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An eye for an eye? Does anyone have the right to kill a murderer in revenge?

Yes
No

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Author Topic: An eye for an eye?  (Read 18274 times)

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DogOn

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2008, 05:48:01 PM »

I'm not only justifying revenge killing for rape, I'm justifying torture. Am I a sick mother fucker? Sure. I've never denied it.

Still not seeming like a whole lot of reason on the side of aggressive revenge.

If someone kills/rapes then its okay to kill them is a non sequitur, any assumed logic doesn't mean shit unless you can back it up.

taking pride in mindless violence is no good thing
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Taors

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2008, 06:23:12 PM »

I'm not only justifying revenge killing for rape, I'm justifying torture. Am I a sick mother fucker? Sure. I've never denied it.

Still not seeming like a whole lot of reason on the side of aggressive revenge.

If someone kills/rapes then its okay to kill them is a non sequitur, any assumed logic doesn't mean shit unless you can back it up.

taking pride in mindless violence is no good thing

What has to be done, has to be done.
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hellbilly

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2008, 08:20:51 PM »

I'm totally with In The Light on this.

Violent offenders should be dealt with severely.

Executioners probably don't always like what they do, but it's a service we all benefit from.

I think earlier in the thread someone mentioned their dad being the offender whom was then killed with revenge as the motive.. if my dad was revealed as being without a doubt a rapist or murderer, it would be extremely difficult for me to stick to my guns on this one, but I would. A useless human is just that- kill the unprovoked violent offenders as long as their is no doubt regarding their guilt.
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2008, 09:40:36 PM »

Now if a guy takes out one of your eyes, and you would like restitution in the form of having the guys eye taken out
Take my eye out, I take your head off.
Do it Flinter style
(reference to An Enemy of the State by F. Paul Wilson)
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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2008, 09:42:20 PM »

If I rape your daughter do you get to rape mine?
No, I get to kill you and hide the body.

I don't need a system to help me.

My logic: Making the world a better place.


So the same logic of welfare, the holocaust, lynching, forced sterilization and a bunch of other really shitty ideas?

For everyone who's so sure that they'll do the right thing in revenge murdering, no ones said much beyond their will to revenge kill and how right it is.

I'm sure some of you might have some good reasons, but all I've seen so far is emotion, blood lust, "I will" and "I'm going to" which is not enough reason for any belief. Unless you think morals are purely subjective you need bigger basis for a belief other than "its whats right" and "eye for an eye". If you can justify murder for rape, why not 10 brutal assaults? Subjective morals are a dangerous thing.
Are you seriously as insane as to suggest that the Holocaust was caused because of "An Eye for an Eye"?  What in the hell did the millions of Jews and others do to deserve going to concentration camps for?  If it had really been "An Eye for an Eye" the Nazi government would have collapsed before it ever was able to invade half of Europe!
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"Do not throw rocks at people with guns." —Hastings' Third Law
"Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today." —Herman Wouk 

"If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

BonerJoe

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2008, 09:47:48 PM »

What in the hell did the millions of Jews and others do to deserve going to concentration camps for? 

Being smarter than the goyim with money.
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DogOn

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2008, 12:34:51 PM »

Are you seriously as insane as to suggest that the Holocaust was caused because of "An Eye for an Eye"?  What in the hell did the millions of Jews and others do to deserve going to concentration camps for?  If it had really been "An Eye for an Eye" the Nazi government would have collapsed before it ever was able to invade half of Europe!

Nope, you completely missed my point.

Blackie said his logic for revenge killing was making the world a better place. So was the holocaust.

 Now there are other reasons that make an action good or bad, obviously what you consider making the world a better place has has alot to do with it.

My whole point was that everyone on the pro side of revenge killing is keeping in these fringe pools of logic, "its right" "try and stop me" etc, without going into any deeper moral reasoning.

Way to make my point on people not putting enough effort into the discussion to make it worthwhile though.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 01:12:02 PM by fatcat »
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DogOn

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2008, 12:41:39 PM »

I'm not only justifying revenge killing for rape, I'm justifying torture. Am I a sick mother fucker? Sure. I've never denied it.

Still not seeming like a whole lot of reason on the side of aggressive revenge.

If someone kills/rapes then its okay to kill them is a non sequitur, any assumed logic doesn't mean shit unless you can back it up.

taking pride in mindless violence is no good thing

What has to be done, has to be done.

Sure....

Is anyone actually listening to what I'm saying here?

I AM FULLY AWARE SOME PEOPLE THINK ITS THE RIGHT THING.

I'm not asking for clarification, I'm not asking for you to berate anyone not in favor of your viewpoint as weak or spineless. I'm not asking for you to point out how manly you are and if anyone ever touched your family in a split second, you'd cut his balls off and take out his eyes and all kinds of stuff!

I'm asking for some deeper logical basis for murder being okay as revenge (not talking about killing in self defense).

Take out your thinking caps, re read the parts of this thread where I actually make points for you to defend, then come back to the table. All your justifications can be made for nearly anything, because they are merely logical window dressing on assumptions that it is correct, without any deeper reasoned discussion, my whole point with the holocaust analogy.

The belief of murdering in revenge, is usually emotionally/biologically driven, and inherited through parents/local culture, if by the age you accepted the belief you knew you hadn't done the thinking necessary to back it, then I'd be worried that you're so sure and so unwilling/unable to give any higher justification than [blank] and you deserve to be [blanked].

The people saying they kill over rape are near the edge of full blown mindless psychopathy. 2 brutal assaults are far worse than 1 quick rape, so by that logic its now okay to kill over assault. Now I'm sure some of you feel really badly about getting raped, personally i'd rather get raped than break an arm, so is your right to revenge purely a subjective drive to how you feel?

None of this really matters because none of you have said anything for me to actually think about or discuss.

If you think just reiterating your will to kill and how right it is without a how or why is justifying your belief, then you're fucking insane. Take Mr emotion off the wheel of your brain ship and do some thinking.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 01:03:54 PM by fatcat »
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BonerJoe

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2008, 01:00:42 PM »

Is anyone actually listening to what I'm saying here?

NO.

Logic almost never applies to the real world. Start living outside of your head.
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DogOn

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2008, 01:08:12 PM »

Is anyone actually listening to what I'm saying here?

NO.

Logic almost never applies to the real world. Start living outside of your head.

What happened to ignoring me?

If you're going to take the ballsy approach that anyone who disagrees with you is so obviously wrong you don't need to address the point in any way, and you're not even going to see what they have to say, you might as well follow it through.

"Logic almost never applies to the real world. Start living outside of your head."

If this is your justification, you have no justification. Blood lust and emotion are never a replacement for logic and thought.

Most of the justifications here are no better than what I hear from people wanting to kill gays, blacks, or any other group that inherits hate from old worlds and old cultures. Just because the person you seek to harm is immoral, doesn't automatically make what you do moral. If you think you're being moral just by virtue of your will and certainty then you make me sick.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 01:09:58 PM by fatcat »
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mikehz

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2008, 01:27:23 PM »

What in the hell did the millions of Jews and others do to deserve going to concentration camps for? 

Being smarter than the goyim with money.

People find it easy to use some group as a scape goat for their problems. In Germany (and much of Europe) it was the Jews. In America, we have a wide variety of groups from which to choose. "It's the blacks." "No, it's the Mexicans." "Hey, everyone knows it's the gays."

That's what I like about America. Diversity.
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"Force always attracts men of low morality." Albert Einstein

thomasjack

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2008, 04:41:52 PM »

Interesting article against proportional punishment: http://www.geocities.com/libertarian_press/noncoercive.html

tl,dr:
1. Proportionality is based on utility measurements and is thus invalid (e.g. fatcat's "i'd rather get raped than break an arm").
2. Proportional punishment violates the absolute rights of criminals.
3. Non-coercive punishment works anyway, so there's no reason for proportional punishment.

I'm not saying I agree with the dude's argument, but it's interesting, anyway.
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Taors

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2008, 04:44:19 PM »

Is anyone actually listening to what I'm saying here?

NO.

Logic almost never applies to the real world. Start living outside of your head.

If you think you're being moral just by virtue of your will and certainty then you make me sick.

I don't live or act to please you. I have my own set of morals and values, and obviously they differ from yours.
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DogOn

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2008, 07:00:27 PM »

*Long fucking post warning*

Quote
If you think you're being moral just by virtue of your will and certainty then you make me sick.

I don't live or act to please you. I have my own set of morals and values, and obviously they differ from yours.

Hey thats cool, theres place for all sorts of mindsets, and I'm of one who wants objectively verifiable logic and fact to back my belief, especially if it pertains to ending lives. If you don't want to have an exchange on the merits and reasons for morals thats okay to, just seems odd to come on a discussion forum to not discuss.

If all I had for a belief was I think its right for some unnamed reason and I have a strong emotional response to do it, I wouldn't bother reiterating that point multiple times in the same thread.

Either way I have no grudge or dislike of those who hold the opinion its okay to kill as revenge, thats just your misguided belief, and the base reality is that most people will never take part in revenge murder, if not only for the fact most people don't get murdered, yet I'd still prefer if you could provide deeper backing for your belief, and even more so that you would care about doing so.

To vosti, I wasn't saying that a crime should be have anything to do with a persons opinion of the crime. Obviously if you steal a penny from me and I want you to die for it, it doesn't matter what i think.

During restitution neither party should have control over the nature of the restitution. A victim cannot demand more than is owed, and the criminal cannot refuse less than he owes. What is owed is defined by the objective nature of the crime. If a man steals $50 then the victim has a right to get back the $50 plus what it cost him to get it back and what it cost him during the time between theft and restitution. How much the rest will be will be determined largely by how effective the arbitration is at defining the harder to define costs. In the case of murder, a huge amount of value has been destroyed, I believe in most cases criminals would agree with their victims to trade amounts of financial restitution for amounts of time spent in jail, or even physical violence. In any case as long as the criminal is being non violent and is willing to restitute for his crimes then he still retains the right to life.

 All the arguments for why killing people is bad still maintain when the person has killed, apart from, that they have violated a persons right, but I don't see any logical system for one violation of rights leading to no rights for the criminal. You are only liable for the rights you have violated, and to the extent of repairing the damage you caused.

You don't get to take a power drill to someones ribcage just because they broke your nose, you don't get to take someones house just because they stole a dollar from you.

In the same way, you don't get to kill someone just because they killed someone you liked. You killing them not only does nothing to repair what you have lost, but it actively ends any possible manner of restitution in future, and at the same time you are violating one of their basic rights for no benefit to healing your own rights violation.

You don't have a right to feel satisfied at the death of someone. You don't have the right to feel or think anything. If that where true I could make people fuck me just to . If you're allowed to kill to make yourself feel better, why can't you beat someone to make yourself feel better from a robbery?

The logic that killers should lose their right to life because they violated another person, has a very logical aesthetic, but it would only be logical if by killing someone you could bring back another, and killing was the only way to do it.

We accept killing as just in self defense because the victims rights are under direct violation and the only way to defend their rights is to use aggression against the aggressor. If you initiate violence then you have no right to not have violence used against you. This does not mean it suddenly becomes moral to kill anyone who has ever been violent , you have the right to do whatever you want so long as you harm no one else, if someone harms you then you have the right to do whatever you need to do to be restituted for the harm done to you. As soon as you do MORE than what is necessary to restitute you, then it becomes harm again. Much like if someone steals my candy bar, and I steal their house, I have passed the point of restitution long ago, and now it is the original criminal who is the victim. The same goes for murder.

Morality is not up for opinion, it does not respond or relate to your emotions. Killing any man when you didn't have to is always immoral. Theres no zero sum, no points to lose or gain, every action you make is either moral, amoral or moral. Killing a bad man is still killing a man. They may have a much lower sense of compassion, they may be mindless and violent, but they are still a sentient being and them being bad doesn't make you killing them good. Don't fool yourself that killing a "bad person" is doing good. You do good by helping, by trading, by producing, by defending yourself and others. Killing and being violent when it doesn't save lives isn't good, its not just or noble. Don't pull out the "well killing a bad person will stop deaths in the future" bullshit, keep that thought crime shit in the drug war and fiction.

The only real argument I've seen for revenge killing is that its okay to kill a bad person. If you don't accept relativism in your right to use drugs and guns or invading a nation, why accept it in your right to be unharmed and the right to restitution?

This is a huge issue, and I'm trying my best not to overwrite without getting feedback, but if no one on the side of revenge cares any more about defending their beliefs than to just repeat a few basic platitudes with a whole heap of machismo and emotion, its just gonna look like mindless violence, which is swell and all, but you're not benefiting nothing but your pride when you tell people how you don't care what they think and you don't need to discuss it to be right.
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BonerJoe

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Re: An eye for an eye?
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2008, 07:02:07 PM »

You cannot win by using more sentances.
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