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[Johnson]

Libertarians will win votes NOT by trying to win elections

With most people, I would state the following more diplomatically, but just for you, Johnson:

               You're talking out of your ass


You clearly have never met Dick Marple, James Wheeler, or John Gallus.
The former two are State Representatives; the last is a State Senator.
They're all for legalizing pot, getting the government out of the education business, getting out of the Real-ID program, and just about any other libartarian platform you can name.
And they are CURRENTLY IN OFFICE.

I'm talking out of my ass... orrrrr... you are making my point for me? I think you are a little confused. You basically just told me that there are a few Libertarians in office who did not sacrifice their principles in order to win an election... sounds pretty much in line with what I've been saying. That maintaining your principles is more important than trying to win an election. This conversation and thread has never been about what issues to focus on in a campaign, this debate is about the real and actual sacrifice of principles, and whether or not THAT is acceptable.
I personally don't think Harry should have focused so much on the marijuana issue when he was running, but I definitely don't think he should have ever sacrificed his principles about it, just shifted focus.
I'm not suddenly going to decide I want to vote a REPUBLICAN who doesn't support pot, instead of a principled Libertarian, just because I don't believe much of America is ready for the pot issue yet. I believe being principled is what will win us elections. RAnthony wants to see the party sacrifice it's principles. I would like to see Libertarian handle campaigns smarter - sure... but you do not sacfice the entire principle of your party (non-aggression) in order to win an election... that's plain stupid. RAnthony, if it would Libertarians win an election, would you nuke Iran tomorrow and kill thousands of innocents? How far are you willing to sacrifice principles before being a Libertarian doesn't even matter anymore?

[Johnson]

Mere speedbumps on the road to global domination.  Think more big picture, like 1948 and the founding of modern Israel. Our backing of same.  The Arab attacks that haven't ceased since.  They've killed several generations of their children in futile suicide attacks attempting to retake the land that Israel claimed for itself, do you really think they'll just forget the 'Great Satan' if we pull up stakes and leave? I doubt it.

Most Americans don't remember farther back than 9-11, and then only because they have it paraded in their faces every year.  For them 9-11 was the first attack, and Boortz et al capitalize on that perception quite nicely.

Regardless of what most Americans remember, the point I was making is that the victims remember very well that we were the first ones to be the aggressors. We support isreal, we have been bombing their lands. We betrayed Iraq after giving them the go ahead to invade Kuwait.
Our aggression has brought us retaliation and vangeance. We have been supporting Israel.

Will they forget? We can only hope. No, it's not likely, but it's even less likely while we CONTINUE to aggress upon them. So, what... We kill them all? You are right, they are not likely to forget the great satan.... The best we can do is to start the process of that forgetting asap, and stop creating new GENERATIONS of future terrorists that HATE America from the earliest days of their childhood. We need to leave them alone to their OWN affairs. We were never attacked by Iraq, and there was NO link between Iraq and Al-Queada.. or are you forgetting that MOST Americans are fucking gullible idiots that were sold the Bush adminstration BULLSHIT on that one.

The cycle of aggression must stop. It is a key principle of the LIBERTARIAN party... That has very little to do with anarchy vs. limited government. It has FAR more to do with a party's political stance on how military and foreign affairs should be handled. I'm with Harry Browne, and Mary Ruwart, and Michael Badnarik and pretty much every other real Libertarian who has been worthy of the name.

[Karrde188]

It's Al Qeida, not Al-Queada. 

& Vengeance, not vangeance.

It would be nice if the BBS had a spell check feature.    

Anyway, that point aside, you're absolutely right. 

[sillyperson]

Man, this thread was so good when it was on topic.  I'm almost motivated to moderate and split off these posts.

It's that fine line between one little piece of authoritarianism and marching people off to the gas chambers

:j/k:

[sillyperson]

You basically just told me that there are a few Libertarians in office who did not sacrifice their principles in order to win an election

To the contratry.
Those are the top 3 most free-market politicians in NH (and that is really saying something, BTW)
All three are notionally Republicans -- though for two of them, they will happily tell you that they pretty much share *no* values with the Republicans in D.C.
That said, none of them have a perfect score card -- they all voted "wrong" on at least 1 case last session. I am sure that sometimes that was so they could go back to their constituents and say , "yes, I fought to <whatever>", beause if they couldn't say that, they couldn't come back next session.

Pressure needs to be applied on *all* fronts.
You'll see more principled politicians when you see the public more educated about the Free Market -- which means, when there is more media like FTL (and Gardner's Against The Grain) bringing that message to the people, and more papers like the Keene Free Press.
Which is one reason we have not one but TWO "media panel" sessions at the Liberty Forum, and why I am a platinum AMPlifier.

More Porcs in NH doing more Media are CRITICAL to success. But until there are 4-5 more shows like FTL and 6-10 more papers like the KFP, even the most principled politicians need to take the occaisonal populist vote if they want to stay at the table the next term. They know it sucks, we know it sucks, but it's better than having an abject Socialist (party Democrat) or Fascist (GWB-style Republican) in that seat.

Don't complain about it -- DO SOMETHING. Like, get your ass up to NH and help us fight.

[AlexLibman]

It would be nice if the BBS had a spell check feature.    

Firefox 2.0 can red-underline misspelled words in text-area boxes, and earlier versions (and some other browsers) can do the same through a plug-in.  Just right-click the input box and select "Spell check this field".  The "off-topic checker" plug-in I'm working on is still a long way off...

[Johnson]

It's Al Qeida, not Al-Queada. 

& Vengeance, not vangeance.

It would be nice if the BBS had a spell check feature.    

Anyway, that point aside, you're absolutely right. 

1. You're wrong. It's Al Qaeda. Typo. I'm used to typing a U after a Q. Although I admit I transposed the a and e unknowingly, I don't know if I would have noticed it looking wrong if I hadn't put the u in.

Also, there are multiple spellings of Al Qaeda. The most common use does not have an I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

2. Obviously a typo. If I wanted to really spellcheck, I would have done so... I don't really need that service. If you'd like, I can go through and double check your posts, and point out errors, if you are into that sort of thing. I spell very well if I choose to pay attention to it, I find that's one of those things that is a waste of time considering.

"... randomising letters in the middle of words [has] little or no effect on the ability of skilled readers to understand the text. This is easy to denmtrasote. In a pubiltacion of New Scnieitst you could ramdinose all the letetrs, keipeng the first two and last two the same, and reibadailty would hadrly be aftcfeed. My ansaylis did not come to much beucase the thoery at the time was for shape and senqeuce retigcionon. Saberi's work sugsegts we may have some pofrweul palrlael prsooscers at work. The resaon for this is suerly that idnetiyfing coentnt by paarllel prseocsing speeds up regnicoiton. We only need the first and last two letetrs to spot chganes in meniang."

You can also try writing texts replacing vowels with hyphens, or as I did once, replacing vowels with schwas in a digitized recording of a spoken text. L-ng--g- -s -n -m-z-ngl- c-mpl-x th-ng.

Worrying constantly about typos is just sort of elitist highbrow nonsense.
(0|\|$1D3r 7|-|@ 7|-|3r3 R 4L$0 /\/\4|\|'/ p30PL3 0|\| 7|-|3 1|\|73r|\|37 \/\/|-|0 (|-|00$3 70 74L|< L1|<3 7|-|1$ 4LL 7|-|3 71/\/\3.

Also, SMF does have a spellcheck, and a bevy of other features. We are not using the most current version. (1.08 -> 1.1) Ian is paranoid about it being in Release Candidate 1 status for the past year. SMF has for some reason chosen not to finalize it's release, and so we have not made the switchover. (I wish we would though - but I understand Ian's motivations)

[Pod99966]

I'm almost motivated  

That is the Ian "Quote of the Year"

[Johnson]

Dennis, again you haven't really contradicted anything I've said.

On top of which, you are calling for action on my behalf (which you already know is in progress to boot), when this is ABOUT a discussion of theory, it's not about complaints or action.

It's ABOUT a question.

SHOULD We accept VIOLENT PRO-FORCE people into the Libertarian party? How FAR do we bend our principles?
What LEVEL of deviation from the Libertarian oath is acceptable? Do Libertarians actively elect a politician that wants to invade another country?
What about a Politician that only wants a FEW new taxes? What about a politician that believes that we need to extradite almost 50% of the hispanics in this country, or that the muslim faith is an anathema, and needs to be excised from the country.

Guess what... That's Boortz on almost all of those issues.. and Alex Jones and Larry Elder aren't far behind. I agree with you that a lot of education needs to be had... but if the party isn't ready, then the party isn't ready.. pure and simple. Just becuase you slap a label on someone isn't going to MAKE them TURN more Libertarian... in fact... it will dillute and destroy the Libertarian ideal... and make the ideal of the Libertarian party JUST as meaningless as the smaller government ideal of the Republican party. Why? - because they are just trying to win elections... and now no one knows what it really means to be a republican or a democrat anymore, becuase they are both shilling for the same thing.

[sillyperson]

SHOULD We accept VIOLENT PRO-FORCE people into the Libertarian party?

I dunno and don't care about the Libertarian party.
I might care about the LP in 2-3 years, depending on how charged up it gets.
Given that the former chairman of the NHLA is now (as of ~3 weeks ago)  focusing his attentin on the LPNH, it might even be earlier than 2-3 years

[burnthebeautiful]

The problem with the word libertarian is it's an absolute, where's words like liberal and conservative aren't. You can be very liberal or slightly liberal, and the same with conservative, but with libertarian you're either 100% libertarian on every single issue or you're not allowed to call yourself the word at all.

The Swedish language doesn't have this problem, because in Swedish there's one word for libertarian-leaning and another word for libertarian. Problem solved. In Swedish the word "liberal" is a vague word meaning anyone who on some level is both socially and economically permissive/pro-freedom. Being that liberal is such a vague word, libertarians tend to use the more specific term "nyliberal", the swedish word for libertarian (approx neo-liberal). But lately "nyliberal" has been mis-used a lot by left-wingers too, so libertarians have started to call themselves "libertarian" (but say it in a Swedish dialect to make it sound like a Swedish word).

So yeah, the ideal solution would be to have two different words in English, also. Then the principled people could call themselves one thing and the "unprincipled" people who don't want to go all the way can call themselves something else.

[Lindsey]

I'm surprised no one answered this question with "Your mom!".

[Johnson]

I think it's going to be a bit before a new word emerges, but I agree, that is definately a part of the problem.
I'd even like to called "The Jeffersonian Party" or "The Objectivist Party"

not sure which sounds better

you have

conservative republican
liberal democrat

and

libertarian jeffersonian
or libertarian objectivist

I like the latter I think.

[Peppermint Pig]

I found FTL on podcastalley.com. I was actively searching for a podcast and my search began by opening up a browser, but I suppose that's the best answer I can give. Very interesting poll results.


I'm curious to know how each of those categories of Libertarian would be defined... Are you a minarchist, Johnson?

[Karrde188]

It's Al Qeida, not Al-Queada. 

& Vengeance, not vangeance.

It would be nice if the BBS had a spell check feature.    

Anyway, that point aside, you're absolutely right. 

1. You're wrong. It's Al Qaeda. Typo. I'm used to typing a U after a Q. Although I admit I transposed the a and e unknowingly, I don't know if I would have noticed it looking wrong if I hadn't put the u in.

Also, there are multiple spellings of Al Qaeda. The most common use does not have an I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

2. Obviously a typo. If I wanted to really spellcheck, I would have done so... I don't really need that service. If you'd like, I can go through and double check your posts, and point out errors, if you are into that sort of thing. I spell very well if I choose to pay attention to it, I find that's one of those things that is a waste of time considering.

LOL I'm just Busting your chops Johnson. settle down.

Oh, & some people DO spell it the way I did, just google it yourself & you'll see several links
 
 http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=chstrip9&query=Al%20Qeida 

But hey, whatever. However they spell their group doesn't change the fact that they are still a bunch of testicle licking rectal warts.