The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => Serious Business => Topic started by: John Shaw on October 21, 2011, 01:52:51 PM
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Everything you need to know is in the title.
Talk about it. Share your pain. Spock's brother want's to know.
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I used to be an evangelical Christian involved with a national collegiate organization.
I am now an atheist.
I am not much for story telling.
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Was saved at the age of 9 at a tent revival in KY. It was the result of a week long series of sermons given by Rev. James Jude, 6ft. + ,spitting and sweating and crying and yelling about eternal pain and suffering for the unsaved. One night they had a record player and exposed the truth about backwards masking too. He used one red handkerchief to wipe both the sweat and spit away.
I was baptized a few weeks later.
A few years after that, about 14 or so, I was openly atheist. That's not a good thing in rural KY, especially with your immediate family - caused quite a rift, and at 16 I was booted outta the house. I moved back in at age18 for a little while, but for the most part wasn't allowed past the garage.
I'm raising my kids as atheists but I wish I could take them to a tent revival. Closest we've gotten is a mountaintop service in WV. Religion is bullshit but it has a deep cultural significance that can't be filled by anything else. I miss the familiar, shared roots and the closeness with family and strangers alike - but feel that it's worth the trade to be rational and honest. And my kids will be far better off living outside that bizarre fantasy, not having to deal with any guilt complexes, etc.
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Raised Roman Catholic until I was 13
Nuff said. :P
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Raised as a fundie, went off to college as your typical, lukewarm believer going through the motions. At college hit a weird stage in my life. Too far away from my old friends and didn't fit into any new crowd really. Went to parties and drank, pretended to care but was a bit lost. Rediscovered the whole church thing and got hooked pretty deep. Moved into christian housing, was super involved, blah blah. Started really studying the bible and digging in and that would be the mistake. One thing led to another, seeing how the money I was struggling to make was wasted and questions weren't answered led to more questions led to more digging. Dig through enough and you realize it's a total crock of shit. I think for a lot of people our own morality develops and when our god doesn't agree with our morality, we question both. My morality didn't change. My god was found lacking. He died. It was a very sad time, realizing there wasn't an invisible, caring being out there that loved me and wanted me to live with him forever, if only I'd just through all his weird and mysterious and everchanging hoops. He made no sense, he wasn't all powerful, he wasn't all-loving or all-knowing or any of that. My imaginary friend wasn't any of these things. He was just... imaginary.
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Some of us wouldn't be viewed as "religious" by many outside viewers, but do consider ourselves religious and have studied the texts as well as come to our own conclusions and practice in our own ways.
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I was raised Catholic, and my mom was very involved in the church. I think she had had a lot of questions earlier in life, and had gotten some smoothed-over answers from a somewhat "cool" priest. She believed that God was all-loving, and that all of the Bible stories where it seemed that God had told people to do immoral things (like telling Abraham to sacrifice his son), it was simply that Abraham assumed that that was what God would want, because that is what people used to think Gods wanted from them? Or some crap like that. Whenever I had questions, I usually went to her, and she would tell me what she was told when she had asked those questions. When I was 10 or 11 (?), I wanted to be a priest. I am female. Naturally, that wasn't going to happen. I asked my mom who made that rule. She said the pope. I asked when we get a new pope. She said when this pope dies. I asked if I could be a priest if I killed the pope. She said probably not. (lol?) That was the first serious damper on my relationship with the Catholic church. I chose to be confirmed as a member of the church (big ceremony, preceded by lots of classes, similar to a bar/bat mitzvah but not quite as intense or expensive of a party) when I was in high school. Ever since First Communion (at age 7), I was required to go to church every Sunday by my mom. When I moved into a dorm at 18, I stopped going. Some might say it was laziness. (There were a lot of college classes I was skipping as well.) But I really think it was because I no longer had any interest. I visited a number of different religious institutions (a different Catholic church, a non-denominational Christian church, a synagogue, a Mormon church) over the next year or two. Some might say it was shopping for a religion or church, but really, I was just kind of doing research into what other people believe. I already knew I didn't believe in a God of any sort. I found beauty in some church music (I had enjoyed performing it in church choir, high school choir, and community choir), and was a little bummed to feel I had lost some of the meaning behind it. But I can still appreciate it the way I appreciate musicals - the music has meaning in a fictional context, as part of an emotional story. At age 21, a Christian boy I was quite seriously dating broke up with me because his minister told him he was spending too much time with me and not enough time with God. He later further justified the breakup by bringing up a discussion we had had about raising children together. He would want to tell them that they would go to hell if they didn't believe in Jesus. While I might tolerate the teaching of some religious stories (in the context that they may or may not be true), I would never allow anyone to tell my hypothetical future children that. Next I dated an atheist for a couple years, then a Catholic, and then a Jew. I am now in a serious relationship with a Christian, and it's not a big deal right now? When we first started dating, I went to his church with him to see what they said there, and to have an opportunity to discuss it with him afterwards, and get his thoughts and feelings about it. I felt satisfied with our discussion. We have very rarely spoken of it since, in almost a year. (It has not been a major issue in our relationship.) The only concern I have now is if we were to want children in the future.
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Raised Baptist (independent, evangelical, fundamentalist type, but not quite as fundy as some). Went to Baptist high school and some college. Taught Sunday School, sang in the choir, all that shit.
I was a believer, but looking back, I think I never fully (like, 100%) believed, because I had real issues with the way women were treated. Being raised in a fundamentalist church meant that you had to accept all of scripture, without exception. If you rejected one part, then you were rejecting it all. Also, at some point, I stopped praying or offering to pray.
15-16 years ago, I quit going to church (long story, good reasons) and finally got everyone to stop inviting me to church. I went out of my way to have as religious-free a wedding as possible, something that - for a real xtian - should have been as god-filled as possible (we didn't even have a prayer - a poem that sounded like a prayer was read and no one noticed). A couple of years later, I realized that at the very least I was agnostic. Finally, I admitted that that was a cop-out for me, and acknowledged that I was an atheist. Never looked back. I will say that I'm not "out" 100%, but close.
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how bout speaking in tongues?
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how bout speaking in tongues?
Don't know if that's directed at me. For my denomination, no way. Raising your hands while singing was suspect until fairly recently.
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raising hand while singing was normal in a holy roller church (church of god), but, no it wasn't directed at you.
I've had the experience and wondered about others that aren't still in the church mentality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
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how bout speaking in tongues?
Paul made it pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 14 that if there isn't anyone able to interpret you should shut the fuck up. Every time I've seen it, it's been all about the pageantry and while it always gave me something to chuckle about, didn't seem to do shit for the people that fell for the racket.
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I agree - like praying in your closet - not for men to hear. I meant privately.
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I agree - like praying in your closet - not for men to hear. I meant privately.
I saw plenty of it in KY and always thought it was just for show. Not sure what to think of the happening in private.
In the churches where speaking in tongues was common the congregation all payed aloud at the same time - wailing, crying, yelling. There was a snake handling church not far from where I lived that only met monthly but I never went to that one.
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I never saw the snake handling congregation either but I saw plenty of the others you describe - the wailing and crying.
Up close and personal and shit loads in the form of TV preachers.
My dad was a preacher (part time preacher, full time offset printer). But his life was the church.
In my opinion, most churches like this are borderline cults with the pastor and his family elevated to the position of gods. And they're dysfunctional as hell - probably more so than non icons.
One in particular I know of is a son of a "worshipped by his flock" preacher that turned into the biggest crank addict, wife beater, evil motherfucker you'd ever want (not want) to meet.
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Hi,
Seems sorta' like shooting 'fish in a barrel'.
Inviting 'the choir' to your seminar.
Why not propose the same questions to those that are not of 'like mind' and have drunk the kool-aide?
Perhaps trust those whom have only and always had your best interests in mind. Consider, perhaps, that you've been wrong.
Anyway. A modest proposal.
--john galt
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Hi,
Seems sorta' like shooting 'fish in a barrel'.
Inviting 'the choir' to your seminar.
Why not propose the same questions to those that are not of 'like mind' and have drunk the kool-aide?
Perhaps trust those whom have only and always had your best interests in mind. Consider, perhaps, that you've been wrong.
Anyway. A modest proposal.
--john galt
Yeah why don't you start a thread doing exactly that? Seems like a good opportunity for adding something to the board rather than subtracting something from this particular thread, you know?
Post a new thread. Let the market decide.
"...those whom have only and always had your best interests in mind."
By that you mean specifically the implication that non-believers will be tortured for eternity for not joining, yes? Don't answer that, I already know.
Again, this thread is going to be for the subject stated in the title and will not devolve into a religious debate thread. Also, the Serious Business part of the board has a zero tolerance policy for any sort of abuse or nastiness between users. Passive aggressive potshots count.
Make a thread reflecting your suggested topic, and don't use it as a platform to attack or criticize the decisions of other people on the Serious Business board. Otherwise take it to the Rubber Room, please.
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At age 21, a Christian boy I was quite seriously dating broke up with me because his minister told him he was spending too much time with me and not enough time with God.
WOW! Read between the lines of that one! When you're temporarily Earth-bound, who do you go to to "be with" God? :?
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Hi,
Seems sorta' like shooting 'fish in a barrel'.
Inviting 'the choir' to your seminar.
Why not propose the same questions to those that are not of 'like mind' and have drunk the kool-aide?
Perhaps trust those whom have only and always had your best interests in mind. Consider, perhaps, that you've been wrong.
Anyway. A modest proposal.
--john galt
Exactly what the FUCK, are you trying to say? Can't you make more sense to the normal blue collar working man?
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I'd say I'm spiritual, but not religious anymore. The trappings of ritual are tiring.
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I was a good Lutheran in high school right up until I decided to read the Bible. Less than half way through, I realized the thing is bullshit.
I think the Bible should perhaps be required reading in high school. It would break the back of fundamentalism.
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Couldn't buy the magic tree or talking snakes, eh?
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I mean, I can't believe we're even having a serious discussion on this crap.
Mainly for people, as you said, were brainwashed as children.
This is a place they can talk about what led them away from said brainwashing.
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Couldn't buy the magic tree or talking snakes, eh?
No thinking person can believe that crap. People only believe it because they want to fit in or they were brainwashed into it as a child. I mean, I can't believe we're even having a serious discussion on this crap.
And you're an idiot.
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I mean, I can't believe we're even having a serious discussion on this crap.
Mainly for people, as you said, were brainwashed as children.
This is a place they can talk about what led them away from said brainwashing.
The whole point of most (or all?) religions is to indoctrinate or brainwash children as young as possible, and keep it going, so money can be milked out of them for as long as possible. If you're taught from birth that there is an omnipotent, omnipresent being somewhere "up there," watching and judging your every move, and you're young enough to believe it, then walking away or even questioning it is the hardest thing a person can do. I count "deconverteds" (from religion altogether) to be among the bravest people I know (myself included) - some religions more than others because of the threat of physical violence. Technically, the bible dictates that my friends and family not only shun me because I don't believe, but it also says they should kill me. Luckily, they aren't as fundamental as they think they are. They might shun me (not everyone knows - those that do are fine with it), but they won't kill me.
I can only speak from the perspective of an Evangelical/Fundy Baptist background. They start you out very young, as early as 18 months or so, with bible story books, full of the most popular stories that have been sanitized - as best as they can - you don't really see or hear the real bible for some time. Other books full of morality tales are popular; my dentist's office had a stack of them (they're given out for free a lot of the time). I still remember one story about a mother who left her sleeping baby in the house to run to the store for milk (although the illustrations made her look like a painted whore) and while she was gone, the cat or something knocked over the lamp (these were old stories) and the house burned down with the baby inside. (I would have been 4-6 years old when I read that.)
Simultaneously, all authority (parents, pastors, Sunday school teachers, pretty much every adult in the place) is set on breaking your will. Obedience is the goal; independent thought is frowned upon. I've seen it in action even recently: kids being taught to say "yes, mommy" and obey without question. I even knew a family that spanked their infant because she cried when she wasn't hungry, sick or wet/poopy (this was probably in the late 70s, early 80s - there is a shitton more of those freaks following the Pearls). Little wonder that there is so much sexual abuse in churches. They fucking raise the kids to lay down/bend over and take it.
By the time you're reading the real bible, you are mostly ready to believe whatever other people say it says and most believers don't read the nuances. Hell, I can honestly say that I read the whole thing cover-to-cover, but I have to have been only half paying attention because the story of Japeth's daughter never clicked. Or Job - offering his daughters to the angry mob to save the angelic visitors - being such a virtuous man.
The teaching is full of contradiction - god cast Adam and Eve out of Eden because they listened to a talking snake and became self-aware, destroying all human life on earth (except for one family), Job, Japeth's daughter - such an evil bastard, really, then suddenly, you turn the page and it's the new testament and the same vengeful guy is loving and caring and wonderful. Jesus was the ultimate PR spin. A lot of shit is forgiven/forgotten in the bible because of jesus. He loves the little children, you know.
They never got me entirely, which is why I think I was able to walk away, even if it took a long time. I was indoctrinated, but not 100% because my dad wasn't especially religious. Of course, he let me be trucked to church from the age of 2 or earlier, but was okay with questions and even encouraged me to consider breaking the rules if the rules were stupid (as long as I understood that I might still get in trouble with those in authority if I got caught). The fact that my parents weren't united in my religious upbringing saved me, eventually.
I know people that have this tiny worm of doubt, but they keep burying it. They're all "la la la, I don't want to hear it," (literally, except maybe for the la la la part, I've heard those exact words) because they can't risk doubting their faith. Odd, since if it's true, it should be able to withstand a little investigation. To them, it's far scarier to risk separation from their social group (which church is when you get down to it) and of course eternity in hell (if it exists) than look closely at the evidence. In a lot of ways, I don't blame them. It is fucking scary. What helped me a lot is that my social group (my church) turned its back on me first. So I got some distance and the threat of losing it couldn't be effective. That was an additional chink that led me to serious questions.
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Everyone has to decide for him or herself what's true and what's not.
Its not a simple decision. And, the answers are not all there....
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Couldn't buy the magic tree or talking snakes, eh?
No thinking person can believe that crap. People only believe it because they want to fit in or they were brainwashed into it as a child. I mean, I can't believe we're even having a serious discussion on this crap.
And you're an idiot.
I don't believe us religious people should comment on this thread. We were clearly not invited and I respectively kept my nose out of it. If you would like to discuss general belief from a liberty perspective, I would be happy to discuss it on a fresh thread. I happen to know at least two of the newer posters are not Atheists.
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I think I was way too harsh on religious people with my previous comment so I deleted it.
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I think I was way too harsh on religious people with my previous comment so I deleted it.
No, it's just that you're missing the point. Most people who would consider themselves religious would say that they think the story of Genesis is a parable.
If anyone actually believes word for word many things in the Bible, then your description might be correct.
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No, it's just that you're missing the point. Most people who would consider themselves religious would say that they think the story of Genesis is a parable.
If anyone actually believes word for word many things in the Bible, then your description might be correct
Maybe the bible should come with a disclaimer that says, "This is a parable which one must NOT take seriously"?
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Everyone has to decide for him or herself what's true and what's not.
Its not a simple decision. And, the answers are not all there....
The answer of whether you believe something is true is there. Penn Gillette puts it best:
Do you know whether a god exists? no
Do you believe a God exists? no
Unless someone is an arrogant ass, the first question should always yield a 'no'. The second question is where believers and the non-blind diverge. If my best friend tells me he has an omnipotent invisible friend who judges his every thought and punishes him by hurting the people around him, do I really know whether he's lying? No. Do I believe him? No.
I was a Fundie Baptist for a large portion of my life. I converted to LDS about the time I was twelve and living with my mormon grandmother. When I was 17, I started attending a Fundie Baptist church again after I moved back in with my mother (loose history). When I was 20 and in college, I read Atlas Shrugged. Rand's criticism of spirituality initially turned me off to her message, but it planted the seed. I could no longer read the bible in the same light and soon couldn't even pray without feeling stupid. I read the Case for Christ, but that made it worse and Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation finally tipped the scales. I find it amazing that otherwise intelligent people can possibly believe such obvious mythology and superstition, but it attests to the power of a dogmatic upbringing and the manipulation of guilt. It disgusts me.
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such an evil bastard, really, then suddenly, you turn the page and it's the new testament and the same vengeful guy is loving and caring and wonderful. Jesus was the ultimate PR spin. A lot of shit is forgiven/forgotten in the bible because of jesus. He loves the little children, you know.
Just goes to show that the good cop, bad cop routine is the oldest gimmick in the book.
"Look, my partner's nuts. No telling what he'll do to yah! Just work with me so I can protect you."
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Not to be a ball buster but we can make a "Mock religious people thread" if ya'll want to. Here, I'll even do it. Now there's a hate thread and a love thread.
Try to let this thread be for people who want to talk about their deconversion, please.
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I grew up in (and still live in) Mississippi.
I'm surrounded by bible-thumping Southern Baptists who hate drinking, hate gays, hate logic, love country music and love sending troops to kill brown people.
Its a state where making the joke "Islam is just Christianity taken seriously" gets you nearly thrown out of a Libertarian meeting.
Its enough to make any thinking man turn against religion.