The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: jckeyser on March 31, 2007, 08:15:10 AM
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I'd go with Milton.
The fact is, economics, the most important subject in school, has never been stressed. Private schools, it seems, would be the only ones who could even do anything about this. Government schools don't want kids learning about the effectiveness of a free market, then a new generation could put the feds out of business. The only thing I remembered about my economics class in high school was that we all had to create a business. Mine was the Drink N Go Liquor Sto'. I, like many, have had to teach myself the basic principles of that subject. Your average high schooler could give two shits.
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Voted Friedman, because he's the most readable, however, Henry Hazlett may be a good choice, too.
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The best is still missing: Murray N. Rothbard. Read "Man, Economy, State". Available at mises.org
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The best is still missing: Murray N. Rothbard. Read "Man, Economy, State". Available at mises.org
I have, I believe Friedman is more effective with regards to economics.
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The best is still missing: Murray N. Rothbard. Read "Man, Economy, State". Available at mises.org
This is true, however, it would be hard to get tenure as a teacher using that text.
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The best is still missing: Murray N. Rothbard. Read "Man, Economy, State". Available at mises.org
This is true, however, it would be hard to get tenure as a teacher using that text.
Exactly, Rothbard is likely to never show up in a high school classroom. The general public sees Friedman more as an economist than libertarian icon.
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Friedman is also a Nobel Prize winner. His book Free to Chose is highly readable by just about anyone.
I doubt many high schoolers would be willing to plow through Human Action.
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apart from college economics courses (History of Economic Thought was THE most enlightening course I've ever taken...Taught by a libertarian too), I gained my understanding of economics from Economic Sophisms and The Law by Frederic Bastiat.
http://www.amazon.com/Law-Frederic-Bastiat/dp/1596059648/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1971120-7791269?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175352763&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Economic-Fallacies-Frederic-Bastiat/dp/1931541027/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/002-1971120-7791269?ie=UTF8&qid=1175352763&sr=8-1
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apart from college economics courses (History of Economic Thought was THE most enlightening course I've ever taken...Taught by a libertarian too), I gained my understanding of economics from Economic Sophisms and The Law by Frederic Bastiat.
http://www.amazon.com/Law-Frederic-Bastiat/dp/1596059648/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1971120-7791269?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175352763&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Economic-Fallacies-Frederic-Bastiat/dp/1931541027/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/002-1971120-7791269?ie=UTF8&qid=1175352763&sr=8-1
The Law, I believe, is excellent and a quick read, there is a free PDF download somewhere. I'll post the link when I dig it up.
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I guess it's not a big surprise that I went with Friedman. Free to Choose is an excellent book/TV series which is very readable. Behind him I would go with Hayek, though Hayek was more philosophical than analytical.
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I guess it's not a big surprise that I went with Friedman. Free to Choose is an excellent book/TV series which is very readable. Behind him I would go with Hayek, though Hayek was more philosophical than analytical.
Free to Choose, along with Captalism:The Unknown Ideal are the two books I got my initial knowledge of economics from. Hayek wanted a little too much government intervention for my liking, but his economic theories warrant a look.
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apart from college economics courses (History of Economic Thought was THE most enlightening course I've ever taken...Taught by a libertarian too), I gained my understanding of economics from Economic Sophisms and The Law by Frederic Bastiat.
http://www.amazon.com/Law-Frederic-Bastiat/dp/1596059648/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1971120-7791269?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175352763&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Economic-Fallacies-Frederic-Bastiat/dp/1931541027/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/002-1971120-7791269?ie=UTF8&qid=1175352763&sr=8-1
Not really a download, but here's the entire text.
http://www.constitution.org/law/bastiat.htm
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Friedman all the way. I have "Free to Choose" on my desk.
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I voted freidman, although Mises and Rothbard are very skilled economists they don't have that same touch of explanation with ease what it is all about besides the series "Free to Choose" motion pictures series does wonders I think to demonstrate it even better for the people not so keen on reading.
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Hayek and Rothbard are great if you want students to garner some perspective on libertarianism, but I wouldn't use them in attempting to help high school students understand basic economics. I plan on utilizing Hayek quite a bit in my history class when I'm a teacher. Hayek's essay on History and Politics does an excellent job of explaining why is history practical to modern life.
Hayek's The Road to Serfdom might be effective, but it also might be too hard too read for high schoolers.
I think you'd have the best luck with Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson.
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Hayek and Rothbard are great if you want students to garner some perspective on libertarianism, but I wouldn't use them in attempting to help high school students understand basic economics. I plan on utilizing Hayek quite a bit in my history class when I'm a teacher. Hayek's essay on History and Politics does an excellent job of explaining why is history practical to modern life.
Hayek's The Road to Serfdom might be effective, but it also might be too hard too read for high schoolers.
I think you'd have the best luck with Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson.
Yeah, definitely, I got that for my sister for her birthday. (she's in high school)
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Hayek and Rothbard are great if you want students to garner some perspective on libertarianism, but I wouldn't use them in attempting to help high school students understand basic economics. I plan on utilizing Hayek quite a bit in my history class when I'm a teacher. Hayek's essay on History and Politics does an excellent job of explaining why is history practical to modern life.
Hayek's The Road to Serfdom might be effective, but it also might be too hard too read for high schoolers.
I think you'd have the best luck with Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson.
Hayek believes in the intervention of government in too many areas for him to be considered libertarian.
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I would argue the same about Friedman. The point of this thread, as I understand it, is to identify the best introduction to economics, not the best introduction to libertarianism.
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I think you'd have the best luck with Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson.
I agree whole-heartedly with this.
Hazlitt points out some of the flaws in Keynes theories, and 1 Lesson is a very good intro for Mises, Rothbard & Hayek.
Let the student choose which authors & economists they want to pick up next for continuing study.
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Man, Economy and State is the best introduction, after One Lesson.
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I would argue the same about Friedman. The point of this thread, as I understand it, is to identify the best introduction to economics, not the best introduction to libertarianism.
I agree, I was responding to a previous poster who said that he would use Hayek as a good introduction to libertarianism.
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I think you'd have the best luck with Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson.
I agree whole-heartedly with this.
Hazlitt points out some of the flaws in Keynes theories, and 1 Lesson is a very good intro for Mises, Rothbard & Hayek.
Let the student choose which authors & economists they want to pick up next for continuing study.
At this point, unlike when he was at the forefront of economics, Keynes has been debunked enough to hopefully have lost any credibility he might have had.
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At this point, unlike when he was at the forefront of economics, Keynes has been debunked enough to hopefully have lost any credibility he might have had.
Ah, at this point that is not as true as we would like it to be. Mainstream economics has a great deal of Keynesian influence. Basically all we've been talking about in my macro class.
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At this point, unlike when he was at the forefront of economics, Keynes has been debunked enough to hopefully have lost any credibility he might have had.
Ah, at this point that is not as true as we would like it to be. Mainstream economics has a great deal of Keynesian influence. Basically all we've been talking about in my macro class.
Thats a shame. Even his most influential writings were so transparent that a middle school student could poke holes in it. If Friedman, or even Rothabard would be brought more into the forefront in school, you'd see a lot more kids with liberty-oriented personal political philosophies, rather than the teenaged socialism we see so much of. I think a basic understanding of the subject is key when developing social and political beliefs.
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Perhaps Hayek and Friedman were in favor of more government than an anarchist would support, but I think they certainly qualify as libertarians.
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At this point, unlike when he was at the forefront of economics, Keynes has been debunked enough to hopefully have lost any credibility he might have had.
Ah, at this point that is not as true as we would like it to be. Mainstream economics has a great deal of Keynesian influence. Basically all we've been talking about in my macro class.
We don't study much Keynes here, except in the context of how he was wrong and has been thoroughly debunked by empirical evidence (not to mention his theories just don't make sense...they rely on a stupid and ignorant population that is unable to react to market forces). Lucas basically won the Nobel Prize for his work debunking Keynes.
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Perhaps Hayek and Friedman were in favor of more government than an anarchist would support, but I think they certainly qualify as libertarians.
Hayek was a welfare state supporter and supporter of laws that would regulate the amount of hours people could work, as well as various other "social services". Hayek, to me, is most certainly *not* a libertarian. He was a free market supporter, though, and a very qualified economist.
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At this point, unlike when he was at the forefront of economics, Keynes has been debunked enough to hopefully have lost any credibility he might have had.
Ah, at this point that is not as true as we would like it to be. Mainstream economics has a great deal of Keynesian influence. Basically all we've been talking about in my macro class.
We don't study much Keynes here, except in the context of how he was wrong and has been thoroughly debunked by empirical evidence (not to mention his theories just don't make sense...they rely on a stupid and ignorant population that is unable to react to market forces). Lucas basically won the Nobel Prize for his work debunking Keynes.
Yes, Keynes' theories operated under the assumption that no one in the world knew a thing about business cycles but him.
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Hayek was a welfare state supporter? I certainly never got that impression of him. Do you have any links on that?
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Hayek was a welfare state supporter? I certainly never got that impression of him. Do you have any links on that?
I never did either, initially. There was a massive book outlining economic theorie I read awhile back that had some surpriing stuff on both him and Mises. Ummm...I think Radicals for Capitalism mentions it briefly, too.
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Hayek was a welfare state supporter
Wait doesn't that contradict the whole argument he lays out in The Road to Serfdom :?
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Hayek was a welfare state supporter
Wait doesn't that contradict the whole argument he lays out in The Road to Serfdom :?
In Serfdom, his clear assertation is that government not have complete control over any national respective economy. He was willing to allow government to maintain a minimum standard for people to live by, as a beginning. I.E. instead of everyone starting out poor, everyone should begin with a base income. Sort of a reverse salary cap. Beyond that, he was a free market economist, just not very aggressively anti-government.
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I think he was very aggressively anti-government and specifically stated the only areas where he supported it. I'm not saying I agree with him, but I really don't see him as being very pro-government at all.
Of course, you could definitely argue that he would have supported a non-democratic system of government so long as it was small. He's not a huge advocate of democracy from what I remember.
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Hayek was a welfare state supporter
Wait doesn't that contradict the whole argument he lays out in The Road to Serfdom :?
In Serfdom, his clear assertation is that government not have complete control over any national respective economy. He was willing to allow government to maintain a minimum standard for people to live by, as a beginning. I.E. instead of everyone starting out poor, everyone should begin with a base income. Sort of a reverse salary cap. Beyond that, he was a free market economist, just not very aggressively anti-government.
So just inconsistent. I didn't read the whole book, I probably should...
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In Serfdom, his clear assertation is that government not have complete control over any national respective economy. He was willing to allow government to maintain a minimum standard for people to live by, as a beginning. I.E. instead of everyone starting out poor, everyone should begin with a base income. Sort of a reverse salary cap. Beyond that, he was a free market economist, just not very aggressively anti-government.
Friedman's negative income tax would do the same thing wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure neither of them are supporters of the welfare state in the traditional sense, i.e., the cradle to grave mentality, individual responsibility to be replaced with "social responsibility", and redistribution of wealth (Hayek definitely despised the final one, and I assume Friedman felt the same). If Friedman and Hayek can't be considered libertarians then how can libertarianism ever become anything more than a marginalised movement of perceived lunatics?
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Friedman's negative income tax would do the same thing wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure neither of them are supporters of the welfare state in the traditional sense, i.e., the cradle to grave mentality, individual responsibility to be replaced with "social responsibility", and redistribution of wealth (Hayek definitely despised the final one, and I assume Friedman felt the same). If Friedman and Hayek can't be considered libertarians then how can libertarianism ever become anything more than a marginalised movement of perceived lunatics?
Consistency
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* Who cares
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That's bullshit. Hayek and Friedman were both libertarians in the traditional sense.
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That's bullshit. Hayek and Friedman were both libertarians in the traditional sense.
Friedman more so than Hayek. Hayek had a weird belief that government should be there to bail people out in a few situations.
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The argument "is/was X a libertarian?" is the single lamest argument ever.
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The argument "is/was X a libertarian?" is the single lamest argument ever.
Then stop arguing about it.
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The argument "is/was X a libertarian?" is the single lamest argument ever.
Then stop arguing about it.
I did... :roll:
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You're still posting in this thread.
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You're still posting in this thread.
Yeah...
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Righto.
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Mmm hmm.
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You have a bird on your neck, dude.
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Oh is that what that is?
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I think. It kinda looks like a Swallow.
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not a spit?
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Get your mind outta da guttah.
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You have a bird on your neck, dude.
And
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The argument "is/was X a libertarian?" is the single lamest argument ever.
No, the argument over whether or not holding doors open for people is rational is.
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The argument "is/was X a libertarian?" is the single lamest argument ever.
No, the argument over whether or not holding doors open for people is rational is.
The rationality of holding doors open has far reaching consequences.
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The argument "is/was X a libertarian?" is the single lamest argument ever.
No, the argument over whether or not holding doors open for people is rational is.
The rationality of holding doors open has far reaching consequences.
Maybe it should be in the second edition of Freakonomics.
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The first edition was enough.
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The first edition was enough.
The Undercover Economist is the shizz though.
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The first edition was enough.
The Undercover Economist is the shizz though.
I really enjoyed Undercover Economist.
Defending the Undefendable: The Pimp, Prostitute, Scab, Slumlord, Libeler, Moneylender, and Other Scapegoats in the Rogue's Gallery of American Society by Walter Block is quite wonderful. Plus, it makes for a great conversation starter. (Not that I really wanted the interruptions while I was working on my cheeseburger & guinness.)
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The first edition was enough.
The Undercover Economist is the shizz though.
I really enjoyed Undercover Economist.
Defending the Undefendable: The Pimp, Prostitute, Scab, Slumlord, Libeler, Moneylender, and Other Scapegoats in the Rogue's Gallery of American Society by Walter Block is quite wonderful. Plus, it makes for a great conversation starter. (Not that I really wanted the interruptions while I was working on my cheeseburger & guinness.)
The Undercover Economist makes it so that even the economically retarded can understand a simple business model.
I heart guinness. Ever tried Murphy's?
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The Undercover Economist makes it so that even the economically retarded can understand a simple business model.
I heart guinness. Ever tried Murphy's?
Yes, I've tried Murphy's. I seem to have quality issues with the places I've tried it.
Guinness is the safer bet, if I don't get to taste test before they pull the whole pint.
My favorite lately has been an imperial stout (higher alcohol beer) that had the bite of an iced espresso. It's served in the smaller belgian style glasses. I need to ask next time I walk into 5 Seasons who makes it - because by the time I get to glass number four I have other priorities.
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The first edition was enough.
The Undercover Economist is the shizz though.
Yeah, far better than FreakoNomics...
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The first edition was enough.
The Undercover Economist is the shizz though.
Yeah, far better than FreakoNomics...
Yeah, it misses the mark more often than not. One wonders if he actually did much research or just made a smattering of educated guesses.
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The Undercover Economist makes it so that even the economically retarded can understand a simple business model.
I heart guinness. Ever tried Murphy's?
Yes, I've tried Murphy's. I seem to have quality issues with the places I've tried it.
Guinness is the safer bet, if I don't get to taste test before they pull the whole pint.
My favorite lately has been an imperial stout (higher alcohol beer) that had the bite of an iced espresso. It's served in the smaller belgian style glasses. I need to ask next time I walk into 5 Seasons who makes it - because by the time I get to glass number four I have other priorities.
Which are what?
Right now I'm having to settle for PBR and Sailor Jerry rum. I can't even tell which one is actually getting me drunk right now.
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Without reading through the whole thread to see if it was already mentioned, I highly recommend P. J. O'Rorke's "Eat The Rich." It's a smart, funny, great read, and you'll see lots of practical examples of economics, not just dry theory.
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Even though I like Hayek and Mises, they're more in the realm of the most theoretical aspects of economics, which leaves Friedman and Rothbard to call upon. I choose Friedman because he's able to couple the idea of economics to politics such that it is necessary to be economically free to be politically free.
-- Brede
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What about Hazlitt? Works that I have read by Rothbard and von Mises tend to be complex. I haven't read Keynes (but I think his theories have proved false), Hayek, or Friedman. Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson is easy to read and gets right to the root of economic laws and theory. Much more appropriate for a high-schooler than some of the esoteric stuff.
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I'm 18 and I find Rothbard to be easy to read and to the point. I love his work.
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I'm 18 and I find Rothbard to be easy to read and to the point. I love his work.
I'm torn. "Economics in One Lesson" and "Free to Choose" would both be great starter materials, but for pure, start the discussion at the beginning of class and let the kids go to it, you can't beat Rothbard.
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I'm 18 and I find Rothbard to be easy to read and to the point. I love his work.
I'm torn. "Economics in One Lesson" and "Free to Choose" would both be great starter materials, but for pure, start the discussion at the beginning of class and let the kids go to it, you can't beat Rothbard.
I think Hazlitt would be much easier to get into the classroom than Rothbard.
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I wonder if anyone would want to write economics articles for grade schoolers. We got a basic children's book that FTL promotes, why not make some text books for the rest of the K-12 group?
-- Brede
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I wonder if anyone would want to write economics articles for grade schoolers. We got a basic children's book that FTL promotes, why not make some text books for the rest of the K-12 group?
-- Brede
Outta this group? By the time this group got done, Johnny would be thanking his stars that Uncle Joe just took him in the closet once in a while and didn't lecture him on socialist calculation! :D
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I wonder if anyone would want to write economics articles for grade schoolers. We got a basic children's book that FTL promotes, why not make some text books for the rest of the K-12 group?
-- Brede
I always thought a colorful kid book that breaks down the benefits of the free market would be great too. I don't think K-12ers get money management stressed enough.
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I wonder if anyone would want to write economics articles for grade schoolers. We got a basic children's book that FTL promotes, why not make some text books for the rest of the K-12 group?
-- Brede
I always thought a colorful kid book that breaks down the benefits of the free market would be great too. I don't think K-12ers get money management stressed enough.
Whatever Happened to Penny Candy? A Fast, Clear, and Fun Explanation of the Economics You Need For Success in Your Career, Business, and Investments (An Uncle Eric Book) (Paperback)
by Richard J. Maybury
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/0942617525.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V45423973_AA240_.jpg)
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I wonder if anyone would want to write economics articles for grade schoolers. We got a basic children's book that FTL promotes, why not make some text books for the rest of the K-12 group?
-- Brede
Someone needs to open up a private school specializing in free market theory in NH for children. I'd do it if I had the money and the resources.