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Poll

Well, do they...PUNK?

Yes, they are self evident.
No, they're a fantasy.
Once we claim them, they come into existence.
Only as far as we defend them.
Only as far as others respect them.

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Author Topic: DO RIGHTS EXIST?  (Read 26240 times)

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Dylboz

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2006, 04:53:56 PM »

Quote
or you could rely on yourself to do the job. If the defense of your rights runs up against another person's assertion of theirs, then your DRO's will work it out or you can voluntarily choose an arbitrator, or you can fight it out in the street

in otherwords no rules (voluntary or otherwise) but the law of the jungle...

if I voluntarily consent to a rule and then am judged (by whom?) to be in violation yet don't consent - it is law of the jungle time.

You just revealed yourself for the naked statist you are. Do you really think that your economic rent funded government with it's "justified" use of force is anything but the law of the jungle? Has any state ever succeeded in justly protecting anyone's rights? Has it ever been anything other than an organized gang of murderous thugs extorting money, regardless of the justification, at gunpoint? Is there anything special about the people in government that makes them incorruptable and moraly infallible? The answer is no, and yours would be the same miserable failure they all are, despite your sophistic rhetorical diahrrea to the contrary.

At it's root, life often IS the "law of the jungle." When some one is desperate enough, they'll violate your rights, regardless of the institutions or social conventions against it, if they truly believe their potential gain is worth the risk. That is why I take my own self-defense seriously, I am responsible for myself and I don't want to be victimized. I can't just scream out "this man is violating my right to self-ownership!" and expect John Locke to pop in and save me in the name of his proviso. Protecting myself, and my rights, is ultimately my responsibility. If you read the introductory post I wrote in this thread, you'll see where I stand on the idea of rights.

Beyond the question of violence, peaceful people who respect each other's rights can have their disputes resolved by a voluntarily chosen third party or by their respective legal representatives under the DRO model. Smarter, more eloquent men have thoroughly elucidated the concept elsewhere, but you could start here:

The Stateless Society: An Examination of Alternatives

Enjoy. You need a break from copying and pasting stuff into this bbs.
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Religion is metaphysical statism. I will be ruled by no man on earth, nor by any god in heaven.

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Dylboznia

mikehz

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2006, 06:34:32 PM »



in otherwords no rules (voluntary or otherwise) but the law of the jungle...

if I voluntarily consent to a rule and then am judged (by whom?) to be in violation yet don't consent - it is law of the jungle time.

Well, law of the rain forest, maybe.
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theodorelogan

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2006, 07:02:12 PM »

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A right refers to something to which one is entitled. Even when your rights are violated (such as when someone assaults you or steals your things) you still retain the entitlement to those things.

You are just chaning the word right to entitlemen, but making the xact same argumentt.  In what way are you entitled to somehting if you do not have it?
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Go figure...

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Dylboz

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2006, 07:10:13 PM »



in otherwords no rules (voluntary or otherwise) but the law of the jungle...

if I voluntarily consent to a rule and then am judged (by whom?) to be in violation yet don't consent - it is law of the jungle time.

Well, law of the rain forest, maybe.

Just to clarify, BT, the explicit answer to your specific question is in the link I posted. As well as many others you might have about how Ancapistan would operate.
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Religion is metaphysical statism. I will be ruled by no man on earth, nor by any god in heaven.

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Dylboznia

theodorelogan

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2006, 08:13:09 PM »

Quote
in otherwords no rules (voluntary or otherwise) but the law of the jungle...

if I voluntarily consent to a rule and then am judged (by whom?) to be in violation yet don't consent - it is law of the jungle time.

Do you think that the world does not work this way?  Do "rights" magically jump out and stop people from harming you or something?
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Go figure...

RAD!

Santiago Johimbe

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2006, 08:58:31 PM »

Quote
or you could rely on yourself to do the job. If the defense of your rights runs up against another person's assertion of theirs, then your DRO's will work it out or you can voluntarily choose an arbitrator, or you can fight it out in the street

in otherwords no rules (voluntary or otherwise) but the law of the jungle...

if I voluntarily consent to a rule and then am judged (by whom?) to be in violation yet don't consent - it is law of the jungle time.

You consent and then you don't consent? Like John Kerry?
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BenTucker

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2006, 09:06:11 PM »

Quote
Do you really think that your economic rent funded government with it's "justified" use of force is anything but the law of the jungle?

the economic rent goes to your neighbors not the government...

the government is rightfully using force to protect those individuals being excluded to their absolute right to the fruits of their labor.
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2006, 09:16:50 PM »

Quote
Do you really think that your economic rent funded government with it's "justified" use of force is anything but the law of the jungle?

the economic rent goes to your neighbors not the government...

the government is rightfully using force to protect those individuals being excluded to their absolute right to the fruits of their labor.

"Pay your taxes or we'll kill you"
How wonderfully libertarian.
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BenTucker

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2006, 10:21:22 PM »

Quote
Do you really think that your economic rent funded government with it's "justified" use of force is anything but the law of the jungle?

the economic rent goes to your neighbors not the government...

the government is rightfully using force to protect those individuals being excluded to their absolute right to the fruits of their labor.

"Pay your taxes or we'll kill you"
How wonderfully libertarian.


what is the difference in a libertarian anarchy?

pay your economic rent or we will kill you?
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mikehz

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2006, 10:39:31 PM »

the economic rent goes to your neighbors not the government...

the government is rightfully using force to protect those individuals being excluded to their absolute right to the fruits of their labor.

With a hefty handling charge, of course. Those charge with stealing the "economic rent" always manage to siphon off a good portion for themselves.

Sort of like how Tony Soprano collects his "economic rent."
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BenTucker

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2006, 10:47:08 PM »

the economic rent goes to your neighbors not the government...

the government is rightfully using force to protect those individuals being excluded to their absolute right to the fruits of their labor.

With a hefty handling charge, of course. Those charge with stealing the "economic rent" always manage to siphon off a good portion for themselves.

Sort of like how Tony Soprano collects his "economic rent."

why wouldn't people willingly share the economic rent with their neighbors if they new it would strengthen their own property rights to their labor when their neighbors shared with them?
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Santiago Johimbe

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2006, 11:43:48 PM »

Quote
Do you really think that your economic rent funded government with it's "justified" use of force is anything but the law of the jungle?

the economic rent goes to your neighbors not the government...

the government is rightfully using force to protect those individuals being excluded to their absolute right to the fruits of their labor.

"Pay your taxes or we'll kill you"
How wonderfully libertarian.


what is the difference in a libertarian anarchy?

pay your economic rent or we will kill you?

Hey, I can deal with people without having a big fat government do it for me.
Perpetually unemployed cowards like you have to hide behind the skirt of your nanny state to
do it for you.
I'll lurk, and if you come up with anything new to add, I'll be here. Or maybe I'll just keep
lurking. I'm no good at this sort of thing and your idea of discourse is like hitting people with a fish.
A really stinky fish.
After slogging through all the threads you've cluttered up, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 12:04:24 AM by Santiago Johimbe »
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Kalnik

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2006, 12:01:11 AM »

the economic rent goes to your neighbors not the government...

the government is rightfully using force to protect those individuals being excluded to their absolute right to the fruits of their labor.

With a hefty handling charge, of course. Those charge with stealing the "economic rent" always manage to siphon off a good portion for themselves.

Sort of like how Tony Soprano collects his "economic rent."

why wouldn't people willingly share the economic rent with their neighbors if they new it would strengthen their own property rights to their labor when their neighbors shared with them?

Not only is your system entirely socialist, but you assume things way out of proportion as well.  I'm not going to pay someone else "economic rent" just because I could "strengthen my own property rights to my labor" by knowing that my neighbors will do the same.  That's your "radical equality" worldview kicking in.  You can't "strengthen" your property rights, just by knowing that your neighbor can, too.   

You also can't go one sentence without throwing 3 different unecessary ideas together at once.  I based, now, that you talk this way because you read too many old english-style written philosophies, such as your beloved John Locke.  Now what you say, instead of coming from your brain to out of your mouth, comes from your monitor, directly to the keyboard. 

Stop trying to act like you're unique and smart in some philosophically special way, your propaganda isn't working here.  You're using the same method, and expecting different results.  You are repetitiously repeating a message, in order to sway people's opinions.  I can think of no other reason why you would sit on this particular forum, for the longest amount of wasted time.
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mikehz

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2006, 12:01:33 AM »


why wouldn't people willingly share the economic rent with their neighbors if they new it would strengthen their own property rights to their labor when their neighbors shared with them?

Well, if you can con them into willingly handing over their money, that's one thing. Good luck with that!

In reality, it is done with guns and bloodshed.
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"Force always attracts men of low morality." Albert Einstein

ladyattis

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Re: DO RIGHTS EXIST?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2006, 12:06:05 AM »

Rights are simply moral propositions to which rational agents ensure their survival among similar agents. But, here is the kicker, mind and force are opposites. Morality ends where the gun begins. So, by that reasoning, rights are in part what you take as your own and what you don't take from others by force. That makes rights not a natural essence, but an epistemological one asserted in reason and protected by action.

-- Bridget
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