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Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: Level 20 Anklebiter on October 07, 2008, 08:52:22 PM

Title: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on October 07, 2008, 08:52:22 PM
I only ask this question because I believe that fundamentally the majority of Americans don't give a flying flip whether 10,000 Lauren Canarios live or die in their action of civil disobedience so long as it doesn't cost them their way of life. What can a CivDis'er do when no one feels for them nor thinks of them?
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: BonerJoe on October 07, 2008, 08:57:47 PM
Other.

Only effective if LOTS of people are doing it.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on October 07, 2008, 09:01:05 PM
Other.

Only effective if LOTS of people are doing it.

What if the asshole down the street and his family, and half the city doesn't give a shit?
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: blackie on October 07, 2008, 09:01:34 PM
Other.

Only effective if LOTS of people are doing it.
this
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: BonerJoe on October 07, 2008, 09:03:01 PM
Other.

Only effective if LOTS of people are doing it.

What if the asshole down the street and his family, and half the city doesn't give a shit?

Burn their house down. Plus one.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Harry Tuttle on October 07, 2008, 09:05:47 PM
Okay, here's my take for wjat its worth. CD doesn't give liberty. The purpose of CD is to get attention, make people think, spread an idea. Going after freedom by engaging in CD is a long-term plan. People doing it are looking for something way down the road, not as an immeediate reward for their action.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: fatcat on October 07, 2008, 09:07:13 PM
Thats like saying how effective is a gun.

Depends whos using it, what they're using it against, etc etc

The only times civil disobedience has been seen to have any large scale effect is when it is used in large numbers (i.e. >1% of the population), something the NH lib crowd seem to be oblivious to.

If you're doing it on your own you're just wasting your time when you could be doing more productive things.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on October 07, 2008, 09:11:02 PM
Thats like saying how effective is a gun.

Depends whos using it, what they're using it against, etc etc

The only times civil disobedience has been seen to have any large scale effect is when it is used in large numbers (i.e. >1% of the population), something the NH lib crowd seem to be oblivious to.

If you're doing it on your own you're just wasting your time when you could be doing more productive things.

That's why I put the option for situationally effective.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Harry Tuttle on October 07, 2008, 09:14:50 PM
I think they are trying to inspire others - build momentum. For that reason all of the naysayers really bother me. I mean, is criticizing those who are doing something really advancing our cause?
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on October 07, 2008, 09:16:54 PM
I think they are trying to inspire others - build momentum. For that reason all of the naysayers really bother me. I mean, is criticizing those who are doing something really advancing our cause?

I have no issue with them other than their bullshit attitude. They some how thing just because someone who agrees with them doesn't do it their way is bad/dumb/inferior/whatever, which is the real irk for me with them. As well as they cannot fundamentally answer how to deal with a portion of the population that wouldn't mind blowing someone away for a cheese burger (or some other good/service). How do they expect to deal with the truly violent and unconcerned?
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: fatcat on October 07, 2008, 09:23:37 PM
Thats like saying how effective is a gun.

Depends whos using it, what they're using it against, etc etc

The only times civil disobedience has been seen to have any large scale effect is when it is used in large numbers (i.e. >1% of the population), something the NH lib crowd seem to be oblivious to.

If you're doing it on your own you're just wasting your time when you could be doing more productive things.

That's why I put the option for situationally effective.

Thats why i voted for it.

I was just pointing out how stupid it would be for anyone to answer any other way.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Level 20 Anklebiter on October 07, 2008, 09:24:06 PM
Thats like saying how effective is a gun.

Depends whos using it, what they're using it against, etc etc

The only times civil disobedience has been seen to have any large scale effect is when it is used in large numbers (i.e. >1% of the population), something the NH lib crowd seem to be oblivious to.

If you're doing it on your own you're just wasting your time when you could be doing more productive things.

That's why I put the option for situationally effective.

Thats why i voted for it.

I was just pointing out how stupid it would be for anyone to answer any other way.

No problem, then.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: hellbilly on October 07, 2008, 09:53:27 PM
Before voting, can someone give an example of a situation where it actually changed something? (In recent years)

Also, why haven't you guys posted in the "Practical Disobedience" thread?
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Lindsey on October 07, 2008, 10:00:52 PM
I think I sort of agree with Harry Tuttle.  The part that bothers me is that it doesn't do anything but cost local taxpayers money to keep you in these jails repeatedly.  I really think that is the opposite of freedom.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Lindsey on October 07, 2008, 10:07:02 PM
When Ed and Elaine Brown were doing their thing, anyone I spoke with about it (other than here) pretty much thought they were batshit insane, and figured they had the whole Waco experience coming to them.  I think this is the usual attitude toward any form of CD, but occasionally, when there is unusual brutality, people might care if it's over an issue that resonates with them.

Well, it made sense to a degree.  But when it gets to the point where there are feds standing guard outside your house and you can't come and go, I'd say that constitutes a loss of freedom as well.  Because the rest of us are still here paying our taxes.  And yes, to an extent we are given a choice - and we choose to pay them to continue receiving what freedoms this country allows us still. 
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: blackie on October 07, 2008, 10:07:58 PM
When Ed and Elaine Brown were doing their thing, anyone I spoke with about it (other than here) pretty much thought they were batshit insane,
They are batshit insane. They should have ran.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Lindsey on October 07, 2008, 10:09:55 PM
When Ed and Elaine Brown were doing their thing, anyone I spoke with about it (other than here) pretty much thought they were batshit insane,
They are batshit insane. They should have ran.

I bet it would have been nice for them to be able to go outside and take a walk.   :P
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: sillyperson on October 07, 2008, 10:24:14 PM
Situationally effective.

Keys to success:
1) needs to be seen by a large number of people
2) needs to evoke, in the average viewer, empathy with the dissenter and not with the State

Most of the CD I have seen so far in NH has been fail on one or both of the above.
Classic counter-example, of superbly well-done CD, was Mike Fisher's "Outlaw Manicure"
[youtube=425,350]Kx0HH5FIScU[/youtube]
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: blackie on October 07, 2008, 10:26:20 PM
Situationally effective.

Keys to success:
1) needs to be seen by a large number of people
2) needs to evoke, in the average viewer, empathy with the dissenter and not with the State

Most of the CD I have seen so far in NH has been fail on one or both of the above.
Classic counter-example, of superbly well-done CD, was Mike Fisher's "Outlaw Manicure"
[youtube=425,350]Kx0HH5FIScU[/youtube]

But one of the problems with this kind of stuff is that it points out how shitty NH is. Free state my ass.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Taors on October 07, 2008, 11:02:11 PM
The problem with the stuff Lauren Canario and her bunch does is that it only affects them. I've heard Ian justify this behavior on here and on the show by saying that they're simply 'acting like the free men and women that they are' (I'm obviously paraphrasing here). They have no regard for other people...just what they want, and they want it NOW. They don't want to wait for anyone else to catch up to their ideas, or their way of thinking. They want what they want immediately, and they'll stop at nothing to get it.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: fatcat on October 07, 2008, 11:35:34 PM
I've heard Ian justify this behavior on here and on the show by saying that they're simply 'acting like the free men and women that they are'

That is one of the lamest justifications that gets thrown about.

Shit if Lauren Canario is a freedom fighter, I know smack heads who would rival Ghandi in the amount of "acting freely" they do.

Smart people don't get caught.

Buts its about getting attention onto liberty!

oh but wait, no ones paying attention, nevermind....
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Taors on October 08, 2008, 12:09:56 AM
I've heard Ian justify this behavior on here and on the show by saying that they're simply 'acting like the free men and women that they are'

That is one of the lamest justifications that gets thrown about.

Shit if Lauren Canario is a freedom fighter, I know smack heads who would rival Ghandi in the amount of "acting freely" they do.

Smart people don't get caught.

Buts its about getting attention onto liberty!

oh but wait, no ones paying attention, nevermind....

Exactly...no one cares if you get arrested for not having a driver's license. Almost everyone in this country believes that they're necessary (even quite a few libertarians) for the safety of other drivers besides yourself on the road. You aren't going to win the minds and hearts of the people by constantly flogging their beliefs in the system.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: hellbilly on October 08, 2008, 01:57:00 AM
So uhh.. when was the last time CV changed anything? The Boston Tea Party and Whisky Rebellion don't count.
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience effectivness?
Post by: Rillion on October 08, 2008, 05:34:23 AM
I've heard Ian justify this behavior on here and on the show by saying that they're simply 'acting like the free men and women that they are'

That is one of the lamest justifications that gets thrown about.

Shit if Lauren Canario is a freedom fighter, I know smack heads who would rival Ghandi in the amount of "acting freely" they do.

Smart people don't get caught.

Buts its about getting attention onto liberty!

oh but wait, no ones paying attention, nevermind....

Well, it's not really civil disobedience if you don't get "caught."  The whole point of civil disobedience is  for people to pay attention, and then join you, and they can't do that if they don't know you're doing it in the first place. 

The fact that nobody is paying attention now is testament to exactly how much freedom has been taken away.  In a country with the largest prison population in the world, per capita, you could get sent there for life on bogus charges and chances are that people won't even notice.