Are libertarians selfish?

Yes

33 (82.5%)

No, I value my money too much

5 (12.5%)

No, if I don't get freedom no one does

1 (2.5%)

I hate freedom (Nathyn)

1 (2.5%)

Total Members Voted: 21

[Andy]

I hope libertarians are selfish. As Ayn Rand said, rational self-interest is a virtue.

Can you imagine the hell of a world where most people weren't selfish? In that case, having more than another person would be evil. To be good, you'd have to give away all of your stuff until you had less than everyone else--and then they would be the evil ones, and would have to give THEIR stuff away...

The evil Christian ideal of selflessness leads to ever increasing poverty and a downward spiral as each person strives to be better by living their life for someone else. Instead, each person should strive to attain the best they can for themselves. By doing that, you end up helping everyone.

This bothers me a little, if you accept psychological egoism as I do then ethical egoism seems less important. The virtue would then become "having some common sense about your own material well being.

[freedom geek]

I thought the question was "are libertarians selfish". So I voted yes.

You can change your vote.

[dalebert]

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish..."

I heard a better slogan at Porcfest.

"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

[Lindsey]

Selfishness makes me horny.

Should we all back away? 

[Lindsey]

You're being too considerate.

 

So then you'd like us to come closer? 

[Ed]

God Kelsey is a fucking slut.

[phantomofroute66]

Not being a burden to others is the greatest service to mankind the average Joe can perform.  Enlightened self-interest is the only path to this goal.

Selfishness is only bad when it truly victimizes others.  Such a person is better known as a sociopath.

[Lindsey]

You're being too considerate.

 

So then you'd like us to come closer? 

You're clearly not getting this...

 

It's fun to mess with you. 

[Lindsey]

You're being too considerate.

 

So then you'd like us to come closer? 

You're clearly not getting this...

 

It's fun to mess with you. 

I can think of more fun ways for you to mess with me.

So can I.  Fabulous, now I'm going to be distracted at work all day.   

[iWantToLiveFree]

I would.. in fact I did, and will likely do it again. But I hope to eventually be allowed to move there someday so that may not count. Although what I donated for would clearly still not allow me to get there... simply make the place freer, which I hope is going to lead to my being able to get there eventually.

It is rational self interest as I expect positive repercussions over here and to eventually be able to move over there (although, again, what I gave toward will still not allow me to "get there").

In short:

• Are libertarians selfish? Yes no more no less than everybody else.. except they understand it better than most.
• Would I give money to another country so they would get liberty even if I couldn't go there? Yes, because no such country would be isolated and I expect positive changes at home.. and eventual ability to move (you didn't say "couldn't go there ever" - but even then, there are still the positive changes part).

[annyab]

I wouldn't say libertarians are, by nature, selfish. I think we would like to spend our money in ways we see fit, not taken by force and redistributed. For instance, I do not like paying taxes and paying for gov't programs that I don't approve of, but I would take $200 and loan it to some small business in a developing country, it's called microfinance.

[iWantToLiveFree]

For instance, I do not like paying taxes and paying for gov't programs that I don't approve of, but I would take $200 and loan it to some small business in a developing country, it's called microfinance.

Do you not do this because you expect to gain more in return than you lost? In other words, do you believe that it will hurt you in the long run or benefit you?

Allow me to give you my own interpretation of this:

• you expect to gain a short and possibly long term good feeling - increase your happiness
  
• you know there is an overwhelming chance you will get the $200 back (people seldom default on loans in microfinance)
• you value the immediate use of the $200 (interest, spending, loan to different people...) less than the aforementioned good feeling, even factoring in the risks to not get the money back in its entirety

This is a selfish act which incidentally benefits others. Everybody wins. Selfishness is something we can hardly escape as human beings.

Note: what people expect and what actually results are not necessarily the same thing. This often leads people to conclude that an act was not selfish as the person who undertook it is now clearly in pain or unhappy as a specific result of this action, with no other gains to be found. This is either because things did not turn out to be as excepted or because the gain is elsewhere, unseen by the observer.

For this to qualify as rational self interest though (which is what clever humans should seek for themselves), the long term benefits have to outweigh the long term losses. If only as an expectation. Hence the need for a conscious and reasoned action.

This principle necessarily leads one to renounce instant gain resulting from the initiation of force or fraud to live a peaceful life within society. This is because one understands that his self interest is maximized within such a society, and can only expect to not be initiated force or fraud against if he does not do so as well, and he therefore wishes to live in a society generally structured around this principle.
This is the essence of libertarianism, whether people realize it or not. Those who do are rationally self interested, and rightly so.

[annyab]

For instance, I do not like paying taxes and paying for gov't programs that I don't approve of, but I would take $200 and loan it to some small business in a developing country, it's called microfinance.

Do you not do this because you expect to gain more in return than you lost? In other words, do you believe that it will hurt you in the long run or benefit you?

Allow me to give you my own interpretation of this:

• you expect to gain a short and possibly long term good feeling - increase your happiness
  
• you know there is an overwhelming chance you will get the $200 back (people seldom default on loans in microfinance)
• you value the immediate use of the $200 (interest, spending, loan to different people...) less than the aforementioned good feeling, even factoring in the risks to not get the money back in its entirety

This is a selfish act which incidentally benefits others. Everybody wins. Selfishness is something we can hardly escape as human beings.

Note: what people expect and what actually results are not necessarily the same thing. This often leads people to conclude that an act was not selfish as the person who undertook it is now clearly in pain or unhappy as a specific result of this action, with no other gains to be found. This is either because things did not turn out to be as excepted or because the gain is elsewhere, unseen by the observer.

For this to qualify as rational self interest though (which is what clever humans should seek for themselves), the long term benefits have to outweigh the long term losses. If only as an expectation. Hence the need for a conscious and reasoned action.

This principle necessarily leads one to renounce instant gain resulting from the initiation of force or fraud to live a peaceful life within society. This is because one understands that his self interest is maximized within such a society, and can only expect to not be initiated force or fraud against if he does not do so as well, and he therefore wishes to live in a society generally structured around this principle.
This is the essence of libertarianism, whether people realize it or not. Those who do are rationally self interested, and rightly so.

I do it because I feel the $200 can give someone the chance to become self-sufficient and provide goods and services to those in nations that employment and/or self-employment is difficult. Yea, it makes me feel good, I will most likely get my money back, I value what $200 means to someone who has nothing. My point is that part of the libertarian philosophy should be to have the choice of where you're money goes, if anywhere at all.

[iWantToLiveFree]

My point is that part of the libertarian philosophy should be to have the choice of where you're money goes, if anywhere at all.

No doubt about that. We are both in agreement. I was merely pointing out that this is a consequence of Libertarians understanding rational self interest, which is the basis for the Non Aggression Principle (and hence the idea that you control your own body and all that follows, including your money).

So we are both mostly in agreement but I saw fit to point this out so the consequence is not mistaken for the cause. It seemed you did not realize it.

The main reason I posted is because of your assertion that Libertarians are not necessarily selfish, which is not true:

I wouldn't say libertarians are, by nature, selfish.

Not only are libertarians selfish (just like everybody else), but they understand their rational self interest well enough to identify, and call for an end to, initiated violence (which is the difference with others). Your example is perfectly fine and I think this is a great idea.. I myself only discovered ways to do that easily only recently, and I might consider doing it (right now, I tend to spend most of my donation money on liberty minded organizations).

[ladyattis]

Damn right I'm selfish! One's life is one's own.

-- Brede