Why the opposition to pacifism?

[John Shaw]

Some ganged up on a 19 year old kid and used kidgloves on a more respected poster with the same beliefs.

No. Some ganged up on a dude looking to have a fight by backhandedly insulting people repeatedly while ignoring good arguments. You obviously haven't read the whole thread.

Some have shown to be easily coerced or threatened and some have shown themselves to be trigger happy.

Name names. If you are implying that I'm trigger happy, you're frigging nuts. As I said in one of my last posts, I a person should NEVER fire a gun at someone unless they have some certainty that they will DIE. Never otherwise. Self defense is to save your own life, not to take other lives. Ever.

This Troll witchhunt is eerily similar to the FED witchhunt we have going.

You aren't reading all of Pizzly's threads, obviously. This isn't a witch hunt. The dude is acting like an ass, context dropping when he replies, cherry picking quotes, and responding to people in a condescending manner.

The most important example:

Him: Defending yourself violates the NAP.

Me: Um, not it doesn't and here's why: Blah.

Him: Defending yourself violates property rights, didn't you listen? You're unprincipled because you don't believe in property rights.

Me: You were citing the NAP and "Rights" are debatable.

Him: DEFENDING YOURSELF VIOLATES THE NAP YOU UNPRINCIPLED PERSON.

Sad really, but better to know about people early I guess.

Read more first.

I am not busting on anyone, I am just disappointed in myself, I misjudged a lot of people.

That's some passive aggressive shit right there.

Thought I would mention it.

Please take the time to reread the thread and reassess, alaric. Also, notice that I didn't haul off and holler at you about this. There's a reason why I hollered at Pizzly and didn't holler at you. Try and figure it out and I think you'll understand me a lot better. I'm not playing games here, so if you can't figure it out, ask me and I'll volunteer it.

[John Shaw]

Also, quoting myself from four posts back:

Fire when you think you're gonna die or get raped.

I know it's buried in a large post, but if you're gonna draw conclusions, you really need to have the facts.

[Rillion]

Also, quoting myself from four posts back:

Fire when you think you're gonna die or get raped.

I know it's buried in a large post, but if you're gonna draw conclusions, you really need to have the facts.

....Which was very much appreciated, by the way.  I don't carry outside of the house because I don't have a conceal carry license and don't feel that I need one at this point, but the points about what to do inside the house are duly noted.  Also made me contemplate putting a phone in the bedroom. 

I still have a dilemma about whether to inform someone that they're being held at gunpoint if they break in, or just shoot.  In an obscure Nebraska newspaper from maybe twenty years ago, there's an article about my grandfather holding a thief at gunpoint.  He discovered that someone had been siphoning gas out of his tractor in the barn on a nightly basis, and hid out one night to catch the guy.  When the guy showed up, he trained the gun on him, told him not to move, called the police, and waited until they came.  I don't know if he threw up afterward or not, but I wouldn't blame him if he did. 

[alaric89]

I honestly thought I didn't have to define myself as a non- pacifist. I feel no motivation to address the OP I barely follow the NAP as I have alluded to before. What I want Prizzly to understand is I follow the NAP because it is a good idea.
Pacifism is society suicide, the Amish have the U.S. protecting them without that they would be toast.
I don't think you're triggerhappy Mr. Shaw. I live in a place where there are less guns, I use trigger happy as a metaphor for "Act's before he/she thinks". I meant myself and BJ in this instance when he jumped on mrapplecastle for trolling and I jumped on a grenade for the "trolls" and got spanked. O.K.?
I was one of the people who ganged up on Prizzly, in the start. I tried to keep it light and funny, but I busted his balls like everyone else. Then BJ started his "Jack Palance in Shane" act with mrapplecastle and my natural hatred for authority made me fuck up my own account.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfL4S5nI3Kw
But I believe It should have been handled differently.
Dale is a skilled debater. He has strong princepals, he can take care of himself, yet people gave him more slack than Prizzly, most likely a 19 year old dumbass. I left the the websight before Dale made his pacifist sympathy's clear on this thread, so I can claim innocence on any hypocrisy. However I encourage a Innocent til proved guilty policy on trolls not a "He sounds like a troll - get him!". If Prizzly is what he says he is, his first messaging experience with older and wiser libertarians, was not a very pleasant one. I believe this is regrettable. I deal with kids, both mine and others, and they don't have a tendency to listen better when treated unfairly or disrespectfully. At 19 I myself was a major uncompromising, mean, bullying prick. It wouldn't have helped if a bunch of old guys ganged up on me.
But I'm not going to puss out either Mr. Shaw. If We collectively are going to start ganging up on every conceivable "troll" or FED, I have no place on this message board any more. I don't participate in what I conceive as witchhunts. Maybe You and BJ are right, and I am wrong here. Please just leave my account alone. I'll check back in in a month or two and see.
I apologise for any passive aggression that I may have inadvertently enacted.

[BonerJoe]

"However I encourage a Innocent til proved guilty policy"

Umm, isn't that what we have here in practice? Nevermind, why do I bother, sigh...

[Cognitive Dissident]

I honestly thought I didn't have to define myself as a non- pacifist. I feel no motivation to address the OP I barely follow the NAP as I have alluded to before. What I want Prizzly to understand is I follow the NAP because it is a good idea.
Pacifism is society suicide, the Amish have the U.S. protecting them without that they would be toast.
I don't think you're triggerhappy Mr. Shaw. I live in a place where there are less guns, I use trigger happy as a metaphor for "Act's before he/she thinks". I meant myself and BJ in this instance when he jumped on mrapplecastle for trolling and I jumped on a grenade for the "trolls" and got spanked. O.K.?
I was one of the people who ganged up on Prizzly, in the start. I tried to keep it light and funny, but I busted his balls like everyone else. Then BJ started his "Jack Palance in Shane" act with mrapplecastle and my natural hatred for authority made me fuck up my own account.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfL4S5nI3Kw
But I believe It should have been handled differently.
Dale is a skilled debater. He has strong princepals, he can take care of himself, yet people gave him more slack than Prizzly, most likely a 19 year old dumbass. I left the the websight before Dale made his pacifist sympathy's clear on this thread, so I can claim innocence on any hypocrisy. However I encourage a Innocent til proved guilty policy on trolls not a "He sounds like a troll - get him!". If Prizzly is what he says he is, his first messaging experience with older and wiser libertarians, was not a very pleasant one. I believe this is regrettable. I deal with kids, both mine and others, and they don't have a tendency to listen better when treated unfairly or disrespectfully. At 19 I myself was a major uncompromising, mean, bullying prick. It wouldn't have helped if a bunch of old guys ganged up on me.
But I'm not going to puss out either Mr. Shaw. If We collectively are going to start ganging up on every conceivable "troll" or FED, I have no place on this message board any more. I don't participate in what I conceive as witchhunts. Maybe You and BJ are right, and I am wrong here. Please just leave my account alone. I'll check back in in a month or two and see.
I apologise for any passive aggression that I may have inadvertently enacted.

You protest too much.  Dude trolled heavily.

[John Shaw]

But I'm not going to puss out either Mr. Shaw. If We collectively are going to start ganging up on every conceivable "troll" or FED, I have no place on this message board any more.

:-/

No one ganged up. One mod moved one post, and one other mod expressed deep frustration at the poster's behavior.

Then the poster made a thread asking mods to define what a troll is, which is probably the most obvious and obnoxious way to troll and a total dead giveaway.

I don't participate in what I conceive as witchhunts.

Then give the mods the same benefit of the doubt that you gave the troll, and read the whole thread through, and pay attention to how Pizzpot answered people's questions.

Maybe You and BJ are right, and I am wrong here.

We are, but so what? It's cool.

Please just leave my account alone. I'll check back in in a month or two and see.

See, this is where you go off the rails. The very idea that you'd be attacked for speaking rationally like you just did, versus Pizzpot being attacked for what he did, is totally off kilter, man. You weren't deliberately starting a fight here and he was. You did nothing wrong and he did. Why the hell would anyone "mess" with your account? Please please please reread the thread so you can see where the dude was trolling. The dude was trolling.

Please read this thread - http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=35018.0

And tell me he wasn't trolling.

The problem here is a lack of information on your part, and this can be rectified. Please read the thread and get back to me.

[dalebert]

Please read this thread - http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=35018.0

I don't see it either.  I have to admit being pretty surprised the pacifism thread got moved to a troll section as well.  I can see how someone would start to suspect he might be a troll but so far I was just chalking it up to him being really married to a position and pulling out all the stops to defend that position.  Happens all the time.  People don't let go of their views lightly.  Conceding a point when it's called for can make your argument stronger, IMHO, but he just struck me as young and idealistic and a not very good debater.

[John Shaw]

Dale, read this specific post -

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=35018.msg613732#msg613732

Read what he quoted, then read what his response was.

The protips I wrote were heading him off at the pass in regards to putting me to work, and then he responds by trying to put me to work in just a slightly different way than I admonished against. The dude was being deliberately provocative.

EDIT - I'm quoting the post here -

But why was the thread moved to the troll board?

Troll. It's perfectly obvious that a mod thought his thread was a troll. Asking "Why" it was moved to a forum where troll posts are put serves no purpose, because the answer is in the act. It was put into the troll bin because a mod thought it was a troll post. If he were protesting the move as unjust, he'd argue for why the thread wasn't trolling and get pissed rather than asking the question like he has no idea what just happened.

Shouldn't mine have maybe only been moved to no hijacking so I can delete comments that wish for me to be raped and murdered

Read the thread, you will see no such thing. A lot of people said things to the effect of "Good luck when someone tries to rape/kill you." but NO ONE said they wished for that to happen to him. Not only did what he claims happened NOT happen, then he phrases it to imply that the mods support the nonexistent hate wishing. This is passive aggressive manipulation.

and possibly the posts that claimed untrue positions I never stated?

No examples given and therefore a it's meaningless statement designed to provoke sympathy from people who didn't keep up with the whole thing as closely as others.

[dalebert]

I see all that, but those are things people do just from being kind of lazy about reading posts carefully (which I've even recently been guilty of) or just not being very bright in a discussion.  Plus it kind of seemed like you defined troll right there so that it happened to fit him perfectly.  I fucking hate trolls but I'm unfamiliar with that particular flavor of troll you described.  I think you've made a good case for him being annoying and bad at forum discussions.  It's even possible he is a troll.  It just still seems early to be making that judgment.

Maybe I've become a bit of a softy, mod-wise.  I banned someone on Free Keene for what I thought was a completely legitimate reason and then later felt like it was a huge mistake.  I decided to hand over the ban hammer to the other mods.  Didn't trust myself with it anymore. *shrug*

[Rillion]

Maybe I've become a bit of a softy, mod-wise.  I banned someone on Free Keene for what I thought was a completely legitimate reason and then later felt like it was a huge mistake.  I decided to hand over the ban hammer to the other mods.  Didn't trust myself with it anymore. *shrug*

Yeah, I know.  It's why I have no interest in being a moderator for anything either. 

[John Shaw]

I see all that, but those are things people do just from being kind of lazy about reading posts carefully (which I've even recently been guilty of) or just not being very bright in a discussion.

Fair enough. That's perfectly possible and he can come here and claim that that is what happened at any time, and I'm sure everything would be cool.

Plus it kind of seemed like you defined troll right there so that it happened to fit him perfectly.

Go check out Flame Warriors, The Martialist Troll section, or Wikipedia to see all of those things pointed out exactly by other people. I didn't just come in and redefine the term to suit my ends. Pinky swear. Consider this: What you are saying is that he perfectly fit the definition of one type of troll, so you thought that I custom tailored the term to his specific behavior. (Which I can prove I didn't) What does that mean for him?  

It just still seems early to be making that judgment.

I understand. Just keep in mind my track record of calling "Troll" and how often I'm right in the end. Keep in mind Bonerjoe's past as a troll himself, and his sorta inside knowledge on the subject.

Maybe I've become a bit of a softy, mod-wise.  I banned someone on Free Keene for what I thought was a completely legitimate reason and then later felt like it was a huge mistake.  I decided to hand over the ban hammer to the other mods.  Didn't trust myself with it anymore. *shrug*

I can understand. The only people I've ever banned were LCPLIC, Rob Jacobs, That California drummer dude, and Libman. (Well, and spambots, of course.) The battles that led up to those bannings are still remembered by most of the people who still post regularly. I almost never do it and I don't like it. The only one I took pleasure from banning was Libman, who fucking had it coming for a hell of a long time.

I wouldn't ban Pizzly at this point, personally. I'd certainly call him out for his bullshit and accuse him of bad behavior, which I have done and he has yet to respond to either via a real argument or an apology. The dude isn't even on my possible ban radar. To be honest, no one is right now. S'not something that I'm naturally prone to.

[Turd Ferguson]

I already said that I dont really care if pizzly wants to lie down while someone kills him. Its his business. I was just simply calling it bullshit that he really believes his own bullshit. But yeah, it definitely seemed he was just trying to fuck with Shaw with his "oh, but agression, even in self defense is still theft of property" and the rest of that nonsense.

He was just trying to be a contrarian and piss people off for whatever reason.  

Ok, maybe my Kanning/rape/photoshop thing was a little childish, Ill admit that. But thats all im even a little sorry for. It was just used to illustrate the ridiculousness of such a position.

[John Shaw]

I already said that I dont really care if pizzly wants to lie down while someone kills him. Its his business. I was just simply calling it bullshit that he really believes his own bullshit. But yeah, it definitely seemed he was just trying to fuck with Shaw with his "oh, but agression, even in self defense is still theft of property" and the rest of that nonsense.

He was just trying to be a contrarian and piss people off for whatever reason.  

Ok, maybe my Kanning/rape/photoshop thing was a little childish, Ill admit that. But thats all im even a little sorry for. It was just used to illustrate the ridiculousness of such a position.

No one threatened the dude, I think we can all agree on that.

[Turd Ferguson]

I already said that I dont really care if pizzly wants to lie down while someone kills him. Its his business. I was just simply calling it bullshit that he really believes his own bullshit. But yeah, it definitely seemed he was just trying to fuck with Shaw with his "oh, but agression, even in self defense is still theft of property" and the rest of that nonsense.

He was just trying to be a contrarian and piss people off for whatever reason.  

Ok, maybe my Kanning/rape/photoshop thing was a little childish, Ill admit that. But thats all im even a little sorry for. It was just used to illustrate the ridiculousness of such a position.

No one threatened the dude, I think we can all agree on that.

Oh no doubt, his definition of "threaten" was us posting things like "fine, you win, enjoy your assrape" or "enjoy the boot on your neck" when its obvious to anyone with at least 10 brain cells in their skull what we meant. Blatant trollery at its finest. A shit stirrer and nothing more.