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Poll

Does the fetus (unborn human being) have any natural rights?  

Right not to be evicted (all abortion banned).
- 2 (12.5%)
Right to free exit - from conception
- 2 (12.5%)
Right to free exit - after 1 week
- 1 (6.3%)
Right to free exit - after 1+ month
- 0 (0%)
Right to free exit - after 3+ months
- 1 (6.3%)
Right to free exit - after 6+ months
- 2 (12.5%)
No rights at all.
- 8 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 9


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Author Topic: Fetal "right to free exit"  (Read 7232 times)

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Alex Libman 14

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Fetal "right to free exit"
« on: July 15, 2009, 12:05:25 PM »

I am 100% pro-choice (i.e. no term limits), but I agree with the anti-choicers (aka "pro-lifers") on a few of their points.  First of all, I agree morally and pragmatically that abortion is undesirable and that higher birth rates should be encouraged, but this thread is about a purely legalistic point of view.

I agree with them on the issue of parental notification, because unemancipated minors do not have the full right to self-ownership.  I also agree with them that a fetus is technically a human being, and that deliberately killing it against the will of the mother (which happens millions of times a year in Commie China) constitutes something very close to murder.

Whether the fetus has a right to life in of itself has been a moot point because it clearly doesn't have the right to "rent" its mother's body against the will of its mother's mind, which is the owner of that body.  From that point of view abortion isn't murder even if the fetus does have a negative right to life, it's merely an eviction.  Sure, after a certain point abortion involves destroying the fetus before it leaves the body, but it's clearly not murder if there is no scientifically-feasible way to save that fetus in absence of it's host, at least not yet.  But what if there was?

Imagine if it was possible to transplant a fetus up to a certain post-conception age from one woman to another, so that the recipient could carry its pregnancy to term, or if it was possible to keep a fetus only a few months old on artificial life support until it matures...  With that possibility, the situation of the fetus would become comparable to that of a survivor of a plane crash on your property!  Would those technological innovations create an obligation for the mother to facilitate the fetii's "right to free exit" (by presumed consent), thus making abortion "murder", even from the rational libertarian point of view?

Discusss.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 12:22:13 PM by Alex Libman 2012 »
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 12:11:15 PM »

Is pulling out considered murder?
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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 12:25:39 PM »

Not according to any law or dogma that I've ever heard of.

Abortion, on the other hand, does destroy a human being with a unique DNA.
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fatcat

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 12:31:38 PM »

Not according to any law or dogma that I've ever heard of.

Abortion, on the other hand, does destroy a human being with a unique DNA.

What does "unique" DNA have to do with shit?

Are identical twins less valuable because they don't have unique DNA?
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 12:32:36 PM »

I think it would be ridiculous for someone to decide to get an abortion like a week or month before birth. You got time to decide. I personally dont like abortion however I would never tell another they couldn't make that choice.

I dont see why the parents should have to be notified. It's none of there business.
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libertylover

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 01:39:03 PM »

The legal standard whereby a person can be convicted of double homicide on a pregnant woman is after 24 weeks of gestation. There are two reasons that fetuses of 24 weeks gestation are given this status.  There is a chance of survival outside of the womb and fully functioning brain wave activity.   I think that a woman has had 24 weeks to make a choice to terminate a pregnancy and to wait til after the 24th weeks is murder.   Otherwise the penalties for causing a woman to terminate a 24 week plus pregnancy due to an assault could no longer be considered murder.

This is why I voted for right to free exit at the closest answer to 24 weeks which was 6 months when technically it is considered 5 months.  Not every month of pregnancy consists of 4 weeks.  The total gestation is 40 weeks which would be 10 months if the months consisted of even 4 week intervals.

I will be very happy when technology is advanced enough to keep all unwanted fetuses alive and healthy so they can be adopted.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 01:43:45 PM by libertylover »
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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 02:32:34 PM »

What does "unique" DNA have to do with shit?

Are identical twins less valuable because they don't have unique DNA?

I was pointing out one of the criteria for identifying a distinct entity in biology, there are of course others.  This answers the question of what makes a fetus separate from its parents, the sperm and the egg.  What makes identical twins or clones distinct from each-other is the capacity for independent thought.  (I have defended the pro-choice position in great depth before, including issues like conjoined / ingrown twins, chimeras, parahumans, etc - so we can skip the obvious.)

The question asked by this thread is what would be the legal difference between a fetus and a physically-autonomous (born) baby in a world where a fetus can be surgically extracted from the mother and kept alive independently of her, both physically and financially.

I believe that a (born) baby has both a negative and a positive right to life (but not liberty or property until legal emancipation).  The negative right to life is obvious: the killing of any human being, regardless of age, represents a tremendous competitive disadvantage to a society (evolutionary pragmatism's theory of human rights).  The positive right to life is more controversial: do the parents have an obligation to take care of their child so that it at least doesn't starve or freeze to death?  I believe there is a requirement for a positive "right to emancipation" - the parents can do pretty much whatever they wish, but they cannot kill, mentally incapacitate, or isolate the child that would make it impossible for him to sue for emancipation, or have someone else sue on his behalf.  That, in my opinion, creates the obligation for the parents to at least announce publicly that their child will die unless someone helps them.  Since there's an ever-growing over-abundance of people in this world who would be willing and able to keep a child from starving, depriving a child of those very basic needs is like depriving him of air through suffocation - that is murder.

None of this would currently apply to a fetus, because -- whether it has the right to life or not -- the fetus is nonetheless physically dependent on the body which it does not own.  But what if new technologies changed that - what if saving the life of an unwanted fetus was nearly as manageable as saving the life of an unwanted baby after it is born?


[...]  I dont see why the parents should have to be notified. It's none of there business.

Yes, all medical decisions of their dependents are their business.

Human beings are born without the capacity to reason and act rationally - someone must take care of them until they can be expected to pull their own weight economically and take responsibility for their actions.  This can happen upon reaching a certain default age (i.e. 18, presuming they aren't diagnosed with a serious-enough mental illness), or prematurely through a legal process.

If a pregnant girl can convince a jury that she is capable of being emancipated, or that her guardianship should be transferred to someone else, then her parents will no longer have a say.  Until that happens, they are in control, and she has no rights except the two I've mentioned: the right to life and the right to emancipation.  If her parents want to force her to pray to Allah five times a day, or to get married (even though this marriage would have to be validated or become null and void after her emancipation), or keep her from getting an abortion - that is their right as her parents.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 02:51:12 PM by Alex Libman 2012 »
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rabidfurby

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 08:47:56 PM »

You have a very interesting new strategy for attention-whoring.
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 08:58:50 PM »

Don't you think that'll create a black market of possible pill abortions or seeking other means to get an abortion in confidentiality. Emancipation isn't so easy to obtain. Why should you be forced to rely on the judgment of others?
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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 09:27:40 PM »

You have a very interesting new strategy for attention-whoring.

Is this your first time using an Internet forum?


Don't you think that'll create a black market of possible pill abortions or seeking other means to get an abortion in confidentiality.

Of course it will, just like laws against murder create a black market in assassins.


Emancipation isn't so easy to obtain.

Now - of course not, because of the government red tape.  In a free society, would there be enough people willing to help minors escape bad homes?  I think so, and with plenty of competing options for the minor in question to choose from.  All human beings have value, and in a capitalist society all value-enhancing operations are beneficial.

I forget the exact term for this hypothetical procedure, but I remember reading a sci-fi book called The Sparrow where one of the characters is a young woman programmer (an artificial intelligence expert like me) who was a homeless child prostitute until a broker rescued her off the streets by giving her a loan - she gets free boarding and education through college, and she is obligated to pay them a fraction of her future salary for life (or for X years, or up to a certain amount).  With programs like that, world-wide child poverty could be eradicated in one generation!


Why should you be forced to rely on the judgment of others?

You mean jury trials?  The imperfection of jury trials is one of the more complicated issues a common law system, including a decentralized Anarcho-Capitalist one, would need to overcome.  (See also Rothbard's Ethics of Liberty.)  Better ideas are...  out there...
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 09:30:24 PM »

So if it will create a black market then why? It would just do more harm then good.

Was your question meant for a libertarian society? Cuz my thought is whats best for now. Even so how can a kid or teenager prove they are in a broken home? It's not always that easy.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 09:37:11 PM by Hideaki »
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Alex Libman 14

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 09:47:00 PM »

Does enforcement of other natural rights (punishing theft, abduction, rape, murder, and so on) do more harm than good?

To make your argument against the fetal right to "free exit", you would either have to disprove that such a right exists for all human beings, or prove how a fetus is different from an autonomous human being.  Consider the following two scenarios:

  • You own some property in the woods, and one day you find that a lost child has wandered onto your property and stepped into a bear trap, which broke his leg and he needs medical help fast or he'll bleed to death.  You become aware of the situation.  That child didn't mean to go on your property.  Do you have any obligation to provide a right to free exit - if not to help the child yourself then at least to notify the public of this situation and let a medical team enter your property and take the child to safety?

  • You (imagine you're female) become pregnant.  You now have an unborn fetus trapped on your property (inside your body).  Do you have the same obligation to provide a right to free exit?  That would entail at least notifying the public that you have a fetus that needs rescuing, and complying with the "free exit" if/when there'll be someone willing to pay for that hypothetical transfer of that fetus onto a life support system.
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 09:55:32 PM »

I'm not making an argument for or against abortion. I was making the argument against forcing the doctor to give the info to the parents. If the daughter felt she couldn't go to a doctor what would stop her from just grabbing the nearest coat hanger? I dont think abortion is right but I'm not gonna tell anyone else what they can or can't do.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:25:34 PM by Hideaki »
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Jíraxis 270145

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2009, 12:06:42 AM »

Is pulling out considered murder?

Yahweh doesnít like it about as much. Onan.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 12:09:12 AM by Jíraxis 270145 »
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Libertarianssuck

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Re: Fetal "right to free exit"
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2009, 12:08:04 AM »

good thing i dont put my faith in him
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