FOR FSP Signers: You know who Debra Ricketts is? (don't look it up, just answer)

No Idea.

19 (61.3%)

Who cares?

5 (16.1%)

I think I may have heard her name.

3 (9.7%)

Yes, I know of her.

4 (12.9%)

Yes, I know her personally.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[One two three]

First I've heard of her by name; certainly not the first person to be all pissy because 20,000 libertarians could not be found by Sept 2006 to move to NH and is taking it out on the FSP.

I see a whole lot of bitching from that faction, not a whole lot of getting shit done.
For the record, I see precious little "getting shit done" from the FSP Board of Directors, either.

I do see a hell of a lot of stuff happening by the activists in NH. I know there are activists doing "things" all over the world, but I can really see the synergistic effects here in NH.

Case in point, last weekend I was handing out FSP flyers in Boston, to the people going to their "end the MA income tax" rally. One of the people there told me his dream was to get a FIJA bill introduced into the legislature. I told him in NH we put up that bill every 2 years, and sometimes it passes the House, and it's pretty much a matter of time before it passes the Senate, and a group of people in at least 1 town (maybe more than that) pass out FIJA literature to jurors on a weekly basis.

It's the difference between one person yelling into the wind, vs. a movement.

That happens in Keene every month (not week) because that is why people are called.  That's what Ian said and it makes sense.

About the 20,000 number.  The FSP contacted everyone with an email address after we did not reach the not set in stone goal of 20,000 and told people that they could opt out because the FSP did not reach an unofficial goal.  So these people were contacted (at least the people who wanted to be contacted) and given a chance to remove their number from the counter.

[blackie]

Blackie, your quote from Sorens is still meaningless... even repeated in video form. So, the FSP 'folded into another form'... so what? Big deal...

So why did the FSP edit that out of the press conf. video hosted on their site?

[Johnson]

... because it's not relevant anymore? 




IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!!  TINFOIL!!!! WHERE'S MY TINFOIL!!!!!!!!?????

[Johnson]

also, just for continuity, here are some other threads about this topic...

Some other threads related to this topic:
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=24331.0
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=24190.0

[blackie]

... because it's not relevant anymore? 

I guess it was also not relevant before sept. 2006, because it was edited out in 2004.

[Johnson]

Yup, pretty much. Now you are figuring it out. It was never really relevant.

[sillyperson]

People want to piss and moan that Somebody Else screwed up their libertopia.
They don't have a definite, specific plan to get to libertopia, much less have they actually rolled up their sleeves and done shit about it.

[blackie]

Like he said, many if not MOST signers committed regardless of any 2006 deadline

And he got that "info" from a member survey conducted concomitantly with the state vote.

http://freestateproject.org/news/releases/nhrelease

But as Condon notes, "The member survey shows that 53% of members plan to move within three years, not waiting for the 20,000-member benchmark."

So according to that, more than half of the signers should be in NH by now.

[sillyperson]

Blackie, smoke a blunt and mellow out, man.

[blackie]

NEVER!

WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE!

[fatcat]

People want to piss and moan that Somebody Else screwed up their libertopia.
They don't have a definite, specific plan to get to libertopia, much less have they actually rolled up their sleeves and done shit about it.

No?

Even with 20,000 the hope of achieving 'libertopia' in New Hampshire was dubious.

with <2000 its almost laughable, especially in light of the excessive optimism/denial displayed by many NH liberty supporters.


The most that can realistically be hoped for is to keep NH in the top 5 US states in terms of liberty. If things go exceedingly well I could maybe see a slight decrease in the total tax burden and a small increase in personal liberty over the next 10 years, although even if this happens I can see increases in federal government canceling this out, although obviously some of those excesses are easier to avoid, some much harder (aka inflation tax).


The sheer arrogance of NH libers when they assume that anyone not following the one true path to liberty must be lazy/unprincipled/cowards/aimless, regardless of the specific views of the person in question. I've seen this attitude displayed in the majority of discussion surrounding NH, and yet at the same time they will claim that no such insulting generalization takes place.

For all you NH supporters who are so quick to insult any conflicting voices, perhaps you could stop claiming to know that a person has no other ideas and is lazy/unprincipled/not as good as yourself [take your pick], at least before you actually hear their arguments. Some of us actually don't support NH liberty because they have legitimate gripes with the aims/movement, and some actually have ideas of what might be a better idea .

Dennis its a shame to see you resort to such pale caricatures when you usually have such a stellar record of logical and respectful discourse.

They don't have a definite, specific plan

Wrong.

much less have they actually rolled up their sleeves and done shit about it.

Wronger.

[Johnson]

Way to back up your points (supposed rebuttals) with examples. A well crafted 'argument' if I've ever seen one.

You could have just called him a wrongy wronghead and been done, no need for the whole long paragraph.

[Taors]

Way to back up your points (supposed rebuttals) with examples. A well crafted 'argument' if I've ever seen one.

You could have just called him a wrongy wronghead and been done, no need for the whole long paragraph.

He has, many, many times. Read some of his other posts.

[AntonLee]

I'm just curious, and of course, you'll probably take this as an insult like usual, but if you say that Denis is "wrong" about saying "they don't have a definite, specific plan"

and "wronger" about him saying "much less have they actually rolled up their sleeves and done shit about it.

what is your specific plan?  Do you plan on another country?  Perhaps one of the "top 5 countries for liberty?"  If anyone associated with the FSP is wrong. . .what would be right IN YOUR opinion.  Show us the light, our sad and misguided souls would love to know the answer.

and then part two, would be the question of what YOU'VE done for liberty?  You see, you could possibly have done more than someone moving to NH for liberty, it's just an uprooting of one's life.  For better or worse in their own personal lives is the individual's decision.  I don't know if Blackie was a native or moved as part of the project or what. . .but it seems he's not happy about doing so.  In his life, it seems he would call that a failure (or a learning experience if you want to shine shit).  I personally don't know what you might consider "rolling up their sleeves" and doing shit.  Putting up signs, lobbying your congress critters to plead for more freedom, amping FTL, walking around with masks with "V" on them, civil disobedience, hell, even talking to people about liberty.

If you've rolled up your sleeves and done something, I'm curious about what that has been.  If you ask me, I've talked to everyone I know about liberty, I've held signs, purchased signs, put up signs, lobbied my congress, etc.  It's not much, I know.  . . and I don't really count talking on the FTL BBS as doing something for liberty.  

Now, before you start in on the "woe is me, they're attacking me illogically" schtick again. . . I am not calling you lazy/unprincipled/cowardly/aimless. . . I'm simply, and finally, asking you to let me know.  If you don't have a definite plan, that's cool. . . who does.   Goals are changeable, god knows I change my goals to fit a long term goal quite often.  Things happen quite often in one's life that make that a necessity.  I'm not asking you to show respect to anyone moving as part of the FSP, that would be stupid.    

I understand that these are personal questions.  You might end up replying that I'm in denial, being illogical.  It's the same old argument just like all those illogical Freestaters use against you.  What I'm pleading with you, is that if you KNOW the FSP is wrong. . . what do YOU consider right.  I'm looking for your opinion.  I know you can't possibly have all the answers, but it would be interesting to see what it is that YOU think WOULD work.

there's something different here.  Something I don't have in my daily life as it stands now.  Sunrises over Hampton Beach, the look of the clouds settling into the White Mountains while standing above them.  The towering waterfalls (flumes) are particularly awesome to me.  I enjoy the smell of the air in the fall in NH, it's cleaner.  It's quieter.  The people are much friendlier than where it is that I live. . . and seeing as it's not far at all. . . seems uncanny to everyone even myself.

That's why I'm moving.  That's why I was always moving.  I want a life worth living instead of the life everyone else seems to think I should have.  In the end, I may not even be much of an activist. . . up in the mountains if I'm lucky.  You would like to paint all Freestaters as illogical for wanting NH to be our libertopia.  For me, it's my personal utopia.  No extreme pessimism from a BBS will stop that.

[fatcat]

<-------- majorly prickish post warning ---------->

I'm just curious, and of course, you'll probably take this as an insult like usual, but if you say that Denis is "wrong" about saying "they don't have a definite, specific plan"

and "wronger" about him saying "much less have they actually rolled up their sleeves and done shit about it.

what is your specific plan?  Do you plan on another country?  Perhaps one of the "top 5 countries for liberty?"  If anyone associated with the FSP is wrong. . .what would be right IN YOUR opinion.  Show us the light, our sad and misguided souls would love to know the answer.

and then part two, would be the question of what YOU'VE done for liberty?  You see, you could possibly have done more than someone moving to NH for liberty, it's just an uprooting of one's life.  For better or worse in their own personal lives is the individual's decision.  I don't know if Blackie was a native or moved as part of the project or what. . .but it seems he's not happy about doing so.  In his life, it seems he would call that a failure (or a learning experience if you want to shine shit).  I personally don't know what you might consider "rolling up their sleeves" and doing shit.  Putting up signs, lobbying your congress critters to plead for more freedom, amping FTL, walking around with masks with "V" on them, civil disobedience, hell, even talking to people about liberty.

If you've rolled up your sleeves and done something, I'm curious about what that has been.  If you ask me, I've talked to everyone I know about liberty, I've held signs, purchased signs, put up signs, lobbied my congress, etc.  It's not much, I know.  . . and I don't really count talking on the FTL BBS as doing something for liberty.  

Now, before you start in on the "woe is me, they're attacking me illogically" schtick again. . . I am not calling you lazy/unprincipled/cowardly/aimless. . . I'm simply, and finally, asking you to let me know.  If you don't have a definite plan, that's cool. . . who does.   Goals are changeable, god knows I change my goals to fit a long term goal quite often.  Things happen quite often in one's life that make that a necessity.  I'm not asking you to show respect to anyone moving as part of the FSP, that would be stupid.    

I understand that these are personal questions.  You might end up replying that I'm in denial, being illogical.  It's the same old argument just like all those illogical Freestaters use against you.  What I'm pleading with you, is that if you KNOW the FSP is wrong. . . what do YOU consider right.  I'm looking for your opinion.  I know you can't possibly have all the answers, but it would be interesting to see what it is that YOU think WOULD work.

you just fucking proved my point more than I could ever have hoped for

The fact that I've stated multiple times the answers to all these questions might be enough to condemn you for attacking my "well crafted argument", but the fact you have actually responded to some of the threads I discussed these things in takes the fucking cake

what is your specific plan?  Do you plan on another country?  Perhaps one of the "top 5 countries for liberty?"  If anyone associated with the FSP is wrong. . .what would be right IN YOUR opinion.  Show us the light, our sad and misguided souls would love to know the answer.

If you had taken even the most tangential interest in what I had written on this matter then you could answer all those questions yourself.

Now maybe I'm just to long winded and boring to pay attention to for any considerable period of time, thats fine, just don't pretend this is a real discussion when you can't even pick up the vaguest details of my viewpoint after multiple pages/threads of discussion on the matter.

Now usually I wouldn't be such a dick and not just answer your questions, but since you've already ignored and misrepresented what I have said so much already, fuck it, I'm not here to win friends.

And quit fucking misrepresenting my position

"If anyone associated with the FSP is wrong."

Never said that. I'm not even going to bother explaining why that is, and why I actually think its a good idea for some people to move to New hampshire, as its pretty clear your interest is solely in justifying your position and not in actually having a rational look what other peoples viewpoint is.

If you go back and read some of the threads I answered nearly all of your questions in, and come back with an apology, and maybe a muffin basket, I'll think about actually having a discussion with you. But so far you've not payed attention to what I've said in every discussion we've had, and have made multiple false claims about my position even after I correct you, so I'm pretty sure you don't give a shit about discussing things properly, much less give a shit about what my opinion on you is, so go ahead and shrug this shit off and make whatever clever comments you have to make.

I'm looking for your opinion.