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Free Talk Live => Serious Business => Topic started by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on January 02, 2012, 09:10:42 AM

Title: Taxes
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on January 02, 2012, 09:10:42 AM
Wasn't there a time that there were no taxes in the United States?  So, how did taxes become accepted and mandatory in the United States?  What are the origins and why were they accepted?

At one time, if a person needed help, they went to the church, correct?  Well, what if a person did not believe the way the church did?  What if the church refused to help?  What if the church and it's followers passed judgment on the person needing help?  Where did a person in need turn then?

What if the help received just wasn't enough?

What if someone is unable to find work?  What if illness has caused unemployment? What if a person is unable to afford education?  What if a person would fail some of the required curriculum required to educate themselves (what if a math minded person is awful in English and would fail required English courses)?  What if someone is educated but still can not find work?  What if someone is an outcast, unpopular, and disliked?  What if someone is disabled and can not work (and do not have family or wealth)?  What about the working poor....those that work but their pay is not keeping up with the cost of living?  What about the elderly that can no longer work but are already choosing between heat, food, or medicine, even with assistance and/or social security?

I wonder if taxes were allowed and accepted because the government was willing to help the situations mentioned above when individuals and/or private organizations refused to help or did not offer enough help?  Were taxes made mandatory because human nature is often selfish and many would never give one penny willingly?

Wasn't there a time welfare recipients could also go to college and later became back through taxes to the very system that had helped them?

Do you think we, as a society, should vote on what percentage of taxes go to each need?  For example, should x% go to social services, x% to military/defense, x% to roadways, etc.  Also, should the general public vote on the salary/pay of all government jobs? 

What is your solution?

If all taxes were eliminated, would it effect the crime rate?  What would happen to those in poverty if the help they receive was taken away? 

Have you ever lived in poverty?  If so, did anyone help you with an education, food, rent, etc.?  If so, what would you have done without that help?

I would like to hear this topic discussed by many different minds and opinions, so please share your knowledge and opinions.

Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: sanchopanza on January 02, 2012, 11:11:17 AM
EVERYBODY pays taxes in one way or another; either through sales taxes or excise taxes like those imposed on gasoline as well as the ever-present theft tax on the financial benefit one receives from the exchange of value with an employer (time and labor -- which have value to the individual and the  employer) or the same arrangement through self-employment.  

I can't accept that taxes are a 'necessary evil'. Evil is evil. Even if one doesn't agree that the METHOD of tax collection is criminal (i.e. Under threat of violence and/or imprisonment -- or both) the myriad uses given taxes certainly are. Government (used in the plural sense of the word) take as the see fit, under threat of violence and or physical harm, and spend without regard.  To paraphrase Thomas Sowell, to put these decisions in the hands of faceless and unaccountable bureaucrats, that pay no price for being wrong, is the height of stupidity, inefficiency and borders on criminal.

Why is it the population is incompetent to arrange for distribution of THEIR money in ways that benefit THEM or in ways THEY feel benefit society most?  I say that we don't need expensive governmental bureaucracies to redistribute our money the way THEY see fit. De-fund Governments altogether and allow each individual the freedom to fund, or not fund, projects as he or she see feels appropriate.

Let me add further that government intervention in the economy by means of unemployment compensation and other welfare programs does not stimulate the economy. On the contrary, the economy slows down. Taking from the productive to give to the unproductive causes the unproductive to just hold out their hand  for more. The productive then can't expand their activities to produce more economic benefit because government stole their profits.

The poor have always been around and always will be around. Welfare programs are not the way out of poverty. Welfare perpetuates itself and creates a cycle of dependency that many times becomes generational and creates an entitlement mentality. Welfare a failure and should be stopped.

It's strange how, when forced to do so by circumstances, the needy find work. It may not be the ideal position; they may need 2 or 3 jobs to be where they have to be economically, but they find it.

Personally speaking, I would be much more willing to give to the needy if Government would stop stealing the money I earn by exchanging my time and labor for money by mutual agreement with my employer.

If I earn just enough to take care of my family and my debts, why should I be forced by government, or anyone else, to contribute my much needed finances to someone else (either by force or by being socially ostracized if I don't, as you appear to imply) whether or not I have a say in how it's spent? My earning are MINE. If I don't feel inclined to contribute toward someone else's need, why does that suddenly become a problem? More to the point, why should anyone care if I put my money under a mattress and save it for 'a rainy day' or if I use some of it to fund an animal shelter, or to help a family in need due to unemployment, or to buy a load of groceries for an elderly shut-in. It's no one's business but my own.

Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: jtk3 on July 09, 2013, 08:52:52 PM
"Wasn't there a time that there were no taxes in the United States?" 

No, I don't think there was.
Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: SeanD on July 10, 2013, 01:30:50 AM
There was a time where there was no INCOME tax.  But never NO taxes.  Actually the 1st time the militia was used against citizens was over taxes.  President Washington set the Militia on some moonshiners in what came to be known as the Whiskey Rebellion.  Yup domestic taxation and coercion started THAT early in our history.
Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: sillyperson on December 21, 2013, 02:05:23 PM
There should be a TAX on the NEEDLESS use of CAPS
Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: on December 22, 2013, 02:39:52 PM
I've quit paying taxes 10 years ago.  Haven't met many other serious tax resisters.  You end up with several bad choices, short of surrender or death: prison, or living with bums in a tent in the woods (  I originally contemplated confronting the issue and going to prison, but after all Free Staters got in line and stabbed me in the back, I had to postpone that...
Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: on December 22, 2013, 08:37:14 PM
I've been "sharing" for years...

Ex: "Frugal Tax Resister Diaries (".

Many of my writings have been deleted by Ian Fraudman.   :cry:

Since I was so crucified on FSP forums, I kept to myself, and thus my options were limited.  I can't fight the legal battles alone.  So I lived cheap.  Very cheap.  Currently living in a tent in the woods with the homeless folks in Lakewood, NJ - the largest Obamaville in North Eastern USA! (  (But I've already said that.)

Hey - beats surrender.  Or prison...

Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: on December 25, 2013, 12:28:06 AM
Live super-duper-cheap. (  Have no USD income.

I live in a homeless camp, scare away government bulldozers, manage their online presence (, talk to potential donors, help bring in donations for the camp (population: about 80, down from 122), and live off a tiny fraction of those donations (

Donate a Bitcoin slice to Tent City:



Donate a Bitcoin slice to Alex Libman:



Title: Re: Taxes
Post by: FSmember1111 on April 28, 2014, 11:29:39 AM
You don't have to pay taxes but they put a lien on your property so you can't do anything with it.   They always can SWAT you but that's where you grow a pair like Cliven Bundy.

You just need to be a bit older and risk it.   Or you just don't play the game because you're retiring with enough money for instant noodles and none for taxes.

PS:  Why did Judge Napolitano come on O'Reilly and agreed with him that Cliven Bundy tresspassed on federal land?   Disappointing.