event on a given date, then they can't persecute.
Persecution and prosecution are two different things.
And also, you are clearly a pedophile if you believe this.
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I saw a youtube clip about Australia wanting to extend its sex offender registry to past cases and perpetrators and I have to wonder if any one realizes there is a fine line between justice and revenge, and to whether we have yet to cross it...
Your thoughts?
-- Bridget
Wouldn't that violate some kind of double jeopardy or ex post facto clause?
Dude, this is Aussieland we're talking about, not the USA, their political framework is fundamentally different from ours since their ties to the Queen and the Parliement. Essentially, Parliementary governments have absolute control over the lives of people subjected to them. A classic tyranny of the majority situation.
-- Bridget
I know it is australia, but there is a prohibition against passing ex post facto laws in almost all countries. It is also a common law nation and I am pretty sure that they have some other kinds of proceedural protections similar to the ones we have.
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From what I know, Aussieland has no such provisions.
-- Bridget
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With a shotgun
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And also, you are clearly a pedophile if you believe this.
Meh.