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Poll

Is it rational to hold doors open for other people?

No.
- 2 (5.4%)
Yes.
- 28 (75.7%)
Depends on the person you're holding the door for.
- 7 (18.9%)

Total Members Voted: 21


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Author Topic: Holding Doors Open  (Read 14556 times)

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Taors

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2007, 03:36:05 PM »

it makes me feel good when people say "thanks"

Why?

It triggers an emotional response in my brain and makes me happy. I'm guessing because at an early age I was told "holding the door open for other people is a good thing", so it made me feel good and continues to make me feel good everytime I do it.
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gibson042

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2007, 05:46:21 PM »

MD, what are your thoughts on the Prisoner's Dilemma?

That there is a difference between being mean and not helping others.

Then you miss the point of the puzzle.  It is not about being mean, it is about a situation in which the "rational" action (from a player's perspective) is never to cooperate, but the equilibrium (in which no one benefits by changing their strategy) over all encounters is optimal with cooperation.

Quote
or feeling pleased, content, happy when it's sunny out
At least this makes some sense. Feeling happy in this case has a rational cause, the physical pleasure from radiation.

Just imagine the pleasure one could get from a sunlamp!

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I don't understand why one should feel pleasure for helping someone.

Because of evolution.  Cooperation is optimal, so those that practiced it (and were encouraged to do so by pleasure) outcompeted any who did not.

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Why is not caring for others in and of themselves a problem?

I think it give me a competitive advantage over you.

You are mistaken (see above).  Consider this my response to all of your similar comments, whose "shotgun" style makes it awkward to answer them individually.  By the way, thank you for these recent debates, which have helped me clarify my own views on the issue.
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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2007, 06:01:16 PM »

I don't understand why one should feel pleasure for helping someone.
Because of evolution.  Cooperation is optimal, so those that practiced it (and were encouraged to do so by pleasure) outcompeted any who did not.

But now that we can use reason, shouldn't we judge each case on an individual basis?
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I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

Lindsey

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2007, 06:04:02 PM »

Clusterfuck. 
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gibson042

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2007, 06:50:59 PM »

I don't understand why one should feel pleasure for helping someone.
Because of evolution.  Cooperation is optimal, so those that practiced it (and were encouraged to do so by pleasure) outcompeted any who did not.

But now that we can use reason, shouldn't we judge each case on an individual basis?

Yes.  And our reason has shown us, through game theory, that cooperation is optimal.  Not altruistic cooperation, mind you, but cooperation by default, overridden when other parties don't respond in kind.  The exact approach offered by "good manners".
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zebraflood

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2007, 07:05:13 PM »

Shouldn't action that gives you pleasure have a rational reason for giving you pleasure?

Doesn't the fact that an action gives you pleasure, regardless of what it is, make it rational for you to pursue it? Assuming that it won't harm you in some other way. Reason and emotion are two distinct things, but it seems that the purpose of reason is to determine which actions best promote self-interest by creating the most pleasure. Pursuing a pleasurable outcome would only be irrational if some harm was going to come from it that would outweigh the happiness gained. Rational self-interest.

or feeling pleased, content, happy when it's sunny out

At least this makes some sense. Feeling happy in this case has a rational cause, the physical pleasure from radiation.

What causes are irrational? I assume the people who have said they experience some positive reaction from opening doors for people do so because it makes them feel appreciated or helpful or any number of other things. Is feeling appreciated an irrational cause for happiness?

Isn't pleasure the ultimate end in any life, with many different ways of being gained?

Yes, but shouldn't these many ways have a reason for giving you pleasure?

Yes. All actions are just means to an end, though. It's the end that gives pleasure. Probably the ultimate end is pleasure itself, but the secondary end would be something else. Feeling needed, or whatever. The goal isn't to open doors, it's to experience whatever feeling you get when you open the door.

I don't believe he would consider feeling sad when someone you love is in pain/dead/etc. is an irrational use of emotions.  I think he's saying something more along the lines of your happiness because it's a pretty day is irrational.

Actually, it's the opposite. Feeling happy is at least conducive to productivity.

Feeling sad does not make any sense. Things don't get better because you grieve.

I don't think emotions are irrational in themselves.

It depends on which way you are using the term irrational.

It can mean either it doesn't even try to be logical, or it tries and fails.

I thought you were using irrational to mean that it tries and fails to be logical. In writing this I think I've decided that emotions can be irrational (not logical), if they fail to be in the best interest of the person experiencing them. Sadness would an irrational emotion in this sense, but it's not as cut and dry as that. The human mind is complex, and when attachments are formed it's natural to experience a feeling of loss when they're gone. A grieving process when someone close dies is considered so important because to ignore it undermines a natural healing process. For example, the death or loss of a parent in young life appears repeatedly in literature on depression as a trauma sometimes likely to create irreversible emotional turmoil due to incomplete mourning. In such a case, letting yourself feel sad and mourn would be most likely to promote the overall longevity of happiness. So sadness wouldn't always be irrational either. Although it certainly could be.

I ramble and repeat because I went one by one.
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Lindsey

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2007, 07:49:05 PM »

I'm not disagreeing that emotions can be irrational.  I just disagree with some of MD's statements. 
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
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jckeyser

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2007, 09:38:45 PM »

This entire argument is fucking retarded. I'm gonna drink now.
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tc2007

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2007, 09:56:47 PM »

I'll have a jager bomb 8)
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Lindsey

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2007, 09:58:32 PM »

I'm having tea.  If I die, I'll let you know. 
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
         -George W. Bush

tc2007

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2007, 10:06:04 PM »

I'm having tea.  If I die, I'll let you know. 

long isle tea?  :D
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Lindsey

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2007, 10:17:53 PM »

I'm having tea.  If I die, I'll let you know. 

long isle tea?  :D

No, it's peach-flavored black tea. 
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Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
         -George W. Bush

theghostofbj

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Re: Holding Doors Open
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2007, 11:07:01 PM »

Once you go black...
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