The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: Laetitia on March 05, 2007, 09:50:33 AM
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I met several young people at the NHLF who impressed the heck out of me. The group from SUNY stands out in my memory, as does MobileDigit, who drove up from Georgia with his dad to attend the forum.
I'm curious as to where all the independent thinkers here on the FTL boards developed that independence.
Is it the result of encouragement in a private school or homeschool setting?
A backlash of the repressive group think taught in govt. schools?
Parents who challenged you to think for yourself, or at least nurtured your curious nature?
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All government child prisons for me. K thru 12.
I'm pretty certain that my parents shaped the way that I think about government to some extent.
Plus the hell that was Communist Russia government school really turned me off all throughout my childhood.
And then I joined the Army! Oops. I sure fucked up there. But that's over, thankfully.
I've never been much of a conformist. I think I was just born this way.
My brother after all is as conformist as you can get. :?
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12 years of public school, for which I received perhaps an eighth-grade education. I sort of just floated through school, never bothering to apply myself. Then, in senior year of high school, I read Atlas Shrugged and life changed. I started studying on my own, and developed an interest in history, science, and the arts. Most of what I now know came from after high school.
After a couple of years, I started college--the first two years at a public institution, and finished up at a private school. There was a world of difference between the two, with the second being far more challenging and rewarding.
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Kindergarten and first grade at a private Christian school, and then in 2nd grade I got enrolled in a public elementary school. I suffered 10 years in government school and then got myself out.
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Government Indoctrination camps for me... all the way through.
What a waste of my earlier years.
I learned more by myself, than I ever did there.
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K-9 + 3 Months for me. I dropped out of government school on my 16th birthday.
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I dropped out at 16 1/2. I went to private "Christian" discount school for most of 7th grade. Even more boring than public school. At least they had computers where I could look at porn on.
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Straight government schools for me, but I always loved history and was constantly contradicting my history and government teachers. I didn't have any way to put a name to my belief system until I read a novel called Amagi that ended up in the break room of the Barnes and Noble I worked at. My dad also helped me a lot, he made me think for myself and question everything.
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All public schools:
K-2: Hunters Creek Elementary (http://www.springbranchisd.com/schools/allcampus/elem/hce.htm), Houston, Texas
3-4: Armstrong Elementary (http://ar.hpisd.org/), Dallas, Texas
5-6: McCulloch Intermediate School (http://in.hpisd.org/), Dallas, Texas
7-8: Highland Park Middle School (http://ms.hpisd.org/home.html), Dallas, Texas
9-11: Highland Park High School (http://hs.hpisd.org/), Dallas, Texas
My contributions to the school: http://www.google.com/search?q=nigel+watt+site%3Ahpisd.org&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a (http://www.google.com/search?q=nigel+watt+site%3Ahpisd.org&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)
The school's contributions to me: This space intentionally left blank
Now I'm at Cornell, and even though it's a fairly public private school, the difference is amazing.
And yes, you read that right - I never went to 12th grade. I just skipped it; Cornell was OK with it and I needed to GTFO.
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I am yet another victim of government schooling.
I credit the school system with only one thing: at the time, they managed to introduce me to economics. The hardcore Austrian stuff, not this watered down and distorted garbage we're seeing in schools now. Current students aren't so lucky.
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Yet another victim of public school!
When I think back about school, I do think I learned a few things that I wouldn't have tried to learn on my own, but all of the "important" things I feel I know, I didn't learn in school at all. That includes my professional knowledge, thoughts on freedom, philosophical conclusions, etc.
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I am yet another victim of government schooling.
I credit the school system with only one thing: at the time, they managed to introduce me to economics. The hardcore Austrian stuff, not this watered down and distorted garbage we're seeing in schools now. Current students aren't so lucky.
My high school econ teacher was pretty much an Austrian, but I took the class after I had discovered liberty. We had fun dismantling people's arguments about minimum wage and such together.
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I went to government school my whole life. I was lucky, I had teachers that encouraged me to learn, think, and challenge things. And I also had parents that didn't really instill any values in me. My father taught me bad words, and to appreciate classic rock, and my mother taught me by counter-example not to drink like a fish.
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Interesting subject.
Growing up in a communist country (in Europe), I didn't have a choice but to go to a government school (no existence of private schools), which translates to many years of listening (no dialog possible) to socialistic doctrine whose supporters didn't accept any opposite views and deliberately violated and broke the slightest form of human individualism.
I developed love towards arts and literature in elementary school, and pretty much didn't understand and wasn't paying attention to continuous indoctrinations. But in high school and university I started to pay attention and became quite rebellious and independent. Also, things in society started to change - the war broke out (yep!), after which came, so called, democracy. While some professors weren't as stiff as those in elementary and high school, and not only loved students who knew how to think, but also immensely supported two-way communication, others remained dedicated to their old way of teaching where individualism and different opinions weren't welcomed.
Although changes in society somewhat shaped my political and philosphical views and formed my independence, I mostly drew my knowledge from books and rare people whose opinions I respected. I became an opposite result of what commie goverment wanted to achieve - an individual who thinks.
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Preschool - 3rd Grade - Private School
3rd - 12th - Government school
Then for some reason, I decided I didn't have enough and went to college, and worked for government schools as well. Good thing my real job and area of study didn't require me to indulge in the Collegiate Academia Groupthink (hahahaha.... "ugh....there's CAG all over my hands!"), but was definintely saturated with them (hint: Arts & Technology - film, video, blah blah).
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Kindergarten through the first few months of 8th grade in private school; 3rd grade onward was in a "gifted" school.
I started to hate the private school, so I left in October of 8th grade and was homeschooled for the rest of the year.
9th and 10th were in public high school. Hated it.
For 11th and 12th grades I did Running Start, which is a Washington state program that lets juniors and seniors take community college classes and get both high school and college credit. I more or less dropped out of high school - I was still officially enrolled, but didn't go for anything other than practice for the Knowledge Bowl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Bowl) team, which I ended up being captain of) and took classes only at the community college. The end result was that I was able to escape the shittiness of high school, got an Associate's Degree the same day I graduated high school (one of four people in my graduating class who did so), and got the requirements for all the bullshit survey classes at my 4-year university waived.
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To everyone who is voting and/or replying, thank you so much.
I never went to kindergarten, but attended various church affiliated schools in Illinois & Vancouver, BC through elementary grades. There was one semester in a govt. school in Dixon, IL. My mother was horrified by the results & pulled me to what was the best school out of all. It was church affiliated, had about 100 students, K-12. Used a work at your own pace curriculum. You had to complete 8 books a year in each subject, but could do as many as you wanted. I went through almost four grades in two years. It was soooo much fun!
Finished middle & high school in govt. schools. There just weren't private schools available with the band & orchestra programs I wanted. Not available in my mom's budget range, at least. Went from being an honor roll (where it meant something) student who gave a damn to being a bored honor roll student who read sci-fi & fantasy novels in class instead of studying.
My husband was educated entirely in government schools. His high school was a math/science magnet school. Turned out to be great, since it was probably one of the few schools in his region to actually teach how to think instead of what to think.
Of my three children, not one fits into the traditional class/school setting. My 12 (13 in 3 days) year old comes closest, but that's only after years of struggle. My 5 y.o. is in kindergarten, and would already rather stay home to read books, play music and teach her stuffed animals math on the whiteboard. I get called in to conferences constantly about my 7 y.o. - not because of his grades. Straight A's, but he sometimes decides he doesn't want to do anything in class. Or, he wants to read a book about sharks, instead of doing math. Or write stories about things blowing up - Thank you, Mythbusters.
The kids are currently in (Govt) charter schools, but we're struggling with what to do as the schools become less suited to their growing brains. We've done private, church affiliated school. Hard to reconcile creationism with a little boy's dreams of studying stars & dinosaur bones. We're considering homeschooling, but that leads to tons of questions about how much freedom to give them in choosing studies outside the math & grammar fundamentals.
This is longer than my normal posts - but you all are helping me compile a list of options & concerns as we're making this HUGE decision. Thank you again!
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Joy - Your kids sound inquisitive. This means that, with the help of the Internet and some books, they are perfectly capable of teaching themselves anything they want, with suitable encouragement and progress checks from you and your husband. I know I learned more at home even while in public schools than I did at school, thanks to my parents' encouragement of learning and my inquisitive nature. Homeschooling them will be less of a time commitment then you think. Finding out how to give them time with other kids their age might be more challenging, however.
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I get called in to conferences constantly about my 7 y.o. - not because of his grades. Straight A's, but he sometimes decides he doesn't want to do anything in class. Or, he wants to read a book about sharks, instead of doing math. Or write stories about things blowing up - Thank you, Mythbusters.
You should have him watch Weeds (http://imdb.com/title/tt0439100/) so he can get some ideas from Shane:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MVHjlCIHnFE
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I've been to Dixon, Illinois. I'm so glad I'll never see that place again. :)
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I have fond memories of my time there. Small midwest town, kids, and bicycles.
Happy, Happy. :D
I should probably stay away from there now, as it might ruin all that for me.
I've been to Dixon, Illinois. I'm so glad I'll never see that place again. :)
Shoot! So much for my 1,000th post being something profound.
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I got pulled over there for a busted headlight once. That's why I remember it. I probably should have stayed on the tollway.
As for profound, you can't possibly expect me to be thought-provoking ALL the time!
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I have fond memories of my time there. Small midwest town, kids, and bicycles.
Happy, Happy. :D
I should probably stay away from there now, as it might ruin all that for me.
I've been to Dixon, Illinois. I'm so glad I'll never see that place again. :)
Shoot! So much for my 1,000th post being something profound.
Welcome to the big leagues.
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Public school in the USSR, including boarding school for 2nd grade (I was one bad kid, by their standards), and I was home-schooled for a few months after I knocked four of some guy's teeth out. Good times.
Then I was in American public school starting with 5th grade, which was a zoo of retards in comparison, so I didn't take school seriously here either. Then a charter high school. I still regret that I didn't drop out at 16.
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The kids are currently in (Govt) charter schools, but we're struggling with what to do as the schools become less suited to their growing brains. We've done private, church affiliated school. Hard to reconcile creationism with a little boy's dreams of studying stars & dinosaur bones. We're considering homeschooling, but that leads to tons of questions about how much freedom to give them in choosing studies outside the math & grammar fundamentals.
Joy.
I don't know if you attended the Education Panel at the Liberty Forum. They discussed homeschooling, its benefits and limits. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to stay during the entire presentation, but what I've heard surprised me and it's related to it's limits - since the state still holds the education monopoly, homeschooling parents have to "obide" certain requirements and have their children take standardized tests every year to make sure that they have reached some kind of educational level.
Perhaps, a good way to learn more about homeschooling, if you haven't so far, is to contact panelists - here is more info:
http://freestateproject.org/libertyforum/2007/educationpanel
I also talked briefly to Wayne, FTL co-host, who is homeschooling his children. You may try to contact him to get some additional info.
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I don't recall kindergarden, and am not sure I even attended.
Grades 1-3: Department of Defense-run public school on a U.S. army base in a foreign country
Grades 4-6: Public school in the U.S.
Grades 7-10: Private Christian school in the U.S.
Grade 11: Same as Grades 1-3
Grade 12: Homeschooled through a correspondence curriculum (classes on video, fun!) while in said foreign country
Personally, I was always a rather strong-willed and independent-thinking (contrary might be a word my teachers used) kid. And when the system--political and educational--is as broken as ours is, it's almost inevitable that someone who's always asking "why" and demanding a straight answer will see the problems with it.
I also taught for a couple of years after college at my church's small Christian school. That was... eye-opening.
Joy, if I could suggest a book that has both philosophy and a compilation of resources, you might want to look into The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education, by Grace Llewellyn. It had me rethinking the entire modern approach to education, as by the time I read it I had already begun to wonder about alternatives. There are suggestions and such for homeschoolers in there as well.
(I should probably note though... for whatever reason, the title of the book alone is controversial enough to generate immediate, deeply emotional reactions from others. On two separate occasions when I simply brought the book into a room--without even saying a word!--it elicited remarks ranging from snide to downright nasty, with one or two walkouts. And both times these were people I knew, friends and coworkers!)
-Wayne
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Gordee -
I did attend the first half of the education panel. It was right at the end of my volunteer shift. As much as I hate to admit it, my need to go up to the room & kick off my shoes for a quick nap overwhelmed my desire to hear the rest of the panel.
I did have some great conversations with a couple of the other volunteers who are homeschooling moms. I think contacting a couple of the panelists for some direction is a good idea though. Thanks for the pointer.
Wayne -
Just added the book to my amazon shopping list. Another of Llewellyn's books popped up in the "buy together" option - Guerrilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or Without School Think I'll toss that in the basket too, since I have a couple of younger kidlets too.
I don't really care about controversy. I love telling about the ridiculous conferences we get called in for on our middle child. And when I get notes from gym teachers asking that my 12yo. son not wear libertarian t-shirts at gym class. (Sports & Cartoon shirts are fine though.) I also read disruptive stories to the kids on my mystery reader days (capt. underpants, tra-la-la!)
Again, to everyone posting their experiences here, THANKS!
I'm pitching the whole FSP/Homeschooling thing to my husband this week on our dinner date. (I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but think I've put together a pretty well rounded argument. And, I'll be wearing an awesome dress, which should help.)
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Government school all the way through. Fortunately for my young mind, my father didn't allow my sister or me to watch TV at home, so I read much more than most kids. By 3rd grade, I'd stopped paying attention to school altogether. I spent most of class sitting in the back reading a book while ignoring whatever the teacher was saying. Ironically, I probably have my father's draconian prohibition of most forms of popular entertainment to thank for my freethinking mindset.
Advice for anyone still wasting their time in public school:
Take the GED (or don't) and get out. When I was a senior in high school, the school board decided to "earn" the district some extra money by forcing the senior class to help normalize the GED. I could have passed that shit with flying colors fresh out of 6th grade. You don't have to waste your time in government school if you don't want to. I regret staying all the way through.
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Government school all the way through. Fortunately for my young mind, my father didn't allow my sister or me to watch TV at home, so I read much more than most kids. By 3rd grade, I'd stopped paying attention to school altogether. I spent most of class sitting in the back reading a book while ignoring whatever the teacher was saying. Ironically, I probably have my father's draconian prohibition of most forms of popular entertainment to thank for my freethinking mindset.
Similar experience - no TV at home forced me to read. I taught myself how to read when I was 3.
Advice for anyone still wasting their time in public school:
Take the GED (or don't) and get out. When I was a senior in high school, the school board decided to "earn" the district some extra money by forcing the senior class to help normalize the GED. I could have passed that shit with flying colors fresh out of 6th grade. You don't have to waste your time in government school if you don't want to. I regret staying all the way through.
Also agreed. Here's something people are surprised to find out - most colleges don't give a shit about you graduating from high school. Take as many classes and APs as you can in your first 3 years of high school, then go to college. I am a high school dropout at Cornell and I wouldn't have it any other way. (Yes, I mention that a lot. I'm proud of it and it serves to make a point.)
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I'd be proud of that too. I plan on just saving money for now and starting businesses, then going to college in a few years when I'm like 22 or so.
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I plan on just saving money for now and starting businesses, then going to college in a few years when I'm like 22 or so.
What is it you enjoy doing?
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I plan on just saving money for now and starting businesses, then going to college in a few years when I'm like 22 or so.
What is it you enjoy doing?
Hanging out with my friends.
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Government school until I dropped out in 10th grade. I never liked being told what to do. Smoking pot and getting expelled and prosecuted by the state probably played a major role in my distaste for government.
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Government schools until graduation. I'm still in a public school as part of a state university, but what the hell they got the corner market on this shit. Frankly, I find it all stifling since new ideas and new ways to do things are often slow to catch on or even banned by so-called educators in government schools. It's a sad thing really, because most of my learning is outside of school, so the rest of the time I am simply coming in to take my attendance, my test, and extra credit.
-- Bridget
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I blame public education for most of society's ills, including:
- Obesity - all people are born with a natural inclination to enjoy at least some athletics, but not all will excel in a socialized military-inspired one-size-fits-all gym class. Less athletic kids come associate exercise with embarrassment, and avoid it for the rest of their life.
- Poverty - your prime years are wasted learning things that may not necessarily be useful employment skills, and by the time you graduate the psychological doors are closed; the only thing you've learned that life is unfair, so fuck it.
- Irrational Exuberance - the dominant value the schools reinforce is the importance of being "cool", and the idea that material status symbols can help. Everybody talks about how cool your sneakers or your car is, no one talks about assets that appreciate in value.
- Depression & Suicide - when no one thinks you're cool, the preprogrammed emotional response is that of misery and desperation, even if you have everything to live for, based on the values enforced during schooling.
- Dependence - they might pay lip-service to the idea to clear their conscience, but schools don't teach kids to direct their own studies or acquire information as it becomes relevant to them. If they didn't teach us that in school, the subconscious programming dictates, it must not be very important.
- Gullibility - authority is always right, even when it comes from an asshole teacher you have no rational reason to respect. Don't pursue the truth, pursue the lesson plan. Disobedience is punished and psychologically discouraged, far more so than stupidity.
- Violence - if you've ever been to a second-rate public school, you'll know what I'm talking about.
- Lack of Creativity - also self-explanatory.
- Low Birth Rate - shame on you for not being able to take care of an egg! You'll make a horrible parent! (No matter what the teacher says, that's the subconscious message.) And there are many additional psychological reasons for this as well, the more socialist the school system the less fertile the society.
EDIT:
- Nationalism - no matter the country, history and literature are always taught from a specific point of view. You're always lucky enough to be born in a country that produced the world's greatest poets, or religious leaders, or most dignified folk culture, or whatever. If you were born in Iceland, braving cold climate is important, if you're born in Russia its conquest of continues territory no matter what you do with it, in China its population, in Egypt its hitting the bronze age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_2000_BCE.png) first, in Japan it's all about aggressiveness, in India it's all about compassion. This self-centric attitude doesn't only legitimize the power structure and prepare the public for nationalist war, it also creates many of the geopolitical inequalities that exist today. This would still exist without government-controlled education, but to a far lesser degree.
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Good observation, AlexLibman. Nicely put.
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* Obesity - all people are born with a natural inclination to enjoy at least some athletics, but not all will excel in a socialized military-inspired one-size-fits-all gym class. Less athletic kids come associate exercise with embarrassment, and avoid it for the rest of their life.
Agreed. Even though I'm a skinny fuck, I have never participated in ANY type of athletics (and can't catch anything, even the most catchadelic thing a human mind could imagine) because of this.
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I blame public education for most of society's ills, including:
<snipped>
Excellent points. Public education is certainly one of the core structures that have to be torn down if society really expects to have a free--and HEALTHY!--society.
-Wayne
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Fucking great list AlexLibman :)
....perfect propaganda. What are the odds my principal would mind if I posted this list around?
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Fucking great list AlexLibman :)
....perfect propaganda. What are the odds my principal would mind if I posted this list around?
Start preparing for your 2 week vacation. :P
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I don't mind but you might not want to quote that list directly, it needs to be cleaned up by someone who's sober. To streamline this process, I've dumped it to an article on the FTL wiki (http://wiki.freetalklive.com/Government_schools). O, mighty Wiki spirits, I humbly summon thee, do thy magic! Create structure and grammar where previously there was none!
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I spent kindergarten through 12th grade in public schools, but I went to exceptionally good public schools (I was in the gifted and talented programs and went to Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_High_School_for_Science_and_Technology) for high school). For college I chose to go to the University of Chicago which makes all that look like a joke.
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I spent kindergarten through 12th grade in public schools, but I went to exceptionally good public schools (I was in the gifted and talented programs and went to Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_High_School_for_Science_and_Technology) for high school). For college I chose to go to the University of Chicago which makes all that look like a joke.
So that's where you get it.