The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: DogOn on January 26, 2008, 11:46:47 PM
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I've always thought the Free State Project is pretty much the best shot at gaining liberty in our lifetimes, but I've never been too sure what the general opinion of it was in the entire liberty movement.
If the FSP fails, it seems like no where else is going to improve in terms of liberty, so the only other thing I can think of actually doing something is some sort of international waters floating city or maybe some sort of space/lunar colony possibly in a hundred years or so.
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I think the FSP is the best chance for a free society to reemerge. Nothing else seems to work.
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I think the FSP is the best chance for a free society to reemerge. Nothing else seems to work.
Agreed. Although looking to get a gauge on what the liberty movement feels on the FSP on this message board with this poll wouldn't be accurate.
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I chose important but not willing to move anytime soon, simply because I can't make such a commitment at this time. Being a dirty foreigner and all, I'll likely have problems getting a green card (or whatever it is I'd need) to move to NH, and I really want to save up some money before doing something big like that.
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I think the FSP is the best chance for a free society to reemerge. Nothing else seems to work.
Agreed. Although looking to get a gauge on what the liberty movement feels on the FSP on this message board with this poll wouldn't be accurate.
Also agree. I attended the Liberty Forum for the first time this year and was blown away by the feeling of being surrounded by hundreds of other vociferous advocates of liberty. I came away with the feeling that there is something very special happening in NH with the FSP...something I want to be a part of asap. I'll be moving this year.
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Speaking of LF08...
I think it is very noteworthy to mention that John McCain was staying at the hotel that we held LF08 at...
I personally said hi to John as I was passing him in the lobby area(I don't like John but it's important to acknowledge them and to call attention to the fact that there are many people watching them...I looked straight into his eyes as I greeted him and he seemed disturbed that his brain didn't register me as one of his "knowns"...I would say that I saw fear in his eyes...).
Along with noting that John was there, it should also be noted that hundreds of LF08 attendees were well armed during LF08.
I'm really surprised that John even stayed at the hotel where hundreds of well armed Ron Paul Revolutionaries were meeting. I think that just goes to show that they personally don't fear an armed populous that much, but use it to pit people against each other and to suck millions out of us through the pro-gun lobby(NRA and such).
Also noteworthy is the fact that John must be totally steaming mad that the Ron Paul Revolution's totally grass roots environment has circumvented his precious McCain-Feingold Act(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipartisan_Campaign_Reform_Act). No matter who gets "elected" we will see a vicious attempt by the criminal "elite" to strengthen these prohibitions against free speech by making "any personal contribution to a candidate and/or campaign" whether "authorized" by the candidate/campaign or not...a federal offense...
ps-Wouldn't it be cool if John actually came to the FTLBBS and read this...lol.
Enjoy!
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NH is our best shot. There will be plenty of people that say that it won't work. Fortunately, those pessimists are the same pessimists that have been attached to every great idea in the history of mankind. Some ideas work, some ideas fail. Thankfully, no can ever change my mind that libertarians living together as neighbors will help to change a mentality in this state. Some people thought that cars were unnecessary. Televisions were worthless. The internet was a fad.
I personally think that the FSP is not the best thing about moving to NH. . . the best part about NH is it's scenic beauty. A beauty that I would die to live amongst.
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BUCKY FULLER IS MY HERO
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The state is really powerful and a significant portion of 300 million people are pretty deeply indoctrinated. Frankly I don't know if anyone will be able to take a significant bite out of that elephant, but I'm optimistic enough to try. I won't bet my life on it or anything. Of all the things being attempted, I think the FSP is up there among the best. There is plenty of reason for optimism.
Meanwhile, there are things we can do here completely outside of politics to have more freedom in some measure right here and now. I know that if I get pulled over by a cop, I can put out a porc 411 call and there's a decent chance someone will show up and start filming, and I feel a lot safer in that situation. I know that if I'm in court for some bullshit violation, people will show up in droves to show support and there will be media about it and things like that make the statists a lot more self-conscious about their actions. We can give each other preferential treatment in our business endeavors. I trust a porc to do renovations on my home more than any other contractor, for instance. Shit like that.
There are a lot of reasons to move here. People need to stop thinking of the FSP as a burdensome task engaging in drudgery to fight for liberty. I really think a lot of people overlook one of the best benefits of being here and that's the benefit you get right here and now, living amongst a really great network of people with like minds who respect each other's individual sovereignty and do a lot of fun stuph. I don't care if we never succeed on the big stuph. Moving here is one of the best decisions I've ever made for my own selfish (or rational self interest if you prefer) reasons. This is just the best place to be right now. I was just telling a friend who recently moved to NH from CA that my social life is way better here than it was when I moved back to my hometown for a while. The most important thing, IMHO, about where you choose to live is the people and we have the best people in the world congregating in NH. If you don't want to come here to promote freedom, come here to have a fucking great time. Trust me. NH rox and is only going to get better the more people like us move here.
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People need to stop thinking of the FSP as a burdensome task engaging in drudgery to fight for liberty.
^this
Shit, why do I spend so many hours every week doing NH Liberty Alliance stuff? Does anyone think it's because I feel like I have a duty to the future freedom of my son? Well, I guess that's part of it, but "duty" is damn low on the list.
I'm doing it because it's fun.
There. I said it.
It's not fun breaking your head against the wall of politics. It is fun fighting for freedom... and WINNING, at least some of the time.
Hell, yeah. Fuck, yeah.
Yeah.
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It will fail but I am moving anyway
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People need to stop thinking of the FSP as a burdensome task engaging in drudgery to fight for liberty.
^this
Triple this
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The FSP is a religion.
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I'm doing it and I think people who haven't signed the First 1,000 should sign the Next 1,000. Do it anonymously if you have to but sign up. New Hampshire is a hundred times better than anywhere else. People here like their liberty and hate the government. There are way more people than signed up on the web site and you can't even keep track of the people in the movement.
But that's the idea.
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People here like their liberty and hate the government.
That's why there's no government at all in NH. None whatsoever. They like it that way. And stuff.
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And stuff.
You called?
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and I am planning on moving to new hampshire eventually
<MD>Why?</MD>
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and I am planning on moving to new hampshire eventually
<MD>Why?</MD>
Because anything is better than here.
If you're going for "anything", you might as well pick something better than NH.
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and I am planning on moving to new hampshire eventually
<MD>Why?</MD>
If your goal is a free society, isn't concentrating liberty activists pretty much step number one?
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and I am planning on moving to new hampshire eventually
<MD>Why?</MD>
If your goal is a free society, isn't concentrating liberty activists pretty much step number one?
Concentrating the thousand or so who might move into a state of more than a million isn't much. The transient college students who support Hillary outnumber them.
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and I am planning on moving to new hampshire eventually
<MD>Why?</MD>
If your goal is a free society, isn't concentrating liberty activists pretty much step number one?
Concentrating the thousand or so who might move into a state of more than a million isn't much. The transient college students who support Hillary outnumber them.
Thats why the FSP's goal is 20,000 people.
*sigh*
Keene only has a population of 22,000 and thats the 2nd biggest city in new hampshire if im not mistaken.
Maybe you should look into things more before you talk about them.
Or maybe its just more satisfying being a whiny douche.
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Thats why the FSP's goal is 20,000 people.
I thought it's current goal is 2,000 people? If that. The 20k requirement expired in October of 2006.
Maybe you should look into things more before you talk about them.
Ahahahhahahahahahaha,,,
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and I am planning on moving to new hampshire eventually
<MD>Why?</MD>
If your goal is a free society, isn't concentrating liberty activists pretty much step number one?
Concentrating the thousand or so who might move into a state of more than a million isn't much. The transient college students who support Hillary outnumber them.
That's true. But where is a better place?
Also, there is the Free Town Project.
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Thats why the FSP's goal is 20,000 people.
I thought it's current goal is 2,000 people? If that. The 20k requirement expired in October of 2006.
Maybe you should look into things more before you talk about them.
Ahahahhahahahahahaha,,,
The first 1,000 and first 2,000 are separate from the end goal of the FSP to move 20,000 people.
It was only planned for people to move once the FSP hit 20,000 members, but some people couldn't wait to move. If you actually read the pledge of intent behind the FSP you'd know that.
Oh and you can stop embarrassing yourself now.
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If you actually read the pledge of intent behind the FSP you'd know that.
Ahahahhahahahahahaah...
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That's true. But where is a better place?
Nevada. Lots of freedom NOW, low taxes, etc.
Also, there is the Free Town Project.
Where? I don't see any ACTIVE project like that.
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where is a better place?
Nevada. Lots of freedom NOW, low taxes, etc.
My goal is a free society. Do you really think Nevada will have a free society before NH?
Also, there is the Free Town Project.
Where? I don't see any ACTIVE project like that.
Define "active".
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My goal is a free society. Do you really think Nevada will have a free society before NH?
Does NH have legalized prostitution, gambling, indoor smoking in private establishments, and medical marijuana? Nevada even had a ballot measure to decriminalize all marijuana possession. Seems like a hell of a lot more on the way to "freedom" than NH. Unless you define "freedom" as not wearing a seatbelt.
Define "active".
A group that has meetings and assists people though a network of members to move to a specific town.
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My goal is a free society. Do you really think Nevada will have a free society before NH?
Does NH have legalized prostitution, gambling, indoor smoking in private establishments, and medical marijuana? Nevada even had a ballot measure to decriminalize all marijuana possession. Seems like a hell of a lot more on the way to "freedom" than NH. Unless you define "freedom" as not wearing a seatbelt.
You didn't answer my question.
Define "active".
A group that has meetings and assists people though a network of members to move to a specific town.
So does that exist anywhere?
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My goal is a free society. Do you really think Nevada will have a free society before NH?
Does NH have legalized prostitution, gambling, indoor smoking in private establishments, and medical marijuana? Nevada even had a ballot measure to decriminalize all marijuana possession. Seems like a hell of a lot more on the way to "freedom" than NH. Unless you define "freedom" as not wearing a seatbelt.
You didn't answer my question.
Sorry, toots. Yes.
Define "active".
A group that has meetings and assists people though a network of members to move to a specific town.
So does that exist anywhere?
Not that I'm aware of.
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If you actually read the pledge of intent behind the FSP you'd know that.
Ahahahhahahahahahaah...
you make a persuasive argument.
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If you actually read the pledge of intent behind the FSP you'd know that.
Ahahahhahahahahahaah...
you make a persuasive argument.
I know the pledge, boy.
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My goal is a free society. Do you really think Nevada will have a free society before NH?
Does NH have legalized prostitution, gambling, indoor smoking in private establishments, and medical marijuana? Nevada even had a ballot measure to decriminalize all marijuana possession. Seems like a hell of a lot more on the way to "freedom" than NH. Unless you define "freedom" as not wearing a seatbelt.
You didn't answer my question.
Sorry, toots. Yes.
Maybe you're right. I don't see it.
Define "active".
A group that has meetings and assists people though a network of members to move to a specific town.
So does that exist anywhere?
Not that I'm aware of.
Isn't a defunct FTP better than nothing?
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If you actually read the pledge of intent behind the FSP you'd know that.
Ahahahhahahahahahaah...
you make a persuasive argument.
I know the pledge, boy.
If you knew it why the fuck would you say :
"I thought it's current goal is 2,000 people? If that. The 20k requirement expired in October of 2006."
You got schooled. Stop trying to "win", you're not bringing anything funny or factually correct to the table. If you're going to try and do the cool cynical forumite thing you might want to make sure you actually know what you're talking about.
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If you knew it why the fuck would you say
If you actually knew what you were talking about you would know that the FSP basically ceased to exist on Oct 1st, 2006 because the quorum of 20k members had not been reached by then. So the 20k number is technically off, which is why they're having these small pisspoor goals now.
P.S.: PWNED!
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If you knew it why the fuck would you say
the FSP basically ceased to exist on Oct 1st, 2006
No.
and i have no idea where you are pulling this Oct 1st deadline from, all i have ever seen from the FSP is that anyone who signed the pledge of intent should move when it hits 20,000, if you want to move earlier then go ahead has been the message i've seen, but nothing about if we don't have 20,000 by date X all bets are off.
As for the "pisspoor goals", the first 1000 wasn't thought up by any FSP head honchos, it was, if my memory serves me, thought up by our very own Ian Bernard, I have never seen or heard of anyone from the upper echelons of the FSP talking about the 20,000 number being scrapped for the first 1000.
If no one was even planning moving until 20,000 members joined, which by any ones estimate would have taken at least 10+ years since inception, how is it a "pisspoor goal" to want to move 1000 straight away?
I've tried to find this requirement thing you are talking about but I'm not having any luck, please actually source me something that backs up what you're saying.
There is no better chance for liberty in USA than the FSP, if you think what you have posted counts as a sufficient rebuttal to that then you need to seriously up your standards of evidence.
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I joined FSP over a year ago, but I've recently changed my mind. I ain't a sucker for lost causes no more! I hope it'll become viable in the future, but right now I just don't see it. After all that fuss, Ron Paul getting 8% in a state once won by Buchanan with a similar platform is inexcusable!
From another thread:
NH is also the first primary, after which, like you said, a lot of people abandoned hope. He also spent the most time & money there. The big-L Libertarian Party of NH (http://www.lpnh.org/) (or other third parties) isn't even on the ballot in NH. Most libertarians seem to vote Republican, but your state has a popular Democrat governor, and a growing Democrat dominance in the legislature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Hampshire_Legislature#Make-up_of_the_House_of_Representatives), with just 0.25% Independents. As a matter a fact, the NH board of elections has some sort of a weird conspiracy against third parties - in 2004, LP candidate Michael Badnarik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2004#Election_results) only got 372 write-in votes in NH, less than any state both as an absolute number or a percentage! (Except Oklahoma, where he also wasn't on the ballot.)
If a libertarian POTUS candidate gets 8% of the NH vote in 2008, then we'll talk. Until then, it's just a McCain / Romney / Clinton suburb of Boston.
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I hope it'll become viable in the future, but right now I just don't see it.
What has a better chance of achieving a free society?
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I hope it'll become viable in the future, but right now I just don't see it.
What has a better chance of achieving a free society?
The People of Nevada.
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I hope it'll become viable in the future, but right now I just don't see it.
What has a better chance of achieving a free society?
The People of Nevada.
Why do you think they have a better chance?
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I hope it'll become viable in the future, but right now I just don't see it.
What has a better chance of achieving a free society?
The People of Nevada.
Why do you think they have a better chance?
They have approved more freedom then any other state so far. Seems like they're in the lead to me.
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and i have no idea where you are pulling this Oct 1st deadline from
Then you know not what you're talking about.
Pretending it doesn't exist doesn't mean it didn't. Sorry, i got the date wrong. September 2006:
"Q. What is the time frame for the Free State Project?
A. The Participation Guidelines state that a signature on the Statement of Intent becomes void, and must be renewed by the signer, if three years pass before we reach 5,000 members and select the state. The Participation Guidelines also state that once we reach 20,000 members, everyone has five years to move to the selected state. The Participation Guidelines do not specify a requisite time period between reaching 5,000 members and reaching 20,000 members. However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold. To get 20,000 signers by September 2006, we will need approximately 15 new signatures per day on average. In the month of September 2002 we averaged 7 new signatures per day, while in August and October we have averaged about 20 signatures per day, compared to 4 per day in February and below 1 per day before then. As we continue to expand our publicity and advertising efforts, a constant average of 15 per day should be well within reach."
http://web.archive.org/web/20030812172804/www.freestateproject.org/faqs.htm
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Isn't a defunct FTP better than nothing?
No, because that means it has failed and discourages anyone else from trying.
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Dissagree with this, ha:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=1017.msg13413#msg13413
"Title: Re:What if we can't get 20,000 members by 2006?
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 10, 2002, 09:23:22 pm
If we don't get 20000 by the end of 2006, the FSP itself will fold, but mayhap a new organization will take its place. If we've reached 10,000, we may start something new focused on Wyoming - where 10K would be enough - and ask all our members to commit to the new Project. This is just speculation at this point, however. I do think we definitely need to get to 5000 by September 2004 for this idea to continue."
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I love these old BBS threads:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=10883.msg147768#msg147768
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Kaze is Blackie/Prez/Sniper/John/MoneyD
Just a hunch.
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Kaze is Blackie/Prez/Sniper/John/MoneyD
Just a hunch.
Blackie is still Blackie.
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The People of Nevada.
Why do you think they have a better chance?
They have approved more freedom then any other state so far. Seems like they're in the lead to me.
I've thought about it, and I've come to the conclusion that it's the principle of the thing. I don't think a free society will be achieved without an outside influence, and I think the best chance for that is the Free State Project. Whether they have some more freedoms now is irrelevant if they are not on the path to liberty. That's what it comes down to, for me at least.
Isn't a defunct FTP better than nothing?
No, because that means it has failed and discourages anyone else from trying.
I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
Kaze is Blackie/Prez/Sniper/John/MoneyD
Just a hunch.
I think it's Taors.
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I've thought about it, and I've come to the conclusion that it's the principle of the thing.
If you're going to stick to principles over practicality, then you've already lost. Principles don't mean shit in a state where people consistently vote to take away more of your rights. I want as much freedom as I can get NOW.
I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
So does Keene. 5 people out of 1000 in Grafton and 20 people in 20000 in Keene aren't gonna do shit.
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I don't think we need 20,000 or even 10,000. Most people are figuring that 2,000 will be enough, and maybe half that. There were 1,031 signers for the First 1,000 and already 21 on the Next 1,000. If the number of signers at the fsp site and on Next 1,000 keep going up at the current rate, we should have 2,000 by the next presidential primary.
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I don't think we need 20,000 or even 10,000. Most people are figuring that 2,000 will be enough, and maybe half that. There were 1,031 signers for the First 1,000 and already 21 on the Next 1,000. If the number of signers at the fsp site and on Next 1,000 keep going up at the current rate, we should have 2,000 by the next presidential primary.
Can you even absolutely confirm you have 500 people moved there? How many of those are activists, 25? So If you get 2000 people moved there, eventually, how are 100 activists gonna make a difference in a state of over a million? Gonna suicide bomb the legislature?
How's that smoking ban?
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If you're going to stick to principles over practicality, then you've already lost.
I think my argument holds:
1. Goal: Free society.
2. Achieving the goal requires an increase in the concentration of liberty activists.
3. The FSP is the best chance for #2.
4. Therefore, NH wins over Nevada.
I understand you have a slightly different goal than me, but I don't think that makes my argument incorrect.
Principles don't mean shit in a state where people consistently vote to take away more of your rights.
I don't think that changes just because you move to NV.
I want as much freedom as I can get NOW.
I have a different goal. I want to establish a free society in my lifetime. If that means I have to work to get it, so be it. I think it's worth it.
So does Keene. 5 people out of 1000 in Grafton and 20 people in 20000 in Keene aren't gonna do shit.
You're probably right. But I disagree that NV has a better chance. I think if we are fucked either way, we may as well give NH a shot.
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3. The FSP is the best chance for #2.
4. Therefore, NH wins over Nevada.
If 1000 liberty activists, not just MOVERS, moved to Nevada independent of the FSP would you reconsider?[/quote]
I think if we are fucked either way, we may as well give NH a shot.
That's like sinking the rest of your life savings into a losing horse because "I'm fucked anyways". Some people know when to cut and run, some people go down with the sinking ship over principle. I am not a lemming.
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If 1000 liberty activists, not just MOVERS, moved to Nevada independent of the FSP would you reconsider?
Absolutely. I think people should move to wherever they think is best. If they think NV has a better chance, I've got no problem with that. In my opinion step number one is concentrating liberty activists, and NH seems to be doing better than NV at that. That's what it comes down to for me.
I think if we are fucked either way, we may as well give NH a shot.
That's like sinking the rest of your life savings into a losing horse because "I'm fucked anyways". Some people know when to cut and run, some people go down with the sinking ship over principle. I am not a lemming.
Actually the proposition is this:
1. If NV cannot achieve a free society;
2. and NH has the possibility;
3. then NH wins.
If NH does not have that possibility, then I would agree with you: freedom lovers should go to wherever is currently the freest. I think it does have the possibility though, and so NH wins.
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If the FSP up and moves to Nevada, you can count me in for your celebrations such as PorcFest, but once I'm in NH, I'm staying in NH.
for life. . . I love the state, and it's been my dream to move there since I was a kid. A nice house in the mountains, with a barn, some electricity from solar panels/generator/wind turbine. . . I'll be set.
but I love the fact that Ron did good in Nevada and Montana.
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NH hasn't been winning for everyone. There are lots of people who can't or won't come up. NV was never given a chance, anyway, because the board excluded the state from the vote. If someone can't or won't move to NH for whatever reason, maybe we should just have an alternate out there. Some people started movements in MT and WY, but they never got the mandate of a vote, so they just started moving.
Discussion a potential second state could also bring in some more attention for NH. The more activists we have nationwide, the better chance we'll have to make some impact on national government. Four US Reps and four US Senators would have to answer to liberty voters.
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we might as well just have everyone stay in all 50 states and every country worldwide. Doing lots of good that way too.
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NH hasn't been winning for everyone. There are lots of people who can't or won't come up. NV was never given a chance, anyway, because the board excluded the state from the vote. If someone can't or won't move to NH for whatever reason, maybe we should just have an alternate out there. Some people started movements in MT and WY, but they never got the mandate of a vote, so they just started moving.
Discussion a potential second state could also bring in some more attention for NH. The more activists we have nationwide, the better chance we'll have to make some impact on national government. Four US Reps and four US Senators would have to answer to liberty voters.
I want as many liberty groups, free state projects, whatever as possible. Anyone doing anything to help liberty has my total support. I might suggest ways i think might be better, but I'm still extremely grateful that they're getting off their ass and doing anything at all, rather than just being cynical and taking the easy position of, nothings going to get better so im not even going to try.
I'm not particularly arguing against people who don't think NH is the best place for the FSP. I mean i think it is, but if you think theres a better state, i don't want you to do something you don't believe in just because i say, its just the, "things are bad now, i dont think they're going to get better so im going to wait until it falls into my lap" attitude that i don't like.
So far all the people who are so certain the NH FSP will fail, haven't been advertising their NV FSP or any other freedom helping idea. I don't know what it is but some people seem to enjoy just pissing on other peoples bonfires without actually suggesting or doing anything better. If they were disagreeing because they genuinely thought they had a better idea to achieve liberty, they'd be putting some effort into achieving their goal, instead of just being crotchety and insulting on an internet forum.
I'm sorry, if you think waiting for things to get better is going to do more than the NH FSP, whatever disagreements you have with it, you're delusional and I'm ashamed to be counted in the same group as you.
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we might as well just have everyone stay in all 50 states and every country worldwide. Doing lots of good that way too.
Wank wank wank.
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Discussion a potential second state could also bring in some more attention for NH.
:roll:
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I'm sorry, if you think waiting for things to get better is going to do more than the NH FSP, whatever disagreements you have with it, you're delusional and I'm ashamed to be counted in the same group as you.
LOL.
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Anyway, I'll move to Nevada 'cause it's freer right now. It also snows less.
The climate seems to be increasing freedom in NV, while NH has been losing more and more of the special things it had every legislative session.
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Anyway, I'll move to Nevada 'cause it's freer right now. It also snows less.
Do you accept that the FSP is the best chance for a free society in our lifetime?
The climate seems to be increasing freedom in NV, while NH has been losing more and more of the special things it had every legislative session.
Different states serve different goals.
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Mobile you do realize thats Bonerjoe you're trying to argue reasonably with don't you? :lol:
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Do you accept that the FSP is the best chance for a free society in our lifetime?
I don't believe state-wide takeover plans will work.
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Do you accept that the FSP is the best chance for a free society in our lifetime?
I don't believe state-wide takeover plans will work.
Why not?
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Not enough people.
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Not enough people.
How many people do you think it would take?
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probably working on the free basement project. . . where he'll move liberty lovers in and try and get his mom to leave him alone. That might work! Plenty of people might just get you allowed to smoke in your room too!
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Not enough people.
How many people do you think it would take?
51% of the registered voters.
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What do you think of Denis Goddard's prediction:
We need 4-5 dozen more libertarians or libertarian-leaning people in the State House to shut down the Statists entirely.
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What do you think of Denis Goddard's prediction:
We need 4-5 dozen more libertarians or libertarian-leaning people in the State House to shut down the Statists entirely.
They have to get elected first.
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What do you think of Denis Goddard's prediction:
We need 4-5 dozen more libertarians or libertarian-leaning people in the State House to shut down the Statists entirely.
They have to get elected first.
He elaborates on that:
We need 2-3 dozen more libertarians or libertarian-leaning people in the State House to shut down the Statists entirely.
That ought to be entirely plausible once a few thousand people have moved to NH, right?
For this particular strategy, we don't need a few thousand.
It sure helps, but it certainly doesn't guarantee anything.
What this strategy needs are 4-5 dozen people (assuming half of them never get elected, for whatever reason)
These need to be people who:
1) are able to be at the State House 3 days a week, from 8AM to 4PM, with (basically) no pay
2) when they move to NH, volunteer in the community -- food bank, animal shelter, library, stuff like that
3) not be raging assholes. keep their mouth shut and listen to people, at least as much as they talk. not advocate killing cops. no start talking about legalizing crack cocaine and prostitution, at least not until a lot of their neighbors have come to realize that the person and the ideas are not crackpot
That's 3 hard hurdles to clear. But there are people like that in-state already, and more on the way.
Most of the people like that in-state failed to get elected in 2006 because they ran as Republicans. There was huge backlash against the Iraq war, and people voted (D) because they were pissed off with the (R) brand.
In 2007 we eliminated straight-ticket voting, so that should help somewhat.
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Lobbyists? LOL. They sure stopped that smoking ban.
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I've always thought the Free State Project is pretty much the best shot at gaining liberty in our lifetimes...
Yeah...you're new, aren't you? Give it time. No, seriously. A couple years ago there was like...3 less people, and now it's just growing out of control. Hold on. It's coming. No, wait. Yeah, OK. Yeah, we just got this in: there's a rumor about a guy who was evicted in Tulsa and he's looking for a....wait. Oh, damn. Lost another one.
If When the FSP fails...
Uh, lemme help you there.
...it seems like no where else is going to improve in terms of liberty...
"And this is why you fail", said Yoda.
...so the only other thing I can think of actually doing something is some sort of international waters floating city or maybe some sort of space/lunar colony possibly in a hundred years or so.
And this is why I make fun of you, said I.
You are right on target, though. You will fit right in with the rest of the FTL crew. Soon you will be pondering the ten thousand varieties of anarchy and tempting anneurisms while offhandedly regurgitating slogans that mean absolutely nothing and having battles of whit that even the special olympics would have a slightly tough time keeping up with.
Good luck with all....that.
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Lobbyists? LOL. They sure stopped that smoking ban.
I don't think a lobbyist is someone that is elected.
Also, comparing today's number of elected libertarians with the amount of influence they have been able to muster to 5 dozen and implying that 5 dozen would not have a significant effect (be able to "shut down the statists entirely" as Denis put it) is absurd.
I've always thought the Free State Project is pretty much the best shot at gaining liberty in our lifetimes...
Yeah...you're new, aren't you? Give it time. No, seriously. A couple years ago there was like...3 less people, and now it's just growing out of control. Hold on. It's coming. No, wait. Yeah, OK. Yeah, we just got this in: there's a rumor about a guy who was evicted in Tulsa and he's looking for a....wait. Oh, damn. Lost another one.
If you're going to make fun of the FSP why don't you share what you think is more effective.
If When the FSP fails...
Uh, lemme help you there.
I don't know, it still might reach 20k.
...it seems like no where else is going to improve in terms of liberty...
"And this is why you fail", said Yoda.
So do you have an argument for where that place is?
Soon you will be pondering the ten thousand varieties of anarchy and tempting anneurisms while offhandedly regurgitating slogans that mean absolutely nothing and having battles of whit that even the special olympics would have a slightly tough time keeping up with.
You know, understanding issues like anarcho-capitalism and libertarianism is important. Theory dictates action.
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don't let the 'pop in every 5th month' trolls get you down. They're the types that are asked to guess how many jellybeans are in the jar, and end up throwing it against the wall so they have something to cry about.
never seen bigger bunch of pessimistic whiners ever. It woon't worrrrk it won't worrrrk whaaaa whaaa
:P :lol:
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I'm funnier, Mobile.
So do you have an argument for where that place is?
Yaop. Starts with the letters AK and ends with 47.
You know, understanding issues like Anarcho-Capitalism and Libertarianism is important. Theory dictates action.
Then in this case, you have only nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety eight more theories to interpret until you get to the "action" part.
Good luck with everything. Please be sure to let me know how it -oh, nevermind. I'll just "expect you", shall I? Might be a while? ;)
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I'm funnier, Mobile.
Oh was that what that was? I just thought it was stupid.
So do you have an argument for where that place is?
Yaop. Starts with the letters AK and ends with 47.
So how does that work exactly?
You know, understanding issues like Anarcho-Capitalism and Libertarianism is important. Theory dictates action.
Then in this case, you have only nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety eight more theories to interpret until you get to the "action" part.
I disagree that understanding anarcho-capitalism or libertarianism is all that difficult. I was a libertarian after listening to FTL for a few months. Arguing about these issues is hardly a waste of time.
Good luck with everything. Please be sure to let me know how it -oh, nevermind. I'll just "expect you", shall I? Might be a while? ;)
It's just mean and stupid.
Good job trying to make fun of my handle.
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An AK-47 works very simply, actually. Pop the mag in, of course you have to tilt it a bit first, but after a couple of tries...hell, even a kid can use it. The kids in Africa can, at least.
Hrmm. Mobile. Digit. Nah, I don't even need to "try" and make fun of that one. :P
I dunno, my good man. I agree with you that debate and intelligent discussion helps. I just cannot accept an excuse for the FSP intentions, I am sorry. I do believe we've covered this somewhere before. And nice comeback with the "stupid", I almost laughed like somebody who is actually stupid enough to actually believe it was funny.
Shh, don't tell anybody. ;)
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An AK-47 works very simply, actually. Pop the mag in, of course you have to tilt it a bit first, but after a couple of tries...hell, even a kid can use it. The kids in Africa can, at least.
So how does one go about using a AK-47 to create a free society?
I just cannot accept an excuse for the FSP intentions, I am sorry.
Why would the FSP intentions need to be excused?
I do believe we've covered this somewhere before.
Well I don't remember it and I find it an interesting and fruitful topic.
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So do I. I believe that you should start the topic. No, no...I insist.
And if you like I shall attempt to explain the answers to your other questions as well...so you can POUNCE on me like a coiled cougar. Absent the threat.
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So do I. I believe that you should start the topic. No, no...I insist.
My goal is a genuinely free society. I believe step number one in achieving that goal is increasing the percentage of liberty activists. The FSP, even though by no means perfect, and perhaps having too high of goal (20k), I think is the best chance for accomplishing step number one.
Which points do you disagree with?
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Well, you only gave me ONE point. And, I disagree with the entire... point.
Your model for success is inherantly flawed, both in logic and in primer. It assumes that time is not critical, that an abundance of time is present; this is not realistic nor wise to accept.
In short, it is kind of senseless, like Jefferson Starship claiming to have "built their city" on rock and roll, only twice as gay.
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Well, you only gave me ONE point. And, I disagree with the entire... point.
Actually I gave an argument constructed of 3 points:
1. Goal: Free society.
2. Step number one in achieving that goal: increasing the percentage of liberty activists.
3. The FSP has the best chance of fulfilling #2.
Your model for success is inherantly flawed, both in logic and in primer. It assumes that time is not critical, that an abundance of time is present; this is not realistic nor wise to accept.
How does my model for success assume time is not critical?
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Damnit, Digit. If you're gonna construct a series of points using some arcane magickal formula shaken with a mix of poor grammar, you should at least not use the words 'my point', singular in the god forsaken sentence!!!!1! :)
OK, let's see. I LOVE point 1. Cool. Point 2, well...alright, I like it. It isn't applicable in my model entirely, but for yours it is a nice color. Doesn't quite go well with my leather jacket, but I can dig it. And, fuck me sideways, point 3 is just -forget it. No way. I won't, I can't accept point 3.
Your model for success assumes time is not critical because the FSP has very poor history accumulating adequate numbers to suit your goal before the population is disarmed and dragged off to prison camps. Sorry. I mean, pleasant safety relocation havens.
You are constantly fighting an uphill battle. With this will be an increasing amount of pressure from active maneuvers aimed at continuing the current goals which include instituting a police state takeover. And who knows what else? Perhaps a nice landing strip project for the Raelians so they can greet their alien masters. Hah. Ehem. Yeah.
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I moved to NH because it's a great place to live and because I think its the last battleground. There's no where else to retreat to. What are we going to do if the fsp fails? Is there some other project on the horizon that has some kind of chance?
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Theory dictates action.
^this
Meanwhile, Brokor, BJ, and the rest and keep masturbating for freedom wherever they are. Have fun with yourselves. ;)
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The time for talk has ended, it is no longer free. The time to act is now. If you want to change this tyrannous government, then mobilize a fighting force or shut the hell up already. ;)
Why do you think that you always fail? It is because your enemy is one step ahead of you. Right at this very moment, average citizens are being classified as "domestic terrorists" for committing even the most mundane crimes, we're talking about having a spool of speaker wire in the trunk of your car kind of ridiculous, here. As TIME passes, while some continue to fight with words and picket signs, the path toward revolution is being buried by increased gestapo tactics and brutal efforts aimed at the civilian populace. Let's be completely honest, folks. Your enemy us not stupid. They know very well what an uprising would do, they know that guerilla warfare is a no-win situation. And when your non-violent plan fails, when you have less than a precarious chance of victory, it will be far too late, as the moment has passed. All hopes for a free society will be forever lost due to a few thousand timid spirits who could not accept reality.
Time, ladies and gentlemen, is NOT on your side. It truly is a commodity which is quickly running out.
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The time for talk has ended, it is no longer free. The time to act is now. If you want to change this tyrannous government, then mobilize a fighting force or shut the hell up already.
From this, I assume either:
a) by "fighting force" you mean, pro-liberty candidates, lobbyists, and organizations -- all of which we have, and they're growing quickly, in NH -- and you're personally starting a bunch of 'em
b) you mean exactly what you say by "fighting force", and you are in the process of arming a private militia with the intent to kill a bunch of people
c) by "fighting force", you mean you are jacking ferociously to a bunch of free pr0n sites
Whichever it is, I am truly impressed. No. Really.
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Keene only has a population of 22,000 and thats the 2nd biggest city in new hampshire if im not mistaken.
Maybe you should look into things more before you talk about them.
You are mistaken.
I love how that line is followed by the other.
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Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia. I mean utilizing the application of force against tyranny.
And I am not building an army, I merely suggested this rational, yet radical logical solution for the current problem.
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Keene only has a population of 22,000 and thats the 2nd biggest city in new hampshire if im not mistaken.
Maybe you should look into things more before you talk about them.
You are mistaken.
I love how that line is followed by the other.
The rank of Keene among size of new Hampshire cities is pretty irrelevant trivia. After a quick Google and wikipedia search didn't make it clear what rank, i couldn't be bothered spending any more time on the question.
However, how many people are members of the free state project and what the goal of the free state project is actually quite relevant to this issue of whether the FSP is a good idea or not.
Point remains, Keene is one of the largest "cities" in New Hampshire, and the fact I didn't know its exact rank doesn't take away from the point I was making. However saying the the FSP is going to fail because it only plans on moving a few thousand people is blatantly false.
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Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia.
Are you doing fuck-all about it, then? Maybe... supporting the reinstatement of a people's militia?
http://generalcourt.org/bills/2008/hb1431
AN ACT establishing a permanent state defense force.
...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewHampshireStateGuardStudyGroup
The membership of the New Hampshire State Guard pledges to serve and defend the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire as well as the Constitution for these United States of America against all enemies whether they are foreign or domestic.
Or, does your idea of "activism" consist of hitting the refresh button on pornotube.com ?
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Manchester - 109,000
Nashua - 88,000
Concord - 40,000
Rochester - 29,000
Keene - 22,000
Portsmouth - 21,000
Obviously, Deerfield (4,000), Grafton (2,000), and Seabrook (7,000) are going to get there first as free town projects. There are lots of people in Manchester, but that's a big city. The others listed have large liberal voting bases (except Rochester). Keene and Portsmouth are nice cities, but I don't think that they'll ever see proliberty majorities. Porcs have to keep their heads down, there.
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Whoa, ease up Goddard.
What I choose to do is none of your concern. What is being discussed is my proposal, the idea. You don't have to resort to personal attacks. I am sorry that I can't be there to support your defunct Free State Project, but you don't have to resort to personal attacks just because I refuse to join the NH National Guard wannabe club.
I'm currently in Europe, and I already have a contract with my federal employers. And that is all I will say about that.
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What is being discussed is my proposal, the idea.
... of masturbating non-stop until you find Freedom?
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What is being discussed is my proposal, the idea.
... of masturbating non-stop until you find Freedom?
How...professional.
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Hehe.
I just don't see any point in discussing the futile attempt of trying to change the system by voting and picketing. Sure, you can vote for the privilege of raising a militia, but it is counterproductive and doesn't make any sense. What I proposed to discuss is the actual action required to overthrow tyranny, not semantics and blind faith in democracy.
If you want true freedom in this lifetime, or any other for that matter -you must be willing to spill some blood. Freedoms are sufferable, you cannot expect others to get out of your way simply because you claim to have moral superiority or just cause, without backing your proposal with the intention of force. Dictatorships and mobs do not part way for fanciful slogans and peaceful picketing. End of story.
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You don't have to resort to personal attacks.
Are you fucking serious?
dead-end hippie camp out in the frozen tundra of New Hampshire.
Talk about wolves gone rabid, you timid shits will probably eat your own young if it served your useless cause.
You catch ONE little mistake, which can arguably be considered to be a strategic ploy, and you swordfucked pieholes jump around like ghetto trash gone wild after the Rodney King verdict.
I agree that Shaw has an excellent point (I rarely agree with that windbag, but hey, Shaw does have a valid point)
I won't bitch and moan if a few of you cocksuckers talk shit and label me as a fruit tampon.
It's actually entertaining to return periodically and find the same idiotic topics posted by what must be completely insane pencil nibbling asswarts.
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+1, man. +1
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The man wielding a kitten strikes again. :lol:
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How is any of that the same, Furby? A personal, childish attack against me gets compared to my several posts which include DIRECT RESPONSES (you just copied the swear words) to the topic being discussed. The ONLY direct "attack" was to Shaw -and even he can agree right here in this thread that it was all in good humor. Look at his response -returned in kind.
You see, FURBY -I simply don't resort to personally attacking the individual while ignoring the topic of discussion or directed question. You can continue to support EVERY PERSON who starts an argument with me if you want to -fuck, I don't expect to change your mind...but, you should know that until you actually PROVE ME WRONG, thus proving YOUR IDEOLOGY correct -and this requires directly answering the question -then you should know that only children will ever support your ridiculous antics.
Goddard avoided the subject because REALITY was too much for him. Furby and Goddard -the two of you make an outstanding team, and you serve the FSP perfectly in my opinion. And so, you research for what must have been quite a while, copy every swear word and phrase which catches your eye, and then use all of that as an attempt to justify the actions of Goddard, who DIRECTLY AVOIDED the topic in a childish manner and instead -INSTEAD, chose to resort to personal attacks and insults.
I always use language, Furby. Pretty muyh every post I make has some kind of SHOCKING revelation. The ONLY PERSONALLY directed language in all the misquoted excerpt you posted that is PERSONAL is to Shaw -and delivered while being completely involved with the DISCUSSION.
Rabidfurby...I now remember why you were on ignore. You are going back to ignore, and it is simply because I have just wasted all the time I intend on your ridiculous ploys. Really, I mean -look at the ROACHES that came out of the woodwork after your idiotic post. Yeah, that was another use of my language, and I do believe that it is far more accurate than blindly accusing others of being "MaSturBaTerZ" while avoiding the discussion altogether. ;)
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Hey Brokor's one cool dude. We should cut him some slack. I'm just +1ing the idea that the S2N ratio here gets pretty bad. I try to ignore the negative stuff and stick with the positive. The feds are probably reading these posts and laughing at us.
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Why do I always get dragged into this stuff? I haven't even posted to this thread.
:x
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Why do I always get dragged into this stuff? I haven't even posted to this thread.
:x
It is because you are a sexy man who carries firearms. Kind of like John Wayne, only not as gay. Unless you walk like John Wayne, in which case that would make you suspect.
And because you, Mr. Shaw are a nuisance sometimes (as am I), but you are also FAIR. That means a lot, believe me.
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The FSP failed back in 2004.
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The FSP is a religion.
cult
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The 20k requirement expired in October of 2006.
september, 2006
http://www.freestateproject.org/news/releases/1000members
The membership numbers over the past year indicate that the project will meet its self-imposed deadline of September 2006 for the beginning of the move. The Free State Project has grown on average 25% each month; at this rate, the ultimate goal of 20,000 will be reached by the middle of 2003. As long as the membership continues to grow by at least 10% each month, the Project will reach its goal by early 2005 at the latest.
Why a deadline?
Speech to the Wyoming Libertarian Party
FSP BOD member Debra Ricketts • May 2003
http://www.freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/Speech_WYLP.php
We have a definite timeline. The plan is to wait until we have 5,000 members before voting on which state; we had to have those 5,000 signatures no later than 3 years from the start of the project. That's September of 2004, and we currently anticipate reach 5,000 by September of 2003. Once the state has been chosen, we will wait until we have 20,000 members before initiating the move; if we don't have 20,000 signatures in 5 years (that's September of 2006), we close up shop. Finally, members have 5 years from the time the 20,000 mark is reached to move. The reason for these deadlines is so this won't turn into an unattainable pipedream endlessly sucking away the time and resources of our members.
:lol:
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Kaze is Blackie/Prez/Sniper/John/MoneyD
Just a hunch.
Denis is a douchbagger.
Just a hunch.
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I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
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Damnit, Digit. If you're gonna construct a series of points using some arcane magickal formula shaken with a mix of poor grammar, you should at least not use the words 'my point', singular in the god forsaken sentence!!!!1! :)
I think you are mistaken.
And, fuck me sideways, point 3 is just -forget it. No way. I won't, I can't accept point 3.
So why don't you offer some arguments about why it's wrong instead of simply declaring you won't accept it?
Your model for success assumes time is not critical because the FSP has very poor history accumulating adequate numbers to suit your goal before the population is disarmed and dragged off to prison camps. Sorry. I mean, pleasant safety relocation havens.
The FSP is less than a decade old. Forgive me for taking your hyperbole with a ton of salt.
You are constantly fighting an uphill battle. With this will be an increasing amount of pressure from active maneuvers aimed at continuing the current goals which include instituting a police state takeover.
According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=19285.msg356515#msg356515).
Doesn't seem like such an impossible goal to me.
The time for talk has ended, it is no longer free. The time to act is now. If you want to change this tyrannous government, then mobilize a fighting force or shut the hell up already. ;)
Government is an idea.
Attacking an institution that exists only because people believe it is legitimate is absurdly useless.
I don't have a moral problem with violence against government, but I do have a problem with completely useless activity.
Why don't you try striking at the root instead of at the limbs?
Why do you think that you always fail? It is because your enemy is one step ahead of you. Right at this very moment, average citizens are being classified as "domestic terrorists" for committing even the most mundane crimes, we're talking about having a spool of speaker wire in the trunk of your car kind of ridiculous, here. As TIME passes, while some continue to fight with words and picket signs, the path toward revolution is being buried by increased gestapo tactics and brutal efforts aimed at the civilian populace. Let's be completely honest, folks. Your enemy us not stupid. They know very well what an uprising would do, they know that guerilla warfare is a no-win situation. And when your non-violent plan fails, when you have less than a precarious chance of victory, it will be far too late, as the moment has passed. All hopes for a free society will be forever lost due to a few thousand timid spirits who could not accept reality.
Absolute moronic bullshit spouted from the depths of paranoia, fear, and ignorance.
The truth is liberty is ripe for the picking. The minds of men are growing more complex, and ignorance is ceding to reason. Liberty is inevitable.
Time, ladies and gentlemen, is NOT on your side. It truly is a commodity which is quickly running out.
Time is on no one's side.
Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia. I mean utilizing the application of force against tyranny.
Tyranny is a byproduct of the illogic of the idea of government. Fighting it achieves nothing in the end.
And I am not building an army, I merely suggested this rational, yet radical logical solution for the current problem.
Sorry, it is neither rational nor logical. It is a consequence of a faulty understanding of the problem at hand, and blames the proximate cause for the ultimate cause's problems.
I just don't see any point in discussing the futile attempt of trying to change the system by voting and picketing.
Yes, I can see how if one dismisses ideas out of hand because of preconcieved notions one would be led to this conclusion.
Sure, you can vote for the privilege of raising a militia, but it is counterproductive and doesn't make any sense. What I proposed to discuss is the actual action required to overthrow tyranny, not semantics and blind faith in democracy.
Your inability to grasp how one may successfully utilize the system at hand demonstrates your failure as a thinking individual.
If you want true freedom in this lifetime, or any other for that matter -you must be willing to spill some blood.
Certainly I am. But your ill-conceived reasoning of what works and why leads you down a path of absolute insanity.
Freedoms are sufferable, you cannot expect others to get out of your way simply because you claim to have moral superiority or just cause, without backing your proposal with the intention of force. Dictatorships and mobs do not part way for fanciful slogans and peaceful picketing. End of story.
Dismissing ideas is no way to get to the truth.
The FSP failed back in 2004.
So if it does result in a free society, will it have both failed and succeeded?
I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
Does it outweigh the difference?
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According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=19285.msg356515#msg356515).
Denis Goddard is just an FSP douch trying to recruit people to move to NH.
The FSP failed back in 2004.
So if it does result in a free society, will it have both failed and succeeded?
No it failed. The FSP is over. It can't succeed.
If NH gets a free society, it will not be a result of the FSP.
Get over it.
I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
Does it outweigh the difference?
Pretty much. The FTP people pissed off a bunch of people in town.
I know I won't vote for any of them, or anything they would like to pass. Fuck them.
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According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=19285.msg356515#msg356515).
Denis Goddard is just an FSP douch trying to recruit people to move to NH.
That doesn't mean he's wrong.
The FSP failed back in 2004.
So if it does result in a free society, will it have both failed and succeeded?
No it failed. The FSP is over. It can't succeed.
If NH gets a free society, it will not be a result of the FSP.
Get over it.
I don't understand your incredible certainty. This anti-FSPism is the true religion seated at this discussion.
I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
Does it outweigh the difference?
Pretty much. The FTP people pissed off a bunch of people in town.
I know I won't vote for any of them, or anything they would like to pass. Fuck them.
How could everything they would like to pass be bad?
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So why don't you offer some arguments about why it's wrong instead of simply declaring you won't accept it?
Alright, let's try this again...
My goal is a genuinely free society.
Utopia. How...childish. Beautiful. But, quite immature. Try setting an attainable goal; after all, goals are meant to be attained. How about shooting for a Minarchy? Perhaps attempt to correct where we went wrong with our republic the first time?
I believe step number one in achieving that goal is increasing the percentage of liberty activists.
Provided they are well armed, I have no objection to this.
The FSP, even though by no means perfect, and perhaps having too high of goal (20k), I think is the best chance for accomplishing step number one.
I disagree with your opinion entirely. I believe that the best chance we have is to resist tyranny whenever it presents itself and at first sign, NOT after goals have been reached in order to pacify some political aspiration or migration to New Hampshire. My point is this: If the PEOPLE collectively refuse to take a stand on their own, then what chance do they have of ever doing the same in New Hampshire? It is true, there is power in numbers, but you said so yourself; the 20k member goal is too unrealistic. Why do you suppose this is so?
According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=19285.msg356515#msg356515).
Oh, well if Dennis says so, then it must be true. (sarcasm) Yet, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's wait and see, shall we?
Government is an idea.
Attacking an institution that exists only because people believe it is legitimate is absurdly useless.
Wrong. I propose attacking the tyrants and enemies of the republic. I do not believe that the current government is legitimate, as it operates under cover of national security and emergency of war powers. The entire monetary system is empowered by a single illegal act of Congress (USCA Title 12, Section 95(b), enforcing the Trading With The Enemy Act of 1917, as amended by FRD's Pres. Procl. of March 6, 1933) thus making all citizens enemy of the federal Gov't.
I don't have a moral problem with violence against government, but I do have a problem with completely useless activity.
Uh. Try not to be overly contradictive, now.
Why don't you try striking at the root instead of at the limbs?
Are you trying to get under my skin? This question should be directed to you, not I.
Why do you think that you always fail? It is because your enemy is one step ahead of you. Right at this very moment, average citizens are being classified as "domestic terrorists" for committing even the most mundane crimes, we're talking about having a spool of speaker wire in the trunk of your car kind of ridiculous, here. As TIME passes, while some continue to fight with words and picket signs, the path toward revolution is being buried by increased gestapo tactics and brutal efforts aimed at the civilian populace. Let's be completely honest, folks. Your enemy us not stupid. They know very well what an uprising would do, they know that guerilla warfare is a no-win situation. And when your non-violent plan fails, when you have less than a precarious chance of victory, it will be far too late, as the moment has passed. All hopes for a free society will be forever lost due to a few thousand timid spirits who could not accept reality.
Absolute moronic bullshit spouted from the depths of paranoia, fear, and ignorance.
Why? Because you say so?
The truth is liberty is ripe for the picking. The minds of men are growing more complex, and ignorance is ceding to reason. Liberty is inevitable.
Very optimistic. Now, what do you propose to offer that entails making progress?
Time, ladies and gentlemen, is NOT on your side. It truly is a commodity which is quickly running out.
Time is on no one's side.
"Give me control over a nations currency, and I care not who makes its laws." -Who said that? I believe it was somebody who had time on his side.
Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia. I mean utilizing the application of force against tyranny.
Tyranny is a byproduct of the illogic of the idea of government. Fighting it achieves nothing in the end.
REALLY? So, we shouldn't resist tyranny. We shouldn't fight government because it will achieve nothing in the end? No wonder why you cannot gain supporters...
And I am not building an army, I merely suggested this rational, yet radical logical solution for the current problem.
Sorry, it is neither rational nor logical. It is a consequence of a faulty understanding of the problem at hand, and blames the proximate cause for the ultimate cause's problems.
Incorrect. The application of force is not illogical since the result of change will often times produce results. "Blaming" insinuates WORDS and inaction, as applied FORCE does not blame, it punishes...and more specifically, creates change and the opportunity for progress to be made.
I just don't see any point in discussing the futile attempt of trying to change the system by voting and picketing.
Yes, I can see how if one dismisses ideas out of hand because of preconcieved notions one would be led to this conclusion.
We must learn from our mistakes, or be destined to repeat them. For a person who carries around so much animosity for 'gubments', you sure do defend the democratic process a lot.
Sure, you can vote for the privilege of raising a militia, but it is counterproductive and doesn't make any sense. What I proposed to discuss is the actual action required to overthrow tyranny, not semantics and blind faith in democracy.
Your inability to grasp how one may successfully utilize the system at hand demonstrates your failure as a thinking individual.
Please teach me how to "utilize" the system, then? Perhaps I may direct you to a little cause we have been fighting for several years now: http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/#LatestNews
If you want true freedom in this lifetime, or any other for that matter -you must be willing to spill some blood.
Certainly I am. But your ill-conceived reasoning of what works and why leads you down a path of absolute insanity.
Again, you have been swayed by propaganda and decadence. You believe that a patriot is a hindrance to your precious cause. And, just as expected, once our cause succeeds, the timid and fearful will join...but by then it will cost NOTHING to be a patriot. Not my words, just some more ill-conceived reasoning, I suppose. ;)
Freedoms are sufferable, you cannot expect others to get out of your way simply because you claim to have moral superiority or just cause, without backing your proposal with the intention of force. Dictatorships and mobs do not part way for fanciful slogans and peaceful picketing. End of story.
Dismissing ideas is no way to get to the truth.
You should take some of your own advice.
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I think Grafton has a higher than normal percentage of FSP members. So it hasn't totally failed.
It also has a higher than normal percentage of FSP haters.
Does it outweigh the difference?
Pretty much. The FTP people pissed off a bunch of people in town.
I know I won't vote for any of them, or anything they would like to pass. Fuck them.
How could everything they would like to pass be bad?
I didn't say it was. This is personal. Small town politics, dude.
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I don't understand your incredible certainty. This anti-FSPism is the true religion seated at this discussion.
I probably know much more about the FSP than you. :P
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According to Denis Goddard 60 people could entirely shutdown the statists in NH (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=19285.msg356515#msg356515).
Oh, well if Dennis says so, then it must be true. (sarcasm) Yet, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's wait and see, shall we?
I'm a doucebagger; you should not listen to what I say :P
Go to the NH State website yourself and look at the roll call votes:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ie/rollcall/rollcallsearch.asp
It is a rare, rare thing when a really serious liberty issue passes or is killed by more than ~30 votes. If 60 non-asshole people run credible campaigns, it is not unreasonable that 30-40 of them could win. And that's all we'd need. Not because I say so, but because of the freakin' math. Check it yourself.
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How is any of that the same, Furby? A personal, childish attack against me gets compared to my several posts which include DIRECT RESPONSES (you just copied the swear words) to the topic being discussed. The ONLY direct "attack" was to Shaw -and even he can agree right here in this thread that it was all in good humor. Look at his response -returned in kind.
Personal attacks are personal attacks, even if you don't direct them at one specific person. Any time someone tries to argue against an idea by claiming something about the people who believe that idea, they have failed.
You see, FURBY -I simply don't resort to personally attacking the individual while ignoring the topic of discussion or directed question.
This is true. Most of your posts are well-reasoned, well-written and contain valid points. I may disagree with some of them, but that's what civilized people do - disagree.
However, when your posts shift from arguing against an idea to arguing against the person or people who believe that idea, it does nothing but hurt your argument. It doesn't convince the person you're talking to. It doesn't convince other people who are reading the thread. It just makes you look like an asshole. You would convince far, far more people if you laid off the personal attacks.
And so, you research for what must have been quite a while, copy every swear word and phrase which catches your eye
Nah, barely took any time at all. Click your name, click the "most recent posts" link, scan through them. There were only 2 or 3 pages of recent ones. Click Quote on any posts where you attack someone, then copy and paste that.
and then use all of that as an attempt to justify the actions of Goddard
Now you're putting words into my mouth. I didn't even mention Denis in any of my posts.
The motivation for my post was that you seem to have no problem attacking other people or groups of people during a debate, but when Denis did the same to you, you cried foul.
Note that I'm not saying I support Denis - I think his personal attacks were just as childish and stupid as yours. The difference is that you tried to claim that personal attacks were off-limits, hours after you made personal attacks of your own.
who DIRECTLY AVOIDED the topic in a childish manner and instead -INSTEAD, chose to resort to personal attacks and insults.
Here's the posts of his where he attacked you:
Meanwhile, Brokor, BJ, and the rest and keep masturbating for freedom wherever they are. Have fun with yourselves. ;)
c) by "fighting force", you mean you are jacking ferociously to a bunch of free pr0n sites
Or, does your idea of "activism" consist of hitting the refresh button on pornotube.com ?
What is being discussed is my proposal, the idea.
... of masturbating non-stop until you find Freedom?
And here's where he was talking about the subject at hand:
Theory dictates action.
^this
The time for talk has ended, it is no longer free. The time to act is now. If you want to change this tyrannous government, then mobilize a fighting force or shut the hell up already.
From this, I assume either:
a) by "fighting force" you mean, pro-liberty candidates, lobbyists, and organizations -- all of which we have, and they're growing quickly, in NH -- and you're personally starting a bunch of 'em
b) you mean exactly what you say by "fighting force", and you are in the process of arming a private militia with the intent to kill a bunch of people
Whichever it is, I am truly impressed. No. Really.
Goddard, by "fighting force" I mean a well armed and prepared militia.
Are you doing fuck-all about it, then? Maybe... supporting the reinstatement of a people's militia?
http://generalcourt.org/bills/2008/hb1431
AN ACT establishing a permanent state defense force.
...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewHampshireStateGuardStudyGroup
The membership of the New Hampshire State Guard pledges to serve and defend the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire as well as the Constitution for these United States of America against all enemies whether they are foreign or domestic.
That's hardly avoiding the subject. Like I said, I don't support Denis' personal attacks either. But he was doing to exact same thing you do - arguing about something, and throwing in a few personal jabs here and there.
I always use language, Furby. Pretty muyh every post I make has some kind of SHOCKING revelation. The ONLY PERSONALLY directed language in all the misquoted excerpt you posted that is PERSONAL is to Shaw -and delivered while being completely involved with the DISCUSSION.
Like I said before, personal attacks don't have to be "Joe Schmoe is an idiot for believing X." Things like "anyone who believes X is an idiot" are also personal attacks.
In the posts I quoted, you referred to various people as "hippies", "timid shits", "swordfucked pieholes" (that one is quite creative), "cocksuckers", and "completely insane pencil nibbling asswarts". If these weren't personal attacks, what were they?
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Ack, too many quotations. Fuck, dude.
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Yeah. Furby, dude...you are reading into this shit too much. I have dealt with these same tactics for years with the same result. If I so much as swear once or call somebody a shitslurpie -all of my information is automatically discredited and I wind up at the same level as the others who avoid questions and attack the individual. This game gets old after a while, Furby.
I can very easily have a mature discussion, but we all know that is impossible here, so we might as well have some cheap vulgar fun. It keeps me from getting irate, at least. I remember making some very nice threads before and had Markuzik and Shaw and a couple of others join in some rational, calm debate. Ultimately, it always leads to frustration and childish antics because ONE person wants to throw a shit bomb.
It doesn't matter, Furby. If there is a valid point, I will make it. If another has realistically proven a point, I will admit it. And if we get into an opinion war -I will inform you of how stupid your opinions are and leave. (Of course the title of this thread is FSP Opinions) Like I said...who cares? It's a forum, not a special olympics competition...even though it can become twice as retarded.
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I'm a doucebagger
I'm gunna quote you on that. :P
Go to the NH State website yourself and look at the roll call votes:
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ie/rollcall/rollcallsearch.asp
It is a rare, rare thing when a really serious liberty issue passes or is killed by more than ~30 votes. If 60 non-asshole people run credible campaigns, it is not unreasonable that 30-40 of them could win. And that's all we'd need. Not because I say so, but because of the freakin' math. Check it yourself.
Even if yall could get 30-40 elected at the state level, that would not "entirely shutdown the statists in NH". That is crazy talk.
Most stuff is done at the local Town/City level in NH.
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Even if yall could get 30-40 elected at the state level, that would not "entirely shutdown the statists in NH". That is crazy talk.
Most stuff is done at the local Town/City level in NH.
That's why the free town project is also crucial.
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It is a rare, rare thing when a really serious liberty issue passes or is killed by more than ~30 votes. If 60 non-asshole people run credible campaigns, it is not unreasonable that 30-40 of them could win. And that's all we'd need. Not because I say so, but because of the freakin' math. Check it yourself.
That's assuming you replaced only the people who voted "badly". So the idea is you go in and replace an anti-liberty person in a presumably anti-liberty leaning district (after all, residents voted in that anti-liberty person before). Now just repeat 30-40 times. Any of the ones you replace who would have voted the way you wanted (nearly half) don't count for this particular assumption. I realize that it's probably not good/bad, pro-liberty/anti-liberty in a nice clear line for every single vote and every representative. A Republican might vote "badly" on prohibition and "well" on taxes and vice versa for a Dem, but the math still applies when you're talking about swing votes. I'd say you need easily twice as many as you're estimating to have the kind of impact you're claiming.
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Dale has a good point. Maybe the answer is b/t Denis and Dale.