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Poll

What level of Education have you completed?

Have not Graduated Highschool
- 4 (2.3%)
Highschool or GED
- 17 (9.8%)
Attended College but have not Graduated
- 57 (32.8%)
2 Year College Degree
- 18 (10.3%)
4 Year College Degree
- 45 (25.9%)
Masters Degree
- 10 (5.7%)
Doctoral Degree
- 6 (3.4%)
Other Professional Degree (MD, LLB, ETC)
- 2 (1.1%)
Multiple Technical Certification(s) w/o HighSchool Diploma or GED
- 1 (0.6%)
Multiple Technical Certifications w/o College Degee
- 6 (3.4%)
Multiple Technical Certification(s) & 2yr Degree
- 0 (0%)
Multiple Technical Certification(s) & 4yr Degree
- 4 (2.3%)
Multple Degrees (In Different Fields of Study)
- 4 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Demographics - Education Level?  (Read 27059 times)

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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2008, 12:41:46 PM »

a traitor to his faith? Judaism has socialist principles built right into it...
How is Tzedakah socialist?  It's purely the opposite--voluntary charity.
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Johnson

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2008, 03:01:03 PM »

Oh, I see... voluntary means "obligated by law" now.

Did you even read?

...and ok... supposing it's not even a legal matter... which it very much seems to be according to jewish law, it's still built right into the religion in a fashion that says... if you don't do this, you will be denied Gehenom, or worse... you may be punished eternally... (depending of course on how strict your interpretation of the religion is, and how conservative you are)

Eh, I doubt you can change my opinion on this, because it seems pretty obvious to me that this religion is pushing self sacrifice in the same way that all religions do, and this one just happens to push a little harder to get people to give their property to the poor (rather than the church stealing it for themSELVES through manipulation)

Not accepting the truth, or ignoring this, isn't going to change it, but if that's what needs to happen to keep your world view unchallenged... go for it.
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Taors

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2008, 03:17:10 PM »

Johnson, you're kind of overlooking the fact that Judaism is a religion, and people can convert or leave it voluntarily. It is in no way 'socialist' because the people who convert agree to those laws when they do so.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2008, 03:17:42 PM »

Are you kidding? Jewish Law is not governmental.  You're insinuating that religious law is somehow comparable to governmental law which its not.  You're also insinuating that Jews believe in Hell and eternal damnation, neither of which are even a part of Judaism at all.  How is encouraging charity through religious obligation socialism?  That's obscene! 
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Johnson

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2008, 02:31:18 PM »

Johnson, you're kind of overlooking the fact that Judaism is a religion, and people can convert or leave it voluntarily.

Unless your mother happens to be Jewish. Then you are always Jewish, at least according to other Jewish people, no matter what you believe.
Also, assuming it's that simple, is lunacy. Ask any secular convert who lives in Israel....
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Johnson

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2008, 02:36:05 PM »

Are you kidding? Jewish Law is not governmental.  You're insinuating that religious law is somehow comparable to governmental law which its not.  You're also insinuating that Jews believe in Hell and eternal damnation, neither of which are even a part of Judaism at all.  How is encouraging charity through religious obligation socialism?  That's obscene! 

It's is absolutely COMPARABLE, or they wouldn't have called it a law. Yes, it's not enforced in the same fashion, but there certainly, depending on the situation, exists extreme amounts of pressure to follow these 'laws'.  Jews believe in an approximation of heaven, and believe that you can be refused entry. Jews, also DO have a version of eternal punishment for those they consider extremely evil... IE: Hitler would be a good example.
Also... I never said that it WAS socialism... I said SOCIALIST PRINCIPLES were built right into the religion... and I wonder... do you think if we polled the jewish community, that it would mirror the rest of the united states in being about 50/50 republican/democrat... or do you think there would be a slant to one side? HRMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why that might be...

I dunno... maybe if I wanted to bring up a more true example of socialism... I'd have mentioned the Kabbutz, but I guess that's sort of... more of an example of voluntary communism, but hey... you gotta start somewhere right?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 02:38:52 PM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2008, 05:35:57 PM »

Are you kidding? Jewish Law is not governmental.  You're insinuating that religious law is somehow comparable to governmental law which its not.  You're also insinuating that Jews believe in Hell and eternal damnation, neither of which are even a part of Judaism at all.  How is encouraging charity through religious obligation socialism?  That's obscene! 

It's is absolutely COMPARABLE, or they wouldn't have called it a law. Yes, it's not enforced in the same fashion, but there certainly, depending on the situation, exists extreme amounts of pressure to follow these 'laws'.  Jews believe in an approximation of heaven, and believe that you can be refused entry. Jews, also DO have a version of eternal punishment for those they consider extremely evil... IE: Hitler would be a good example.
Also... I never said that it WAS socialism... I said SOCIALIST PRINCIPLES were built right into the religion... and I wonder... do you think if we polled the jewish community, that it would mirror the rest of the united states in being about 50/50 republican/democrat... or do you think there would be a slant to one side? HRMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why that might be...

I dunno... maybe if I wanted to bring up a more true example of socialism... I'd have mentioned the Kabbutz, but I guess that's sort of... more of an example of voluntary communism, but hey... you gotta start somewhere right?
Giving voluntarily to charity is socialism?  Have you noticed that the only example of working communism is the Kibbutz system which also is totally voluntary?  And no if you don't want to consider yourself Jewish nobody's going to force you to.

Jews do not believe in Hell or eternal damnation.  Most of us believe you have one life to live and at the end of it you go back into the ground so you better live a good life this time because its the only chance you've got.  You will NEVER hear a Rabbi giving a sermon on getting into Heaven or Hell and most Jews don't even believe that you go to Heaven after you die either, although some small sects take a slightly different interpretation on one line of the Torah that suggests that EVERYONE goes to Heaven or some pie in the sky after death, but most Jews don't see it that way. 

From your description of what makes a religion socialist, I guess ALL religions are socialist.  :?
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Johnson

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2008, 06:01:02 PM »

From your description of what makes a religion socialist, I guess ALL religions are socialist.  :?

I think pressuring people into giving to charity for any reason is a degree of a socialist mentality... yes. I definitely don't think it's right to guilt, or pressure, or in any other way attempt to manipulate someone into feeling bad about producing, and trying to make them feel that they NEED to support anyone but themselves. I think Charity is a great thing, and a wonderful virtue... I think pressuring someone into charity is vile.

I also think that jewfaq.org disagrees with some of the claims you are making here.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 06:02:47 PM by Johnson »
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2008, 06:36:08 PM »

From your description of what makes a religion socialist, I guess ALL religions are socialist.  :?

I think pressuring people into giving to charity for any reason is a degree of a socialist mentality... yes. I definitely don't think it's right to guilt, or pressure, or in any other way attempt to manipulate someone into feeling bad about producing, and trying to make them feel that they NEED to support anyone but themselves. I think Charity is a great thing, and a wonderful virtue... I think pressuring someone into charity is vile.

I also think that jewfaq.org disagrees with some of the claims you are making here.
You're trying to guilt and pressure me into being an atheist.  :shock:
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Johnson

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2008, 07:36:22 PM »

I am? I wasn't even talking to you initially.... I was talking with Diogenes the Cynic.
However, I don't use guilt, and I wouldn't call anything I ever talk about with regards to being agnostic pressuring... (since I am not an Atheist, so I guess my perceived guilting and pressuring can't have been that much)

Also, I'm not asking for donations, property, or even time... so your analogy is not even close to apt.

Here's a better comparison that's simpler... What I am asking for you to do, is to stop using force on others...

Whereas you seem to only see force as physical... I see force as extending further than that... I see anything that extends beyond positive persuasion, such as manipulation, fraud, conditioning, and logical fallacies, as examples of using a form of mental force. 
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2008, 08:25:41 PM »

I am? I wasn't even talking to you initially.... I was talking with Diogenes the Cynic.
However, I don't use guilt, and I wouldn't call anything I ever talk about with regards to being agnostic pressuring... (since I am not an Atheist, so I guess my perceived guilting and pressuring can't have been that much)

Also, I'm not asking for donations, property, or even time... so your analogy is not even close to apt.

Here's a better comparison that's simpler... What I am asking for you to do, is to stop using force on others...

Whereas you seem to only see force as physical... I see force as extending further than that... I see anything that extends beyond positive persuasion, such as manipulation, fraud, conditioning, and logical fallacies, as examples of using a form of mental force. 
Since when did I use force on others?
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Johnson

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2008, 08:29:02 PM »

I don't know about you personally...
I'm talking about the principles of Judaism. I can't speak for you.
I can only speak about Judaism from what I read, and what I've seen from the various Jews I've known...
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2008, 08:41:21 PM »

I don't know about you personally...
I'm talking about the principles of Judaism. I can't speak for you.
I can only speak about Judaism from what I read, and what I've seen from the various Jews I've known...
What principles in Judaism advocate initiation of force?  If you don't want to abide by Jewish Law then you stop being Jewish.  It's not very hard.  And its not like we're out here looking for converts, in fact Jewish Law specifically forbids evangelism! 

If you're going to say that since some Jews are socialistic then all Jews are socialists, then I'd have to say the same thing about every religion including Atheism and the non-religion Agnosticism.
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

Johnson

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2008, 09:11:18 PM »

...except that, unlike Judaism, the belief systems of Atheism and Agnosticism do not have any collectivist ideals built into them.

Basically, what I am getting is that you have conceded that Judaism does in fact have some collectivist ideals built right in, with the only exception to that fact being that one is free to simply stop believing in Judaism. (At which point you are no longer Jewish, so... guess what, Judaism still has socialist principles built into it... as long as you are a believer... You personally discontinuing your personal belief does not change the faith as a whole, and as defined by the Torah)

That is not like Atheism or Agnosticism much at all. It is of course, similar to the Christian concept of tithing... and one can stop being Christian just as easily, and stop putting money into the collection plate.

Regardless of the fact that Judaism doesn't threaten it's followers with hellfire and damnation, there are certainly other systems of pressure within the Jewish community. Your claims to the contrary are just deceptive and frankly that is a load of crap. To suggest that it is not common in Jewish society to pressure family members to devoutly follow their faith, and to even date and marry only other Jewish people - is just ignoring a very common truth of the Jewish community. I'm a little surprised that you would act as though Orthodox Jews, and Hasidics simply don't exist...

It is not written anywhere in any sort of "non-believer doctrine" that you will be expected to give 10% of your income after taxes to the church, the poor, or anyone else. It is also certainly not expected that if you do not, that you will receive pressure from your peers until you do, or until you change your faith.

Also... since it needs to be addressed, even though it's not really the argument at hand... pressuring people into joining a faith, and pressuring people into giving up their property, are two separate issues. They are individual issues, and should not be linked or confused.
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"In silent resignation, one must never submit to them voluntarily, and even if one is imprisoned in some ghastly dictatorship's jail, where no action is possible - serenity comes from the knowledge that one does NOT accept it. To deal with men by force, is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion... Which is the policy of savages who rule men by force, and who plead with nature by prayers, incantations and bribes (sacrifies)." - Ayn Rand

BonerJoe

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Re: Demographics - Education Level?
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2008, 09:11:46 PM »

What principles in Judaism advocate initiation of force? 

Circumcision.
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