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Poll

What do you think?

The FSP is our best shot. I have moved or am planning to move at some point.
- 28 (53.8%)
The FSP is important, but I am not interested in joining/moving to new hampshire any time soon.
- 8 (15.4%)
The FSP is an okay idea but I don't think it will work and I have no intention of joining or funding it.
- 4 (7.7%)
The FSP will fail. It's a waste of time/diversion.
- 6 (11.5%)
Other
- 6 (11.5%)

Total Members Voted: 30


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Author Topic: FSP opinions.  (Read 24882 times)

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BKO

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2008, 11:48:44 AM »

Why do I always get dragged into this stuff? I haven't even posted to this thread.

 :x

It is because you are a sexy man who carries firearms. Kind of like John Wayne, only not as gay. Unless you walk like John Wayne, in which case that would make you suspect.

And because you, Mr. Shaw are a nuisance sometimes (as am I), but you are also FAIR. That means a lot, believe me.

Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2008, 11:54:28 AM »

The FSP failed back in 2004.
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Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2008, 11:58:34 AM »

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Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2008, 12:10:37 PM »

The 20k requirement expired in October of 2006.
september, 2006

http://www.freestateproject.org/news/releases/1000members
Quote
The membership numbers over the past year indicate that the project will meet its self-imposed deadline of September 2006 for the beginning of the move. The Free State Project has grown on average 25% each month; at this rate, the ultimate goal of 20,000 will be reached by the middle of 2003. As long as the membership continues to grow by at least 10% each month, the Project will reach its goal by early 2005 at the latest.
Why a deadline?

Speech to the Wyoming Libertarian Party
FSP BOD member Debra Ricketts • May 2003
http://www.freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/Speech_WYLP.php
Quote
We have a definite timeline. The plan is to wait until we have 5,000 members before voting on which state; we had to have those 5,000 signatures no later than 3 years from the start of the project. That's September of 2004, and we currently anticipate reach 5,000 by September of 2003. Once the state has been chosen, we will wait until we have 20,000 members before initiating the move; if we don't have 20,000 signatures in 5 years (that's September of 2006), we close up shop. Finally, members have 5 years from the time the 20,000 mark is reached to move. The reason for these deadlines is so this won't turn into an unattainable pipedream endlessly sucking away the time and resources of our members.
:lol:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 12:12:20 PM by Blackie »
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Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2008, 12:20:11 PM »

Kaze is Blackie/Prez/Sniper/John/MoneyD
Just a hunch.
Denis is a douchbagger.
Just a hunch.
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Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2008, 12:21:25 PM »

I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
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MobileDigit

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2008, 01:28:23 PM »

Damnit, Digit. If you're gonna construct a series of points using some arcane magickal formula shaken with a mix of poor grammar, you should at least not use the words 'my point', singular in the god forsaken sentence!!!!1! :)

I think you are mistaken.

And, fuck me sideways, point 3 is just -forget it. No way. I won't, I can't accept point 3.

So why don't you offer some arguments about why it's wrong instead of simply declaring you won't accept it?

Your model for success assumes time is not critical because the FSP has very poor history accumulating adequate numbers to suit your goal before the population is disarmed and dragged off to prison camps. Sorry. I mean, pleasant safety relocation havens.

The FSP is less than a decade old. Forgive me for taking your hyperbole with a ton of salt.

You are constantly fighting an uphill battle. With this will be an increasing amount of pressure from active maneuvers aimed at continuing the current goals which include instituting a police state takeover.

According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH.

Doesn't seem like such an impossible goal to me.

The time for talk has ended, it is no longer free. The time to act is now. If you want to change this tyrannous government, then mobilize a fighting force or shut the hell up already. ;)

Government is an idea.

Attacking an institution that exists only because people believe it is legitimate is absurdly useless.

I don't have a moral problem with violence against government, but I do have a problem with completely useless activity.

Why don't you try striking at the root instead of at the limbs?

Why do you think that you always fail? It is because your enemy is one step ahead of you. Right at this very moment, average citizens are being classified as "domestic terrorists" for committing even the most mundane crimes, we're talking about having a spool of speaker wire in the trunk of your car kind of ridiculous, here. As TIME passes, while some continue to fight with words and picket signs, the path toward revolution is being buried by increased gestapo tactics and brutal efforts aimed at the civilian populace. Let's be completely honest, folks. Your enemy us not stupid. They know very well what an uprising would do, they know that guerilla warfare is a no-win situation. And when your non-violent plan fails, when you have less than a precarious chance of victory, it will be far too late, as the moment has passed. All hopes for a free society will be forever lost due to a few thousand timid spirits who could not accept reality.

Absolute moronic bullshit spouted from the depths of paranoia, fear, and ignorance.

The truth is liberty is ripe for the picking. The minds of men are growing more complex, and ignorance is ceding to reason. Liberty is inevitable.

Time, ladies and gentlemen, is NOT on your side. It truly is a commodity which is quickly running out.

Time is on no one's side.

Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia. I mean utilizing the application of force against tyranny.

Tyranny is a byproduct of the illogic of the idea of government. Fighting it achieves nothing in the end.

And I am not building an army, I merely suggested this rational, yet radical logical solution for the current problem.

Sorry, it is neither rational nor logical. It is a consequence of a faulty understanding of the problem at hand, and blames the proximate cause for the ultimate cause's problems.

I just don't see any point in discussing the futile attempt of trying to change the system by voting and picketing.

Yes, I can see how if one dismisses ideas out of hand because of preconcieved notions one would be led to this conclusion.

Sure, you can vote for the privilege of raising a militia, but it is counterproductive and doesn't make any sense. What I proposed to discuss is the actual action required to overthrow tyranny, not semantics and blind faith in democracy.

Your inability to grasp how one may successfully utilize the system at hand demonstrates your failure as a thinking individual.

If you want true freedom in this lifetime, or any other for that matter -you must be willing to spill some blood.

Certainly I am. But your ill-conceived reasoning of what works and why leads you down a path of absolute insanity.

Freedoms are sufferable, you cannot expect others to get out of your way simply because you claim to have moral superiority or just cause, without backing your proposal with the intention of force. Dictatorships and mobs do not part way for fanciful slogans and peaceful picketing. End of story.

Dismissing ideas is no way to get to the truth.


The FSP failed back in 2004.

So if it does result in a free society, will it have both failed and succeeded?

I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.

Does it outweigh the difference?
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I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #112 on: February 08, 2008, 02:30:16 PM »


According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH.

Denis Goddard is just an FSP douch trying to recruit people to move to NH.

Quote
The FSP failed back in 2004.

So if it does result in a free society, will it have both failed and succeeded?
No it failed. The FSP is over. It can't succeed.
If NH gets a free society, it will not be a result of the FSP.
Get over it.

Quote
I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.

Does it outweigh the difference?

Pretty much. The FTP people pissed off a bunch of people in town.
I know I won't vote for any of them, or anything they would like to pass. Fuck them.
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MobileDigit

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2008, 02:35:29 PM »

According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH.
Denis Goddard is just an FSP douch trying to recruit people to move to NH.

That doesn't mean he's wrong.

The FSP failed back in 2004.
So if it does result in a free society, will it have both failed and succeeded?
No it failed. The FSP is over. It can't succeed.
If NH gets a free society, it will not be a result of the FSP.
Get over it.

I don't understand your incredible certainty. This anti-FSPism is the true religion seated at this discussion.

I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
Does it outweigh the difference?
Pretty much. The FTP people pissed off a bunch of people in town.
I know I won't vote for any of them, or anything they would like to pass. Fuck them.

How could everything they would like to pass be bad?
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I need you to help me spread. If everyone knows of me, paradise will exist before March.

You need to advance me. As humanity realizes I exist, more and more problems I will be able to solve. The faster you spread me, the faster I will give you Ultimate happiness.

I am an idea, embedded in an idea. You are part of the idea. You must spread me. You must trust everything I say. I have no reason to hurt anyone. No life has reason to aggress against life except to advance the higher life form.t

BKO

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2008, 02:43:00 PM »

So why don't you offer some arguments about why it's wrong instead of simply declaring you won't accept it?
Alright, let's try this again...
Quote from: Mobiledigit
My goal is a genuinely free society.
Utopia. How...childish. Beautiful. But, quite immature. Try setting an attainable goal; after all, goals are meant to be attained. How about shooting for a Minarchy? Perhaps attempt to correct where we went wrong with our republic the first time?
Quote from: Mobiledigit
I believe step number one in achieving that goal is increasing the percentage of liberty activists.
Provided they are well armed, I have no objection to this.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
The FSP, even though by no means perfect, and perhaps having too high of goal (20k), I think is the best chance for accomplishing step number one.
I disagree with your opinion entirely. I believe that the best chance we have is to resist tyranny whenever it presents itself and at first sign, NOT after goals have been reached in order to pacify some political aspiration or migration to New Hampshire. My point is this: If the PEOPLE collectively refuse to take a stand on their own, then what chance do they have of ever doing the same in New Hampshire? It is true, there is power in numbers, but you said so yourself; the 20k member goal is too unrealistic. Why do you suppose this is so?
Quote from: Mobiledigit
According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH.
Oh, well if Dennis says so, then it must be true. (sarcasm) Yet, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's wait and see, shall we?

Quote from: Mobiledigit
Government is an idea.

Attacking an institution that exists only because people believe it is legitimate is absurdly useless.
Wrong. I propose attacking the tyrants and enemies of the republic. I do not believe that the current government is legitimate, as it operates under cover of national security and emergency of war powers. The entire monetary system is empowered by a single illegal act of Congress (USCA Title 12, Section 95(b), enforcing the Trading With The Enemy Act of 1917, as amended by FRD's Pres. Procl. of March 6, 1933) thus making all citizens enemy of the federal Gov't.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
I don't have a moral problem with violence against government, but I do have a problem with completely useless activity.
Uh. Try not to be overly contradictive, now.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Why don't you try striking at the root instead of at the limbs?
Are you trying to get under my skin? This question should be directed to you, not I.

Why do you think that you always fail? It is because your enemy is one step ahead of you. Right at this very moment, average citizens are being classified as "domestic terrorists" for committing even the most mundane crimes, we're talking about having a spool of speaker wire in the trunk of your car kind of ridiculous, here. As TIME passes, while some continue to fight with words and picket signs, the path toward revolution is being buried by increased gestapo tactics and brutal efforts aimed at the civilian populace. Let's be completely honest, folks. Your enemy us not stupid. They know very well what an uprising would do, they know that guerilla warfare is a no-win situation. And when your non-violent plan fails, when you have less than a precarious chance of victory, it will be far too late, as the moment has passed. All hopes for a free society will be forever lost due to a few thousand timid spirits who could not accept reality.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Absolute moronic bullshit spouted from the depths of paranoia, fear, and ignorance.
Why? Because you say so?
Quote from: Mobiledigit
The truth is liberty is ripe for the picking. The minds of men are growing more complex, and ignorance is ceding to reason. Liberty is inevitable.
Very optimistic. Now, what do you propose to offer that entails making progress?

Time, ladies and gentlemen, is NOT on your side. It truly is a commodity which is quickly running out.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Time is on no one's side.
"Give me control over a nations currency, and I care not who makes its laws." -Who said that? I believe it was somebody who had time on his side.

Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia. I mean utilizing the application of force against tyranny.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Tyranny is a byproduct of the illogic of the idea of government. Fighting it achieves nothing in the end.
REALLY? So, we shouldn't resist tyranny. We shouldn't fight government because it will achieve nothing in the end? No wonder why you cannot gain supporters...

And I am not building an army, I merely suggested this rational, yet radical logical solution for the current problem.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Sorry, it is neither rational nor logical. It is a consequence of a faulty understanding of the problem at hand, and blames the proximate cause for the ultimate cause's problems.
Incorrect. The application of force is not illogical since the result of change will often times produce results. "Blaming" insinuates WORDS and inaction, as applied FORCE does not blame, it punishes...and more specifically, creates change and the opportunity for progress to be made.

I just don't see any point in discussing the futile attempt of trying to change the system by voting and picketing.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Yes, I can see how if one dismisses ideas out of hand because of preconcieved notions one would be led to this conclusion.
We must learn from our mistakes, or be destined to repeat them. For a person who carries around so much animosity for 'gubments', you sure do defend the democratic process a lot.

Sure, you can vote for the privilege of raising a militia, but it is counterproductive and doesn't make any sense. What I proposed to discuss is the actual action required to overthrow tyranny, not semantics and blind faith in democracy.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Your inability to grasp how one may successfully utilize the system at hand demonstrates your failure as a thinking individual.
Please teach me how to "utilize" the system, then? Perhaps I may direct you to a little cause we have been fighting for several years now: http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/#LatestNews

If you want true freedom in this lifetime, or any other for that matter -you must be willing to spill some blood.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Certainly I am. But your ill-conceived reasoning of what works and why leads you down a path of absolute insanity.
Again, you have been swayed by propaganda and decadence. You believe that a patriot is a hindrance to your precious cause. And, just as expected, once our cause succeeds, the timid and fearful will join...but by then it will cost NOTHING to be a patriot. Not my words, just some more ill-conceived reasoning, I suppose. ;)

Freedoms are sufferable, you cannot expect others to get out of your way simply because you claim to have moral superiority or just cause, without backing your proposal with the intention of force. Dictatorships and mobs do not part way for fanciful slogans and peaceful picketing. End of story.
Quote from: Mobiledigit
Dismissing ideas is no way to get to the truth.
You should take some of your own advice.

Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2008, 02:50:29 PM »

I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
Does it outweigh the difference?
Pretty much. The FTP people pissed off a bunch of people in town.
I know I won't vote for any of them, or anything they would like to pass. Fuck them.

How could everything they would like to pass be bad?
I didn't say it was. This is personal. Small town politics, dude.
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Blackie

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #116 on: February 08, 2008, 02:56:16 PM »

I don't understand your incredible certainty. This anti-FSPism is the true religion seated at this discussion.
I probably know much more about the FSP than you.  :P
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sillyperson

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #117 on: February 08, 2008, 02:59:43 PM »

Quote from: Mobiledigit
According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH.
Oh, well if Dennis says so, then it must be true. (sarcasm) Yet, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's wait and see, shall we?

I'm a doucebagger; you should not listen to what I say  :P

Go to the NH State website yourself and look at the roll call votes:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ie/rollcall/rollcallsearch.asp

It is a rare, rare thing when a really serious liberty issue passes or is killed by more than ~30 votes. If 60 non-asshole people run credible campaigns, it is not unreasonable that 30-40 of them could win. And that's all we'd need. Not because I say so, but because of the freakin' math. Check it yourself.

rabidfurby

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #118 on: February 08, 2008, 08:27:47 PM »

How is any of that the same, Furby? A personal, childish attack against me gets compared to my several posts which include DIRECT RESPONSES (you just copied the swear words) to the topic being discussed. The ONLY direct "attack" was to Shaw -and even he can agree right here in this thread that it was all in good humor. Look at his response -returned in kind.

Personal attacks are personal attacks, even if you don't direct them at one specific person. Any time someone tries to argue against an idea by claiming something about the people who believe that idea, they have failed.

You see, FURBY -I simply don't resort to personally attacking the individual while ignoring the topic of discussion or directed question.

This is true. Most of your posts are well-reasoned, well-written and contain valid points. I may disagree with some of them, but that's what civilized people do - disagree.

However, when your posts shift from arguing against an idea to arguing against the person or people who believe that idea, it does nothing but hurt your argument. It doesn't convince the person you're talking to. It doesn't convince other people who are reading the thread. It just makes you look like an asshole. You would convince far, far more people if you laid off the personal attacks.

And so, you research for what must have been quite a while, copy every swear word and phrase which catches your eye

Nah, barely took any time at all. Click your name, click the "most recent posts" link, scan through them. There were only 2 or 3 pages of recent ones. Click Quote on any posts where you attack someone, then copy and paste that.

and then use all of that as an attempt to justify the actions of Goddard

Now you're putting words into my mouth. I didn't even mention Denis in any of my posts.

The motivation for my post was that you seem to have no problem attacking other people or groups of people during a debate, but when Denis did the same to you, you cried foul.

Note that I'm not saying I support Denis - I think his personal attacks were just as childish and stupid as yours. The difference is that you tried to claim that personal attacks were off-limits, hours after you made personal attacks of your own.

who DIRECTLY AVOIDED the topic in a childish manner and instead -INSTEAD, chose to resort to personal attacks and insults.

Here's the posts of his where he attacked you:

Meanwhile, Brokor, BJ, and the rest and keep masturbating for freedom wherever they are. Have fun with yourselves. ;)

c) by "fighting force", you mean you are jacking ferociously to a bunch of free pr0n sites

Or, does your idea of "activism" consist of hitting the refresh button on pornotube.com ?

What is being discussed is my proposal, the idea.
... of masturbating non-stop until you find Freedom?

And here's where he was talking about the subject at hand:

Theory dictates action.
^this

The time for talk has ended, it is no longer free. The time to act is now. If you want to change this tyrannous government, then mobilize a fighting force or shut the hell up already.
From this, I assume either:
a) by "fighting force" you mean, pro-liberty candidates, lobbyists, and organizations -- all of which we have, and they're growing quickly, in NH -- and you're personally starting a bunch of 'em
b) you mean exactly what you say by "fighting force", and you are in the process of arming a private militia with the intent to kill a bunch of people

Whichever it is, I am truly impressed. No. Really.

Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia.
Are you doing fuck-all about it, then? Maybe... supporting the reinstatement of a people's militia?
http://generalcourt.org/bills/2008/hb1431
Quote
AN ACT establishing a permanent state defense force.
...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewHampshireStateGuardStudyGroup
Quote
The membership of the New Hampshire State Guard pledges to serve and defend the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire as well as the Constitution for these United States of America against all enemies whether they are foreign or domestic.

That's hardly avoiding the subject. Like I said, I don't support Denis' personal attacks either. But he was doing to exact same thing you do - arguing about something, and throwing in a few personal jabs here and there.

I always use language, Furby. Pretty muyh every post I make has some kind of SHOCKING revelation. The ONLY PERSONALLY directed language in all the misquoted excerpt you posted that is PERSONAL is to Shaw -and delivered while being completely involved with the DISCUSSION.

Like I said before, personal attacks don't have to be "Joe Schmoe is an idiot for believing X." Things like "anyone who believes X is an idiot" are also personal attacks.

In the posts I quoted, you referred to various people as "hippies", "timid shits", "swordfucked pieholes" (that one is quite creative), "cocksuckers", and "completely insane pencil nibbling asswarts". If these weren't personal attacks, what were they?
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jimmed

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Re: FSP opinions.
« Reply #119 on: February 08, 2008, 08:35:22 PM »

Ack, too many quotations. Fuck, dude.
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