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Free Talk Live => The Polling Pit => Topic started by: Alex Libman 14 on July 15, 2009, 03:39:22 PM

Title: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 15, 2009, 03:39:22 PM
I've skipped Vista (mostly because I was going through a Linux phase), but Windows 7 release candidate (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/download.aspx) seems as fast as XP and much nicer.  It can be downloaded for free for a lengthy trial - it will start restarting every two hours on March 1st (230 days from today) before expiring completely on June 1st (322 days) - more than enough time to find a crack, switch to a Google OS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_OS) beta, or whatever else you may decide to do.

My experience with it has been very positive, and some apps run even faster / better than on XP.  All Vista drivers work perfectly.  The only annoyance I had with it was Tera Term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tera_Term) cyglaunch opening needless console windows, but that was easy enough to fix.

It looks like Microsoft is starting to get things right.  What do y'all think?
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BonerJoe on July 15, 2009, 03:46:47 PM
I'm using it.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: blackie on July 15, 2009, 03:59:17 PM
I haven't tried it yet. Still on XP.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 15, 2009, 04:34:31 PM
XP is still somewhat independent of Microsoft micromanagement.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Lindsey on July 15, 2009, 05:02:24 PM
I've been wanting to try it out, but on the whole I've been too busy and too lazy to back up all of my files and partition my hard drive so I can dual boot.  Also I'm a little paranoid of the whole process. 
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on July 15, 2009, 05:05:42 PM
Windows XP sucks ass. Sorry to all ye who like it.

XP was my trigger to leave for LInux. When Vista hit, I didn't like it because of the bloat. After SP1, and after hardware moved out of the single-core age, Vista became usable, and even enjoyable.

When the Windows 7 Betas came out, I downloaded them. I'm alternating between Vista Home Premium and Windows 7 RC on my laptop at home right now. I actually went to buy an upgrade license last night, but the $49 promotion ended and it's now costing $119. Fifty bucks for Windows 7 is in my price range, $119 is not.

Compared to Vista SP1, I like Windows 7 much better, but there are still some software issues that have yet to be resolved (big on for me, VirtualBox fails to pass USB Devices property to guess systems) but hardware is great.

The Windows 7 Client is awesome. WIndows FINALLY manages updates and upgrades of third-party drivers; that makes me happy.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BonerJoe on July 15, 2009, 05:14:35 PM
I like how people refuse to take into account how much their time is worth when they complain about the price of Windows. Hours and hours and hours of trying to get linux to work right never seems to register...
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: blackie on July 15, 2009, 05:18:32 PM
I will try Windows 7 when I get new hardware. The 128 MB video card requirement makes it a no-go for most of my hardware.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 15, 2009, 06:10:29 PM
I only have 64 MB dedicated memory on this 3.5-year-old laptop (http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/gateway-cx200x/4505-3121_7-31533954.html), and Win7 runs fine for me.

Graphics is my lowest score (under Windows Experience Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_System_Assessment_Tool)) with 2.0, the 3.5 for processor (performance capped to prevent overheating), 3.5 for gaming graphics, 4.2 for RAM (2 GB system), 4.3 for disk data transfer rate.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Russell Griswold on July 15, 2009, 09:44:33 PM
I will try Windows 7 when I get new hardware. The 128 MB video card requirement makes it a no-go for most of my hardware.

How old is your shit, man?  :shock:
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: blackie on July 15, 2009, 09:58:02 PM
I will try Windows 7 when I get new hardware. The 128 MB video card requirement makes it a no-go for most of my hardware.

How old is your shit, man?  :shock:
I've got two desktops systems that are about 5 years old, and a laptop that is about 4 years old.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Lindsey on July 15, 2009, 10:28:12 PM
Windows XP sucks ass. Sorry to all ye who like it.

XP was my trigger to leave for LInux. When Vista hit, I didn't like it because of the bloat. After SP1, and after hardware moved out of the single-core age, Vista became usable, and even enjoyable.

When the Windows 7 Betas came out, I downloaded them. I'm alternating between Vista Home Premium and Windows 7 RC on my laptop at home right now. I actually went to buy an upgrade license last night, but the $49 promotion ended and it's now costing $119. Fifty bucks for Windows 7 is in my price range, $119 is not.

Compared to Vista SP1, I like Windows 7 much better, but there are still some software issues that have yet to be resolved (big on for me, VirtualBox fails to pass USB Devices property to guess systems) but hardware is great.

The Windows 7 Client is awesome. WIndows FINALLY manages updates and upgrades of third-party drivers; that makes me happy.

Well fuck!  You're right.  I had seen it on Amazon for $49 too.  Damn...I was planning to get it.  I'm with you.  $119 is not happening. 
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: libertylover on July 16, 2009, 05:12:47 AM
XP until it gives up the ghost mostly because I can't upgrade some software which is very cost prohibitive to replace.  It isn't just the OS that is expensive it is software for graphics applications and video production.  I can't afford an extra expense of upgrading.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 16, 2009, 01:34:09 PM
I like how people refuse to take into account how much their time is worth when they complain about the price of Windows. Hours and hours and hours of trying to get linux to work right never seems to register...

Strange how my experience has been the exact opposite.

The endless hours of virus scanning, cleaning, reinstalling applications (which is going on as I type, oddly enough) to correct for Windows vulnerabilities, never seems to register to Windows defenders.

Once Linux is installed, it just works.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BonerJoe on July 16, 2009, 01:40:55 PM
I like how people refuse to take into account how much their time is worth when they complain about the price of Windows. Hours and hours and hours of trying to get linux to work right never seems to register...

Strange how my experience has been the exact opposite.

The endless hours of virus scanning, cleaning, reinstalling applications (which is going on as I type, oddly enough) to correct for Windows vulnerabilities, never seems to register to Windows defenders.

Once Linux is installed, it just works.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Libertarianssuck on July 16, 2009, 01:43:21 PM
Not my experience. I had waaaay too many problems with linux regarding not having the drivers for the latest hardware I purchase to upgrade. Plenty of difficulties getting other things running or installed properly considering I'm transitions from a windows environment to linux everything is completely different. Where as I dont remember the last time I used a virus scanner or even had to reinstall a windows app. I think if you know what ur doing then you dont have a problem with viruses. I'm a huge torrent user as well.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 16, 2009, 01:49:06 PM
I think if you know what ur doing then you dont have a problem with viruses.

In volley, I think if you know what you are doing, Linux is as stable as a rock.

So really, it does prove again that no one answer works for everyone. Capitalism at its finest, giving everyone what they want.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Libertarianssuck on July 16, 2009, 01:54:49 PM
Yea the biggest problem I have with linux is gaming. Luckily I have a couple of crappy laptops I dont use for gaming and linux does wonders on them.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 16, 2009, 02:00:00 PM
Luckily I have a couple of ... laptops I dont use for gaming and linux does wonders on them.

Was the earlier comment true, that Win7 requires video cards with 128MB of RAM? Is that just to run, or to get some gnarly effects?

I say that because this 64MB video card does everything I want it to do, and I cannot imagine what the OS could possibly do with 128MB. A super-special application, sure, but the OS? Insane.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Libertarianssuck on July 16, 2009, 02:02:38 PM
Quote
   * 1 GHz processor (32- or 64-bit)
    * 1 GB of RAM (32-bit); 2 GB of RAM (64-bit)
    * 16 GB of available disk space (32-bit); 20 GB of avaiable disk space (64-bit)
    * Support for DirectX 9 graphics with 128MB of memory (for the Aero interface)

My main gaming comp I have a gig on my video card so not an issue for me
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on July 16, 2009, 04:02:27 PM
Quote
Was the earlier comment true, that Win7 requires video cards with 128MB of RAM? Is that just to run, or to get some gnarly effects?

I think that's the run the composite effects of Aero. I've run Windows 7 in a virtual machine with 16MB of video RAM. It works.

Quote
Once Linux is installed, it just works.

I'm a Linux fanboy. When this is true, it's true. When this is wrong, it's way... the fuck.. wrong.

The important thing, no matter what OS you run, is that your OS is designed for you needs and your hardware. Built a system designed for Linux and drop XP on it. You'll spend hours fucking with network drivers, video drivers and sound drivers. Pop in Ubuntu and boom, you're online, running image editing software, watching movies with three clicks and prospering.

The opposite is true. I bought a laptop without really paying attention to the hardware because... well... Linux is flawless. I can get either wifi OR 3D acceleration but not both. Since my laptop is part of a wireless network and replaces my TV, that one or the other shit isn't cutting it. Even on the best of distros, I've got a better-than-average printer. It's wide format both in printing and in high-res scanning. It's wireless. Holy damn, can't use it with Linux! CUPS makes a driver for models in the same series, but not my specific model, and the other close-enough drivers don't work. As for scanning, fugeddahbout it. Last I checked, SANE wasn't even able to PROBE for scanners that aren't physically attached to the machine.

The Xerox Phaser solid ink printers at work? Nope. Linux did, at one point, back in KDE 3.5 if the stars were aligned properly. For some reason, it broke and never quite started working again. I stopped reporting bugs after a year of that.

I'm still more productive on Linux because I know it better, and I do like it better, but being unrealistic is a very good way of having people disappointed and going on anti-Linux rampages. :P
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Bill Brasky on July 18, 2009, 01:30:07 AM
I like how people refuse to take into account how much their time is worth when they complain about the price of Windows. Hours and hours and hours of trying to get linux to work right never seems to register...

Strange how my experience has been the exact opposite.

The endless hours of virus scanning, cleaning, reinstalling applications (which is going on as I type, oddly enough) to correct for Windows vulnerabilities, never seems to register to Windows defenders.


What endless hours? 

Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 18, 2009, 01:32:18 AM
I like how people refuse to take into account how much their time is worth when they complain about the price of Windows. Hours and hours and hours of trying to get linux to work right never seems to register...

Strange how my experience has been the exact opposite.

The endless hours of virus scanning, cleaning, reinstalling applications (which is going on as I type, oddly enough) to correct for Windows vulnerabilities, never seems to register to Windows defenders.


What endless hours? 


Yeah, I don't know.  Never happened to me.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 19, 2009, 04:30:18 AM
I didn't know that I was missing out on any visual effects with 64 MB video RAM here, everything looks great compared to XP.

Messing with Linux is a fun educational experience (including bootstrapping it from scratch), but when you want to get stuff done on a desktop -- you know, like a big boy with a job or a business to run -- Windows is king.

If it takes you "endless hours" to do something on Windows, then -- sorry to break it to ya -- you just ain't doing it right.  The most annoying thing about Windows is lack of simple built-in centralized package management (ex. `win-get install sua silverlight3-sdk dotnet-4beta iron\*`), but that's mostly an issue of lawyers, not programmers...  And you don't really need any anti-virus / anti-spyware if you know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: freeAgent on July 19, 2009, 08:25:16 PM
We're going to migrate to Windows 7 at work starting in October.  I probably won't upgrade my home machines before next year (if then), in part because I'll be using all of my available money to furnish my new condo and Vista will continue to work just like it has been working.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: EternityAblaze on July 20, 2009, 12:08:27 AM
If they have nView for nVidia graphics cards, I will move to Windows 7.  I actually only bought an nVidia card because long long ago, when I had one, I witnessed first hand how superior nView is compared to ATI's Catalyst Control Panel.

However, nView is not available for Vista and even though, I still won't go back to XP because I want to make use of Direct X 10.  So I am damned if i do, and damned if I dont.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 20, 2009, 12:54:18 AM
We're going to migrate to Windows 7 at work starting in October.  I probably won't upgrade my home machines before next year (if then), in part because I'll be using all of my available money to furnish my new condo and Vista will continue to work just like it has been working.


If you're doing everything right, it should only take a couple hours to add a Windows 7 partition, which you can delete in the spring when it begins to expire - or crack it.  ;)

The general "best practices" are:






Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 20, 2009, 03:24:43 AM
If they have nView for nVidia graphics cards, I will move to Windows 7.  I actually only bought an nVidia card because long long ago, when I had one, I witnessed first hand how superior nView is compared to ATI's Catalyst Control Panel.

However, nView is not available for Vista and even though, I still won't go back to XP because I want to make use of Direct X 10.  So I am damned if i do, and damned if I dont.
nVidia has been laggin hardcore these last coupla years.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: EternityAblaze on July 20, 2009, 12:16:08 PM
the only reason I might go to windows 7 is, if they eventually remove all vista support and upgrades and move to windows 7.  Then I guess Id have no choice.  Otherwise, as long as there is support for Vista, I have no reason to switch.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Evil Muppet on July 20, 2009, 01:12:18 PM
I'm not sure if I'll use this or not.  Like all things Windows I'm having problems.  It took me forever to log in for the privilege of downloading Win7 and for the past half hour I've been staring at nice little green dots chasing themselves around in circles.  Microsoft just pisses me off. 
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 20, 2009, 02:09:04 PM
if they eventually remove all vista support and upgrades and move to windows 7.  Then I guess Id have no choice.

Microsoft is a commercial company, with limited resources. There will come a time, just as with Win2K, WinME, Win98, Win95, MS-DOS, Word6, Word2, etc etc etc, that support will be dropped in favor of the newer product.

Apple doesn't support System-7 any more, no matter how much I enjoyed using it. Debian doesn't release security updates for version 4.0 of their OS, even though you can still get it in its entirety if you want it.

It only makes sense, and I don't hold it against them. Software is a moving target.

What I don't like is the impression of the "upgrade treadmill" by which Microsoft cashes in every time they "force" an upgrade.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 26, 2009, 05:47:47 PM
Ooh, that's a lot of questions.

If I can find a way to install it from CD or from a USB stick I will. My computer's kind of finicky when it comes to installation DVDs.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 26, 2009, 05:52:36 PM
I would upgrade to RC 7, but I doubt I'll have an extra 150 bucks laying around to do it.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Libertarianssuck on July 26, 2009, 06:33:15 PM
u dont need 150 bucks just a good internet connection
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Cowcidile on July 26, 2009, 07:13:04 PM
You guys should call into free talk live and have your linux vs. windows slap fight on the show! That would be the best show ever!
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 26, 2009, 07:33:28 PM
You guys should call into free talk live and have your linux vs. windows slap fight on the show! That would be the best show ever!

There was Thursday, when a woman called in advocating Linux as being anti-Microsoft, and then there was the show on May 14th, for which I wrote a rebuttal:

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=29270.0

The problem that software is like trying to argue for your favorite car brand. What works for one person does not work for someone else. No matter how good my experience with Linux, for example, there are people whose experience is not as good or downright awful. And the same for Windows, Mac, whatever.

I recently read someone crowing about the dead-solid-reliability of the Commodore-64.

About the only real "freedom" argument is the freedom to choose. For the most part, we have that. My argument is that we have always had that, which makes the "monopoly" prosecution of Microsoft absurd.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: TimeLady Victorious on July 26, 2009, 10:06:07 PM
actually if I were running a PowerPC system I'd install AmigaOS on my comp

which uh, probably brings up a whole host of problems with a lot of other things, but I think it's neat
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 26, 2009, 10:24:00 PM
u dont need 150 bucks just a good internet connection
Pirating OS's is a lot less effective than pirating other software.

I realize its free for one year right now, but I don't want to get locked into it and then be forced to upgrade at a later date.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Bill Brasky on July 26, 2009, 10:42:01 PM
I'd never install a rip of Windows.

Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 26, 2009, 11:14:51 PM
I've used a "pirated" version of Windows XP for a while, because I didn't keep the original CD's and plus the "pirated" one came with the latest patches and drivers right on the setup disk.  (Could have been some trojans too, but after tens of thousands of downloads no one seemed to have found / reported any.)
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Libertarianssuck on July 27, 2009, 01:43:09 AM
I'd never install a rip of Windows.

Why not? I got vista that upgrades just fine and has no issues. Same with the xp i had before this. Plus they have modified versions as well to chose from. Whether you're looking for something with less junk you dont want or one loaded with everything you could need.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: FKnight on July 27, 2009, 02:44:48 AM
The endless hours of virus scanning, cleaning, reinstalling applications (which is going on as I type, oddly enough) to correct for Windows vulnerabilities, never seems to register to Windows defenders.

If you're spending endless hours scanning for viruses, I'm forced to wonder if you're not intentionally installing viruses just so you can scan for them.  I'm not saying you are, but doing regular scans for viruses, let alone countless hours, is simply not something that people do because even free virus scanners like AVG will intercept virus activity as it comes in.  I don't think I've ever performed a virus scan on my personal system and in the IT systems I've managed, I never performed a virus scan on any workstations or servers because they all had background processes which stop that kind of thing from happening.  I've never, ever had an infection.

The only reason to scan an entire system for a virus is if you're installing antivirus software after you think you've been infected, in which case you should just clean up and start over with antivirus installed first thing.  Regular virus scans aren't really something that has been done for over a decade, and even then they weren't "constant."  

As far as vulnerabilities go, I get a notification that updates are available, I click install (when I feel like it), it minimizes, and I continue with what I'm doing.  I don't even notice it.

Reinstalling applications?  I've never had to reinstall an application except when the application itself broke through either it's own internal update process or I've received instructions from the application vendor to do so for troubleshooting -- never anything to do with Windows.  The only time I ever go to the Add/Remove Programs applet (now Programs/Features in Vista) is when I don't want to ever use an application anymore and want to uninstall it.

When people say these things about Windows (constant virus scans, constant reinstalls of components to secure vulnerabilities, constantly reinstalling applications), I really have to wonder if they're not using some imitation OS brand that says "Whindose" or something, because these things simply don't happen -- or if they're still using Windows 98 and someone painted "XP" or "Vista" on the box without telling them.


Another major cause of constant reinstalls, constant virus scanning, and related activities is something people in the IT field call "voodoo troubleshooting" because the cause of an issue is not known and so assumptions are made (must be a virus, must be an update, etc.) -- especially since the entire tech support field (especially telephone support) has been filled with unqualified people who tell end-users to reinstall or virus scan for every problem under the sun.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 27, 2009, 02:08:45 PM
If you're spending endless hours scanning for viruses, I'm forced to wonder if you're not intentionally installing viruses just so you can scan for them.

Funny, but no. Just dealing with someone who will not stop using Internet Explorer on adware riddled Chinese web sites.

I'm very glad to hear you've had such a good experience. I haven't. Which, again, is something I fully accept without getting insulting and absurd.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 27, 2009, 02:22:54 PM
Insults and absurdity are a proud tradition on this forum, you bicameral platypus-tongued git!
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Bill Brasky on July 27, 2009, 03:35:09 PM
I'd never install a rip of Windows.

Why not? I got vista that upgrades just fine and has no issues. Same with the xp i had before this. Plus they have modified versions as well to chose from. Whether you're looking for something with less junk you dont want or one loaded with everything you could need.

Computers are expensive.  I'm not gonna risk the problems.  I download lots of stuff, but I want to be absolutely certain the OS works properly.  I also don't want M$ security reporting back to the mothership with a bogus ID#.  Admittedly, I'm not savvy enough to know exactly what M does behind the curtain, and how to be sure I've restricted all Windows activity swapping data with its servers, when it reaches out for updates and so-forth. 

So, I have whats factory installed.  It'll work fine for several more years.  If I get a new machine, it'll have Seven on it.  If I have to do any serious fixin', from a major crash, I'll just go buy it.  Its not unaffordable, its just not cheap. 
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: blackie on July 27, 2009, 09:36:34 PM
I haven't used any warez in several years.

I started doing that shit back in the Commodore 64 days with an acoustically coupled 300 baud modem that I shop lifed. I would also shoplift software by asking the clerk if I could look at a game box from the display case, take the 5.25" floppy, then give the box back. I don't know how I got away with that shit.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Floppy_disk_5.25_inch.JPG)

Leechers.

Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on July 28, 2009, 10:46:32 AM
To break with tradition again, I'm going back to the original subject.

I ran across an article today, suggesting to people who were thinking about upgrading to Win7, that they have an opportunity to try something else since they're going to be wiping their machines anyway:

Upgrading from Windows XP to a Linux desktop
July 27, 2009 at 5:04 pm — Bob Sutor (no relation to the SCOTUS)

http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=3802&cpage=1

FTA:
=====
According to Walter Mossberg over at the Wall Street Journal, the best way to upgrade from Microsoft Windows XP to Windows 7 is to backup your data, wipe your machine, and then reinstall your data.

But how will Windows users transition their current computers to the new Windows 7? While this latest operating system stresses simplicity, the upgrade process will be anything but simple for the huge base of average consumers still using XP, who likely outnumber Vista users. It will be frustrating, tedious and labor-intensive.

According to Mossberg, Microsoft is suggesting that you might just want to go ahead and buy a new computer with Windows 7 preinstalled.
=====

Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 28, 2009, 03:47:40 PM
Well, people do tend to buy new computers every 3-5 years.

And people who know what they're doing don't have to "wipe" anything, just create a new OS partition.  I still have a 7GB (compressed) Windows XP partition "just in case"...
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on July 29, 2009, 05:00:24 PM
Well, people do tend to buy new computers every 3-5 years.

And people who know what they're doing don't have to "wipe" anything, just create a new OS partition.  I still have a 7GB (compressed) Windows XP partition "just in case"...

Yup.  If you don't know what you're doing, you're probably gonna just buy a new system with the new OS on it anyways.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 14 on July 29, 2009, 06:54:44 PM
... and sell your old computer to someone who needs it more -- the first computer I had was pre-owned, because that's all that my parents could afford -- yaay capitalism!

Or hire a local geek to do the upgrade for you.  Or, if you're a girl, get a male geek to help you for free...  Ahh, that brings back memories...  :blush:

Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 18, 2009, 08:40:22 PM
From Slashdot -- XP Users Are Willing To Give Windows 7 a Chance (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/17/2151224/XP-Users-Are-Willing-To-Give-Windows-7-a-Chance) --

Quote
PC World and Technologizer conducted a survey of 5,000 people who use Windows XP as their primary operating system. Many have no plans to leave it, and 80% will be unhappy when Microsoft completely discontinues it. And attitudes towards Vista remain extremely negative. But a majority of those who know something about Windows 7 have a positive reaction.

More important, 70 percent of respondents who have used Windows 7 say they like it (http://technologizer.com/2009/08/17/windows-xp-users-on-windows-7/), which is a sign that Windows 7 stands a chance of being what Vista never was: an upgrade good enough to convince most XP users to switch.


And -- Windows 7 To Sell In UK For Half the US Price (http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/18/1931242/Windows-7-To-Sell-In-UK-For-Half-the-US-Price) --

Quote
In the UK, a full version of Windows 7 Home Premium is going to cost less than half the price Americans will have to pay (http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/0,39029471,49303374,00.htm), and in fact less than Americans have to pay just for the upgrade-only edition. Full details and prices were published in an article on CNet, in which it was concluded that, at least for the time being, Microsoft is honoring the prices it set for the now-discontinued European version of Win7, which did not contain Internet Explorer 8 and was only available as a full-install edition.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 21, 2009, 01:04:09 AM
From Slashdot -- Windows 7 Igniting Touchscreen PC Market (http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/08/21/0116243/Windows-7-Igniting-Touchscreen-PC-Market) --

Quote
Apple Inc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.) may still be coy about whether it plans to launch a touch-screen tablet computer this year, but Windows PC makers are forging right ahead.  In the past three weeks, five leading PC makers have announced (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9136910/Windows_7_The_OS_that_launches_a_thousand_touch_screen_PCs_) or been reported to confirm plans to release touch-screen PCs in time for the multi-touch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-touch)-enabled Windows 7, reports Computerworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computerworld).

Many appear to be using technology from New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_Zealand) optical touch vendor, NextWindow (http://www.nextwindow.com/), which already supplies HP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard)'s market-leading TouchSmart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_TouchSmart) line, and Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell)'s Studio One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Studio).  NextWindow's CEO says the company is working with partners on 8-10 products set for launch within two months, in time for Windows 7's October 22nd release.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on August 22, 2009, 07:14:02 PM
http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2009082200635OPCYMS

"Linux vs Windows 7"

I'm posting the link to the Linux Today pointer to the original article, because I find the comments on the Linux Today site very interesting.

Just in case "someone" thinks I'm posting this only as a Windows hit piece, this is from the article:

"There's little doubt that Windows 7 is a solid improvement over its predecessor, and we would guess that most Windows users who were previously reluctant to upgrade XP will be happy with Windows 7 running on a new machine. Windows' greatest asset is the variety of software available, and Microsoft is going to offer an XP compatibility mode as an add-on to Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate."

And a caveat:

"If you found Vista's hardware installation frustrating, you're likely to have the same problems with Windows 7."
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 22, 2009, 07:39:39 PM
Vista's hardware install frustrating?  Uhhh....  :shock: :shock: :shock:

It's been 99% plug and play for me.  And that one item that wasn't was as simple as right clicking a driver file and pressing "Install"
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: freeAgent on August 23, 2009, 03:58:12 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure what they're referring to when they trash on Vista's hardware installation process.  The article complains about installing their monitors, which isn't even necessary as far as I'm concerned.  That's just nitpicking.  I've never had a problem with Vista not installing hardware properly.  I've had a ton of issues with Linux not properly installing hardware, and not silly things like monitors but stuff that's actually important: video cards, network cards, sound cards, etc.  Sure, you can "blame" a lot of that on hardware manufacturers not supporting Linux, but that's not my problem.  I'm just the user.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 23, 2009, 04:00:49 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure what they're referring to when they trash on Vista's hardware installation process.  The article complains about installing their monitors, which isn't even necessary as far as I'm concerned.  That's just nitpicking.  I've never had a problem with Vista not installing hardware properly.  I've had a ton of issues with Linux not properly installing hardware, but not silly things like monitors, but stuff that's actually important: video cards, network cards, sound cards, etc.  Sure, you can "blame" a lot of that on hardware manufacturers not supporting Linux, but that's not my problem.  I'm just the user.
Same here.

What do you need to install a monitor for? 

Linux didn't like my ATI graphics.  It looked like it was installed properly but it ran at like 50% or less performance than Windows.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 24, 2009, 12:37:07 AM
Linux users have all been hypnotized.  After installing Linux, they go into a trance while they frantically find and compile device modules, modprobe, edit their xorg.conf, compile the latest version of the programs they want from source because their distro has older versions and installing new ones isn't as easy as on Windows, get used to Firefox and many other apps running slower / uglier than on Windows, forget how fast and powerful μTorrent is, etc, etc, etc.  They emerge from that trance a week later, completely unaware that any time has passed.  When installing Windows, however, they go into a different trance that involves disabling hardware devices, deleting system files at random, and downloading every virus / trojan they can find.  The socialist cabal has spent many years placing those zombies into every server room in the world.  When GPL v4 comes out proclaiming the end of all property rights -- wham -- the World-Wide Communist Revolution will be triggered!  :lol:
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on August 24, 2009, 04:13:52 PM
What do you need to install a monitor for? 

Funny thing. When I bought my wife her first LCD screen, it came with an install disk. Sure enough, when the "driver" for that particular monitor was installed in Windows, it had all the right settings and the correct available screen sizes, etc.

So "install a monitor", although a surprise to me too, did work and work very well. Since then any time I change external devices I make sure to see if the manufacturer has a "driver" for it.

Ah! Now I remember, it was a Proview monitor, and they still seem to provide the drivers even though their web site hasn't been updated since 2007. Uh-oh.

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Linux didn't like my ATI graphics.  It looked like it was installed properly but it ran at like 50% or less performance than Windows.

For some reason, the ATI graphics drivers being released for Linux are dragging seriously behind the Windows drivers. The only people who know why are ATI, I'm in the same boat right now myself. Did you ask them?

When GPL v4 comes out proclaiming the end of all property rights -- wham -- the World-Wide Communist Revolution will be triggered!

Funny. You do realize that the GPL strengthens property rights, by declaring that derivative works must acknowledge the upstream source? I'm surprised you'd bring that up, what with your stated preference for the BSD and other efforts which allow much greater latitude for derivative works without attribution or acknowledgement. Yet another page from the Microsoft astroturf handbook, obviously.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 24, 2009, 04:21:56 PM
The imaginary Microsoft AstroTurf Handbook is abbreviated MATH for your convenience.

We don't want you GPL-pushers to get CTS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome) and raise our tax burden.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on August 24, 2009, 05:36:04 PM
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Funny. You do realize that the GPL strengthens property rights

Total. Fucking. Fail.

Copyrights, all of it, period, is a government enforced monopoly on the use of ideas.

On the subject of OSes, I think I'm no longer a "Linux user" and am now a Windows user. I'll allow Linux two chances to redeem itself come November, before actually purchasing a Win7 license, but so far it's looking good for Microsoft.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: blackie on August 24, 2009, 06:06:23 PM
I upgraded one of my systems to 2GB of RAM so I can try out Win 7 on it. I've also got Ubuntu 9.04. I just need to back up the HD, then install.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 24, 2009, 11:49:41 PM

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Linux didn't like my ATI graphics.  It looked like it was installed properly but it ran at like 50% or less performance than Windows.

For some reason, the ATI graphics drivers being released for Linux are dragging seriously behind the Windows drivers. The only people who know why are ATI, I'm in the same boat right now myself. Did you ask them?


No I didn't bother to ask them about it, and I didn't really care either.  I could perhaps understand running linux on a server or a low powered desktop, but not on my high end desktop.  It's really just not worth my time.  And it underutilizes one of my most expensive parts (my 4850 HD).
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on August 25, 2009, 08:41:41 AM
I could perhaps understand running linux on a server or a low powered desktop, but not on my high end desktop.

I would say the same thing about Windows. After all, except for the games and esoteric business apps that are written such that they will only run on Windows (and therefore also endangered most by such revamps as XP-SP2 what a nightmare that was!) there's no reason to be spending scarce resources running Windows.

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It's really just not worth my time.  And it underutilizes one of my most expensive parts (my 4850 HD).

Part of optimizing is knowing what hardware works best. Let ATI lose some margin over not providing good Linux drivers, they'll come around pretty quick.

That's the beauty of a free market. Everyone has a choice.

I like minimizing the overhead of the OS so that the "high end" is available for apps. It's the same basic reasoning as on a low-end machine.

I guess it's like college. If all you're doing is partying, no need to be efficient.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: freeAgent on August 25, 2009, 08:57:35 AM
I could perhaps understand running linux on a server or a low powered desktop, but not on my high end desktop.

I would say the same thing about Windows. After all, except for the games and esoteric business apps that are written such that they will only run on Windows (and therefore also endangered most by such revamps as XP-SP2 what a nightmare that was!) there's no reason to be spending scarce resources running Windows.

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It's really just not worth my time.  And it underutilizes one of my most expensive parts (my 4850 HD).

Part of optimizing is knowing what hardware works best. Let ATI lose some margin over not providing good Linux drivers, they'll come around pretty quick.

That's the beauty of a free market. Everyone has a choice.

I like minimizing the overhead of the OS so that the "high end" is available for apps. It's the same basic reasoning as on a low-end machine.

I guess it's like college. If all you're doing is partying, no need to be efficient.

Come on now.  I would say that Windows is also better for using the internet, since it's easier to find browser plugins for media, not to mention drivers to actually operate NICs.  It's also better for media because Linux doesn't support a lot of Dolby stuff.  Besides games, business apps, watching movies, and using the internet, I'm not sure what most home users are doing on their computers.

"Knowing what hardware works best" is a pretty silly argument.  Sure, if you choose Linux you have to be incredibly conscious of what hardware you're putting in your machine.  However, that is a limitation you face when running Linux, not Windows.  Windows will work with pretty much anything you throw at it, by comparison.  And it will work well unless the hardware is defective.  As far as speed goes, I've never noticed much difference between the two.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Bill Brasky on August 25, 2009, 01:18:38 PM
Besides games, business apps, watching movies, and using the internet, I'm not sure what most home users are doing on their computers.


I've been asking this for the last two years, and I can't get a solid answer.  It seems they're doing some very sophisticated, top secret shit which nobody will admit to. 

I'm currently running a java-based application with streaming data, including a little live TV window, I could run Azureus if I wasn't leaching, several windows open, and I'm peaking at about 18% CPU with normal performance ranging around 9%.  Windows itself isn't jittery at all.  I usually run like this for about a week, then have to reboot - only because it starts looking kinda choppy, it doesn't crash. 

My last machine handled this kind of use on XP, and it was about five years old. 

Someone, at some point, will bring up "Games!"  Get a friggin PS3

Jay was the only one who provided a genuine answer to the question, in another thread regarding Mac a while back.  He says Mac handles his digital recording better.  I could believe that, after all, its his recordings.  He should know.  Other than that, the Leet and Bones Society has not included me in their newsletter. 
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on August 25, 2009, 03:10:14 PM
Come on now.  I would say that Windows is also better for using the internet, since it's easier to find browser plugins for media, not to mention drivers to actually operate NICs.  It's also better for media because Linux doesn't support a lot of Dolby stuff.

My experience is the exact opposite. The DRM that is being built into Windows means that I cannot play media on Windows that I can by not using Windows. I have DVDs I bought while living out of the country. If not for Linux, I could not view them because they're not Region-1.

And as far as browsing goes, it's Windows that has made it necessary for Google to warn people "This site may damage your computer!"

Yes, browser plug-ins for media are more available for Windows, but again that's not a "Windows" issue. 3rd party software producers are not writing their products for other platforms.

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Besides games, business apps, watching movies, and using the internet, I'm not sure what most home users are doing on their computers.

Porn?

But seriously, it's which games, which business apps, what movies, what sites, etc. After all, what do YOU use it for?

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"Knowing what hardware works best" is a pretty silly argument.  Sure, if you choose Linux you have to be incredibly conscious of what hardware you're putting in your machine.

No more than what one must go through when buying hardware to install anything other than the Windows that came on it.

A friend of mine, back in 2003, wanted to use Win2K on his new machine that came with WinXP. I honestly don't think he ever got everything working, tracking down drivers was very difficult since he couldn't get usable hardware version information out of either XP or 2K. So we used a Knoppix bootCD because Linux not only drove the hardware just fine, it reported the chipset/versions so he could find what was available for Win2K.

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However, that is a limitation you face when running Linux, not Windows.  Windows will work with pretty much anything you throw at it, by comparison.  And it will work well unless the hardware is defective.

As my example above demonstrates, those are three false statements.

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As far as speed goes, I've never noticed much difference between the two.

Isn't it wonderful you have that choice?


Windows itself isn't jittery at all.  I usually run like this for about a week, then have to reboot - only because it starts looking kinda choppy, it doesn't crash.

Yep, the Windows "therapeutic reboot". Had to do it on servers in many places I've worked too, not just desktop systems.

Desktops are actually less likely to need it, since they "usually" get turned off at night. So most folks don't see the slowly-getting-worse symptoms.

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Someone, at some point, will bring up "Games!"  Get a friggin PS3

Already brought up, I assure you. It's usually number 1 in a Windows vs. EverythingElse discussion.

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Jay was the only one who provided a genuine answer to the question, in another thread regarding Mac a while back.  He says Mac handles his digital recording better.  I could believe that, after all, its his recordings.  He should know.  Other than that, the Leet and Bones Society has not included me in their newsletter.

Macs are very, very well integrated. They'd better be, for the price! I used a Quadra when they were new, and that was a fun, fun, fun machine. Mac System 7 was a great operating system, too. Lots of overhead, true, but the developers used it for integration so things all looked the same and worked together. There certainly is a place for such integration, likely why I'm happy running KDE.

BTW, if you have any PowerPC Macs that seem to have been made obsolete by Apple's choice to go Wintel-hardware, Linux runs really well on those PowerPC. I remember the last time I installed it on a SPARC, it was amazing how much that "antiquated" hardware could do.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on August 25, 2009, 07:20:44 PM
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Let ATI lose some margin over not providing good Linux drivers, they'll come around pretty quick.

That's the beauty of a free market. Everyone has a choice.

You keep failing, huh?

ATI's parent company, AMD, was sputtering in it's death throes. They reorganized by splitting their chip design and fabrication companies in two and TAKING A HEFTY SUM from... get this... the goverment of Dubai.

I don't call government-subsidized anything "free market". It also calls into question one of your other points:

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Let ATI lose some margin over not providing good Linux drivers, they'll come around pretty quick.

This has been happening for years. THey've NEVER provided decent drivers of Linux, and it's pretty obvious they have no plans to, having provided documentation to the Xorg developers to write their own damn drivers... that'll be here "any day now (tm)"

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I guess it's like college. If all you're doing is partying, no need to be efficient.

I can see dismissing games (but even then, it's a difference in priorities, but not value) but you included "high end business apps". I will agree with you that FOSS apps can do about 99% of the things that proprietary, big ticket apps can. But if you've ever spent any time in a production environment in once of many industries, you'd see that the 1% it doesn't do is relevant to about 60% of work flow.

Case in point, the printing industry. GIMP couldn't handle CMYK for years and still can't handle LAB values for color. These are basic things in any printing shop slightly better than FedEx Office on training day. When you can toss out a single feature that rules out an entire industry, that's a glaring weakness, and ventures into the realm of "not partying". And believe me, with the overpriced apps that DO have these features, there's tons and tons of incentive to go with reliable, FOSS replacements. They simply don't exist.

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I would say that Windows is also better for using the internet, since it's easier to find browser plugins for media

I'd say that installing VLC is about as easy on Windows as on Linux, so I think this is a tie, if not a slight advantage towards Linux. And unless you're referring to Windows 7, there's not even a comparison with NICs between Linux and Windows. XP and Vista don't find the intel ICH7 chipset which is used in almost every Intel board and has been out long enough that Vista could/should have installed it by default. Windows 7 even flawlessly detects and runs my Atheros9 wifi chipset but I've heard reports of people with pretty common hardware that didn't have a working NIC. NIC compat goes to Linux, hands down, IMO.

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However, that is a limitation you face when running Linux, not Windows.  Windows will work with pretty much anything you throw at it, by comparison.  And it will work well unless the hardware is defective.  As far as speed goes, I've never noticed much difference between the two.

I've got a scanner at work that runs fine with Windows XP and Linux, but not with Vista. The reason for this is that it's a cheap Taiwanese company that replaced it with a slightly upgraded model and dropped support. They never released a 64-bit driver for it and it was incompatible in 32-bit mode. Linux had a SANE plugin and it works just fine on 32 and 64 bit distros.

Windows having better support is about as wrong as saying that "Linux does..". There's a lot of Windows on a lot of architectures and some fail pretty badly, worst than Linux. The variable is why it fails.

Anybody who thinks that it's acceptible NOT to be choosy about hardware is someone you do NOT want building you a computer. They don't know what the hell they're doing - operating system is irrelevant.

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As far as speed goes, I've never noticed much difference between the two.

I've got to agree here with a caveat. Most well-featured distros (Ubuntu, Suse) are about as slow as Windows 7. Sure, you can get a blazing fast Linux PC if you wanna use Dillo as your browser and run twm with a console log in instead of a greeter... and after you rebuild world to optimize for your architecture's instruction set and eliminate unwanted use flags.

If flexibility matters, Linux wins. If desktop usability matters, you can expect a decently bloated system that will, for 99% of it's existence, be loading useless crap into memory so it's there the second you want it regardless of what OS you use.

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The DRM that is being built into Windows means that I cannot play media on Windows that I can by not using Windows.

Still more fail. :)

Windows, being the most used OS by home users, is the most popular target for open source software development. VLC's various codecs install on Windows with a few clicks, and open damn near any file that a standard Linux repo's will handle.

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If not for Linux, I could not view them because they're not Region-1.

libdvdcss was written by the VLC people, works on Windows and ignores region.

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And as far as browsing goes, it's Windows that has made it necessary for Google to warn people "This site may damage your computer!"

Actually, I think that's the result of dumb ass people being on the internet. Those kinds of stupid features are gradually making their way into Linux as more and more "average people" start using it (try rm -rf / in bash... Your Linux system, on most distros, no longer does as you tell it to and will actually ignore your command! How's that for control?)

It's not even a root/non-root thing. Windows UAC is actually pretty decent on Vista and 7 in terms of isolating system changes from the user. The problem, even with Linux users, is that they can be convinced they WANT to give malicious application X permission to run as root/admin.

No OS can eliminate PEBKAC errors.

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Yep, the Windows "therapeutic reboot". Had to do it on servers in many places I've worked too, not just desktop systems.

In fairness, this is an apples-to-oranges thing. On Linux, there's no "third party vendors" to blame, unless you happen to be running an nVidia driver or something. Windows itself it actually pretty damn stable. Every crash or BSOD I've had has come as a result of a crappy driver or dying hardware, not Windows itself. With WIndows, you run the risk of being hosed by crappy third party support. On Linux, you run the risk of NO third party support. Which way would you prefer to be screwed is the question, since there's no "unscrewed" unless you feel like writing your own drivers which well... isn't a typical use case. And if you DO, would you please write a functional equivalent for fglrx on Linux using an Radeon HD 3200 chipset? kthx.

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There certainly is a place for such integration, likely why I'm happy running KDE.

Operating system integration has it's place and my shorts have orange icing crumbs on them from my breakfast. Like your above statement, the two aren't related in the SLIGHTEST. Unless you intended to imply that KDE is somehow integrated, in which I'd respond with "Amarok 2 and Kopete Interfaces" and you'd be unable to return a cogent retort. And to your non-cogent reply, I'll reference the fact that KDE fails to detect composite capability in many composite-ready chipsets, refuses to activate desktop effects and proceeds to crash more often that hijacked planes on 9/11.

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BTW, if you have any PowerPC Macs that seem to have been made obsolete by Apple's choice to go Wintel-hardware, Linux runs really well on those PowerPC.

Until it eats your bootloader and doesn't know what the fuck to do with New World partitions. And if by "runs really well" you mean "allows you to tinker for hours before getting tired and going to bed, to retry the same thing the next morning until you realize you're late for work and go, leaving the problem to be 'solved' later that evening with a reinstall you creatively justify to yourself."

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I remember the last time I installed it on a SPARC, it was amazing how much that "antiquated" hardware could do.

Yeah, it plays those new, fancy YouTube videos pretty well... oh, wait... YouTube isn't new. And oh, shit, SPARC doesn't have a Flash plugin. But it's okay, you can install swfdec or Gnash.

Which is great if the ONLY Flash you'll be watching is YouTube. And the videos you watch don't need reliable sound.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 25, 2009, 07:57:09 PM
One thing I'd like to add - you can't talk about the performance of a desktop operating system without talking about the performance of the available applications, and that's where Windows blows Linux away.  There's just far more good programmers writing apps for fame or profit, and focusing on an OS with >90% market share is obviously a good idea.

For example, I'm always frustrated by the absence of a good BitTorrent client in Linux: mldonkey is missing features, ktorrent and azureus are slow / buggy as hell, and there are two dozen other clients written in python that just don't cut it.  I couldn't get Ubuntu to juggle 100 torrents at once, much less also be able to play video at the same time - Windows 7 does all this and more.

Firefox and Opera run faster on Windows than Linux, and if you want to go even faster there's Safari and Chrome, and if you come across a site that requires IE then it's right there in its native environment.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on August 27, 2009, 02:21:27 PM
Kevin, I'm amazed. It's like you just aren't reading what I wrote.

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Let ATI lose some margin over not providing good Linux drivers, they'll come around pretty quick.

That's the beauty of a free market. Everyone has a choice.

You keep failing, huh?

No, this is ATI's failure. Or rather, as you point out, AMD's.

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I don't call government-subsidized anything "free market". It also calls into question one of your other points:

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Let ATI lose some margin over not providing good Linux drivers, they'll come around pretty quick.

This has been happening for years. THey've NEVER provided decent drivers of Linux, and it's pretty obvious they have no plans to, having provided documentation to the Xorg developers to write their own damn drivers... that'll be here "any day now (tm)"

And this "brings into question" what about my point that AMD deserves to lose customers because of not providing decent drivers?

As far as I can tell, all you're doing is pointing out that they deserve to lose customers.

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I guess it's like college. If all you're doing is partying, no need to be efficient.

I can see dismissing games...

I am not dismissing games. I'm pointing out that one very good reason for using one OS and not another is applications that run on one OS and not another.

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...but you included "high end business apps".

Yes. There are many specialized high end business apps that only run on Windows. That's a good reason to use Windows.

So again, I'm left wondering just why you object to my saying so, when all you do is repeat what I've already said?

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And believe me, with the overpriced apps that DO have these features, there's tons and tons of incentive to go with reliable, FOSS replacements. They simply don't exist.

Exactly. One good reason for choosing one OS over another are applications that are written for one rather than the other.

That said, F/OSS continues to commoditize applications (graphics, office, Operating System) that used to be specialized and proprietary.

Either the software houses will adapt, by coming up with better or more specialized packages and selling them, or they will fail. Microsoft's clinging onto Windows is a perfect example of "grasping at straws", trying to hold onto a proprietary product whose niche has already become a commodity.

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I'd say that installing VLC is about as easy on Windows as on Linux...

and

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Windows, being the most used OS by home users, is the most popular target for open source software development. VLC's various codecs install on Windows with a few clicks, and open damn near any file that a standard Linux repo's will handle.

and

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libdvdcss was written by the VLC people, works on Windows and ignores region.

All you're doing is reiterating that F/OSS can solve many problems that proprietary software does not solve. Something I'm trying to point out. So again, and again, all you're doing is disagreeing in order to agree with me.

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Still more fail. :)

Not if you had read what I wrote. You're failing the reading test, that's obvious.

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And as far as browsing goes, it's Windows that has made it necessary for Google to warn people "This site may damage your computer!"

Actually, I think that's the result of dumb ass people being on the internet.

Then I'm left to wonder how you rationalize that they are Windows-only vulnerabilities.

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(try rm -rf / in bash... Your Linux system, on most distros, no longer does as you tell it to and will actually ignore your command! How's that for control?)

Control of what? Obviously, that's not a distribution I'm going to run.

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No OS can eliminate PEBKAC errors.

Then why are you bringing it up?

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Yep, the Windows "therapeutic reboot". Had to do it on servers in many places I've worked too, not just desktop systems.

In fairness, this is an apples-to-oranges thing. On Linux, there's no "third party vendors" to blame, unless you happen to be running an nVidia driver or something. Windows itself it actually pretty damn stable.

Indeed, if I install nothing else, and run no applications, Windows just sits there. Stable.

Maybe my comparison was not so obtuse after all. That is, assuming you read it.

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On Linux, you run the risk of NO third party support. Which way would you prefer to be screwed is the question, since there's no "unscrewed" unless you feel like writing your own drivers which well... isn't a typical use case. And if you DO, would you please write a functional equivalent for fglrx on Linux using an Radeon HD 3200 chipset? kthx.

Didn't you just get done thrashing ATI/AMD for their practices, and now you're asking for a new driver for their video card? Please, which way do you want this? You say "fail" because I bring ATI up, now you bring ATI up.

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There certainly is a place for such integration, likely why I'm happy running KDE.

Operating system integration has it's place and my shorts have orange icing crumbs on them from my breakfast.

Excuse me, you didn't read what I wrote again.

I was talking about SOFTWARE INTEGRATION of LOOK AND FEEL. Nothing what so ever to do with integration with the OS. KDE runs just fine on BSD, Linux, Solaris, I understand they're even porting it to Windows.

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Like your above statement, the two aren't related in the SLIGHTEST.

That's because you're not reading what I wrote.

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Unless you intended to imply that KDE is somehow integrated, in which I'd respond with "Amarok 2 and Kopete Interfaces" and you'd be unable to return a cogent retort. And to your non-cogent reply, I'll reference the fact that KDE fails to detect composite capability in many composite-ready chipsets, refuses to activate desktop effects and proceeds to crash more often that hijacked planes on 9/11.

All very relevant to KDE development. I was talking about look and feel, and I don't use Amarok 2 or Kopete. Gee, that looks like a cogent retort. Does this mean you "fail"?

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And if by "runs really well" you mean...

No. I mean exactly what I said.

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I remember the last time I installed it on a SPARC, it was amazing how much that "antiquated" hardware could do.

Yeah, it plays those new, fancy YouTube videos pretty well... oh, wait... YouTube isn't new. And oh, shit, SPARC doesn't have a Flash plugin. But it's okay, you can install swfdec or Gnash.

YouTube wasn't an issue, because I was working it as a web/email/ftp/ntp/dns/etc server. Something SPARC hardware has always lended itself to, since it tends to run, and run, and run...

I also don't sit there bitching about dual 50MHz CPUs not decoding YouTube videos well enough. Just like I wasn't talking about GUI integration into the OS.

This comes back again to choosing hardware AND software that fits ones needs and uses, and not blaming one for the failings of the other. You would understand that if you would read what I write.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on August 27, 2009, 06:40:50 PM
I ask this in ALL seriousness, because I'm not sure if you're doing it intentionally, to be difficult, or if you REALLY don't see that you're doing it. I was once a FOSS Fanboy (Google "Kevin Dean Linux" and Free Software is predominant among the hits) and I used sneaky shit like that too. I've since realized it's at the very heart of why Linux people do a piss poor job of selling Linux to others, because they manage to have long conversations, and not even talk about what the other person is.

In just about every instance, including some where I wrote WHY I dispute your claims, you identify the OTHER point, and use it as if I'm wrong. For example:

Quote
ATI's parent company, AMD, was sputtering in it's death throes. They reorganized by splitting their chip design and fabrication companies in two and TAKING A HEFTY SUM from... get this... the goverment of Dubai.

I don't call government-subsidized anything "free market".

This should be clear - my dispute is with the claim that AMD is engaged in free market competition. I then explained why. I then made the mental leap that, being subsidized by a government, they have LESS incentive to respond to market signals such as people boycotting their devices for lack of driver support.

Quote
As far as I can tell, all you're doing is pointing out that they deserve to lose customers.

I agree with this point, fully, but it wasn't the topic at hand.

Here's yet another example of where you do that subtle "shift":

Quote
All you're doing is reiterating that F/OSS can solve many problems that proprietary software does not solve.

I wasn't talking about FOSS vs non-FOSS and until I proved your wrong, neither were you. I was refuting your claim that you couldn't play certain media, and I quite "without Linux".

Quote
Then I'm left to wonder how you rationalize that they are Windows-only vulnerabilities.

Point and counterpoint. Some people think incorrectly that one must propose the alternative in order to refute a point, but those folks are wrong. You made a statement, that Windows is the reason Google issues warnings as if Windows and not poor system adminstration, is the reason for said warnings. I refuted a negative trait you incorrectly applied to Windows. I did not make the claim, in fact the opposite, that other OSes did not have this trait.

Quote
Didn't you just get done thrashing ATI/AMD for their practices, and now you're asking for a new driver for their video card? Please, which way do you want this?

Again, that whole "shifting" thing. I don't want a driver for AMD's video card, I want a driver for MY video card. You also seem to be confused by the whole "time" concept. The fact that I PREVIOUSLY purchased an AMD chipset doesn't imply agreement with policy adopted AFTER the purchase.

Quote
Excuse me, you didn't read what I wrote again.

I was talking about SOFTWARE INTEGRATION of LOOK AND FEEL. Nothing what so ever to do with integration with the OS.

I'll work on reading shit that isn't there, will you commit to explaining yourself when you're speaking of a subset of things within the greater set mentioned in the conversation?

Macs aren't JUST software integration of look and feel, but includes integration between hardware and software capabilities which is the very purpose of an operating system.

Quote
I don't use Amarok 2 or Kopete

The fact that you don't use them is irrelevant. Both are official KDE projects with dissimilar interfaces.

Quote
This comes back again to choosing hardware AND software that fits ones needs and uses, and not blaming one for the failings of the other. You would understand that if you would read what I write.

I do read what you write. I'm fluent in English as well. Hell, I even agree with you, that evaluation of needs both from hardware and software are VITAL to having a positive, producitve outcome. I even agree that bolstering or challenging one is not disparaging or lauding the other. It seems to me that your writing, if it factors this in, fails to communicate it effectively, as I've explained with specific cases above.

With that, your last post and my opinions agree in general on the question of "Which OS is better" with the answer being "The one that meets your needs".
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: FKnight on August 27, 2009, 06:41:20 PM
Quote
I'd say that installing VLC is about as easy on Windows as on Linux...

and

Quote
Windows, being the most used OS by home users, is the most popular target for open source software development. VLC's various codecs install on Windows with a few clicks, and open damn near any file that a standard Linux repo's will handle.

and

Quote
libdvdcss was written by the VLC people, works on Windows and ignores region.

All you're doing is reiterating that F/OSS can solve many problems that proprietary software does not solve. Something I'm trying to point out. So again, and again, all you're doing is disagreeing in order to agree with me.

No, actually all he was doing was pointing out that your contention that you can't play off-region DVDs in Windows is patently false.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 27, 2009, 08:33:31 PM
It takes 5 minutes to install VLC and a codec pack like K-Lite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-Lite_Codec_Pack) on Windows, and then you get the best of both worlds.  On Linux, on there other hand, there are some things w32codecs just won't play, and the quality is worse.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 27, 2009, 11:15:53 PM
It takes 5 minutes to install VLC and a codec pack like K-Lite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-Lite_Codec_Pack) on Windows, and then you get the best of both worlds.  On Linux, on there other hand, there are some things w32codecs just won't play, and the quality is worse.

More like 30 seconds, and I prefer CCCP to k-lite any day.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 27, 2009, 11:36:15 PM
Yeah, CCCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Community_Codec_Pack) is tighter and easier to configure, I just don't like the name.  :lol:
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on August 28, 2009, 04:49:11 PM
No, actually all he was doing was pointing out that your contention that you can't play off-region DVDs in Windows is patently false.

I will gladly grant that by using F/OSS rather than Microsoft's and other's legally licensed media players, it's possible to watch off-region DVDs on Windows.

But with the Windows player, you can't.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: freeAgent on August 28, 2009, 09:38:57 PM
I watch any region DVDs I want on Windows...inside Windows Media Player.  Or any other player for that matter.  It's called AnyDVD.  There are a plethora of other tools available as well, and it is incredibly easy.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith) on August 28, 2009, 09:41:20 PM
I watch any region DVDs I want on Windows...inside Windows Media Player.  Or any other player for that matter.  It's called AnyDVD.  There are a plethora of other tools available as well, and it is incredibly easy.
Yeah I was gonna say I haven't had any problems with straight DVD rips I've downloaded that are from foreign regions, although I was guessing that it was possible that the claim was true and the regions were just eradicated in the rip even though they were ISOs.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on August 29, 2009, 12:40:21 AM
Who watches DVD's nowadays anyway?  It takes less time to download a movie than to stop at Blockbuster!  Stop feeding Big Content (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Content)!  Oh, shit, the Wikipedia article on Big Content was deleted.....  WIKIPEDIA IS BIG CONTENT TOO!!!

/me runs around in circles, then grasps his chest and collapses.

Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: freeAgent on August 29, 2009, 12:40:40 AM
AnyDVD does it on the fly and doesn't even require ripping.  For that matter, you can patch the firmware on your DVD drive and remove region code support from it.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on August 29, 2009, 03:05:57 PM
...and the regions were just eradicated in the rip even though they were ISOs.

One of those wonderful insanities of the wanna-be monopolists. First, they create region codes to try to prevent cheaper selling prices in country A from taking away from over-priced sales in country B, with the excuse that it's to "fight piracy", then they put Region-0 (zero) in the spec which will play anywhere.

It's astounding the mental elasticity of the control freak. Maybe those who say desire for "power over others" is a mental disorder are right.

I'm glad to know that the non-Redmond programmers have been hard at work undermining the control freaks. Bully for them!
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: blackie on September 04, 2009, 10:53:44 PM
I have a triple boot going with Windows XP pro, Windows 7, and Ubuntu 9.04 on an older desktop system.

It's a Shuttle XPC SB51G (http://eu.shuttle.com/archive/en/fb51_neon.htm) / 2GB RAM /  All-in-Wonder Radeon 8500DV (http://ati.amd.com/products/radeon8500/Aiwradeon8500DV/index.html)

Windows XP pro is fine. The video card has all of it's functionality, and support. It ran OK with 512 MB RAM.

Windows 7 only recognizes the video card as standard VGA. I can't find a working driver for Windows 7. I needed to grab an update from Microsoft to get the NetGear WN111v2 working. The windows experience or whatever is rated as 1 because of the video.

Ubuntu is still having intermittent issues with video, and I haven't gotten the WN111v2 working yet.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: FKnight on September 07, 2009, 11:35:41 AM
I'm glad to know that the non-Redmond programmers have been hard at work undermining the control freaks. Bully for them!

It should be noted that Microsoft would likely have been very happy to include built in DVD playback without needing to adhere to the DRM requirements.  Unfortunately, being as big as they are, the media companies would have sued them to the point where you wouldn't be able to play DVDs at all in Windows.

In other words, Microsoft could take out DRM tomorrow -- the problem is they'd have to also take out DVD playback completely.  Blame the media companies.  Microsoft, unlike people's favorite Linux distributions, doesn't have the luxury of ignoring either civil or criminal law.

Hell, as far as Europe is concerned, they're lucky Microsoft's allowed to include a CLOCK.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: freeAgent on September 07, 2009, 11:26:12 PM
Getting slightly back on topic...I'm on Windows 7 Professional (64-bit) now.  It's nice:  much better than Vista...and XP ;)
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: BobRobertson on September 09, 2009, 09:15:43 AM
I have to wonder at anyone who would say "Zero day" in reference to VISTA. Gee, it's been out for a while, folks.

As they say in the cop shows, "Be careful out there."



http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-340020.html?tag=nl.e589

"A security researcher has said there is a zero-day vulnerability affecting Windows 7 and Vista.

"The flaw in Windows 7 could allow an attack which would cause a critical system error, or "Blue Screen of Death", according to researcher Laurent Gaffie."
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Alex Libman 15 on September 09, 2009, 09:51:33 AM
I have forgotten what a "Blue Screen of Death" looks like.  Haven't seen one in many years.

Kernel Oops on the other hand...  :lol:

Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: Kevin Freeheart on September 09, 2009, 06:00:15 PM
Zero day usually refers to the time between the publication (or semi-public disclosure) and patch or fix. It's not a measure of how long the bug has existed.

Quote
It's nice:  much better than Vista...and XP

Vista, on decent hardware and with SP1 or greater, is a decent OS. Much more stable than XP. Windows 7 blows Vista out of the water. I can't describe how hard it sucks to use XP after using 7.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: digitalfour on September 09, 2009, 06:38:26 PM
Windows 7 is slick.
Title: Re: Any Windows users NOT switching to 7 RC?
Post by: EternityAblaze on September 10, 2009, 12:03:09 AM
I'm upgrading finally to Windows 7 Professional.  w00t.