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Author Topic: Why the opposition to pacifism?  (Read 26531 times)

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Pizzly

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Why the opposition to pacifism?
« on: September 10, 2010, 11:44:18 PM »

It seems when ya type "pacifism" into the search engine, all you get is criticism and oppositon. Reading these comments makes me think of the sheer ignorance you get from statists when trying to explain something as simple as private education. I just don't get why there's all the hate, can someone explain?
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Peace isn't loving your neighbor, peace is simply not killing them.

Bill Brasky

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 11:50:16 PM »

And that was when The Dude went nuts.  Walter didn't say a word, he knew when to shut the eff up, pardon my French.  I've kinda taken to cussin, and I'll take another Sasparilla while you're down there.  But yeah, that was the moment when it all went out of kilter. 


Who's voice didj'a read that in?

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Evil Muppet

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2010, 12:39:38 AM »

I think its cultural heritage.  A lot of our cultural values were formed during less civilized times.  Think about a group of people who live on the frontier or on the borderlands between two rival powers.  They would continually face the threat of attack and someone who wasn't willing to fight would be a liability to the group.  They couldn't be counted upon when they were needed.  Other people would view a pacifist as someone who was not carrying their fair share. 

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anarchir

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2010, 01:07:52 AM »

I think it is about the commonly perceived definition: I think many people see pacifism not in the non-aggression principle way (self defense = OK) but in a way that says that you must remain a victim/nonviolent/weak in the face of trouble. I might include myself in one of those people who define "pacifism" that way. I may also be drunk.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 01:26:21 AM »

 

I will end your life if I need to.  And thats all I have to say about that.



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anarchir

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2010, 01:28:32 AM »



I will end your life if I need to.  And thats all I have to say about that.

I'd like to mention that you are doing a shabby job at staying on topic and encouraging discussion tonight, in case you havent noticed.
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Bill Brasky

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2010, 01:40:32 AM »



I will end your life if I need to.  And thats all I have to say about that.

I'd like to mention that you are doing a shabby job at staying on topic and encouraging discussion tonight, in case you havent noticed.

Horseshit.

You know what pacifism is, right?

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Andy

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2010, 02:40:34 AM »

I think it is about the commonly perceived definition: I think many people see pacifism not in the non-aggression principle way (self defense = OK) but in a way that says that you must remain a victim/nonviolent/weak in the face of trouble. I might include myself in one of those people who define "pacifism" that way. I may also be drunk.

That's because that is pacifism. I think people probably object to it because it's so fucking stupid even your average muppet can see it.

dalebert

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2010, 08:09:39 AM »

I think its cultural heritage.  A lot of our cultural values were formed during less civilized times.  Think about a group of people who live on the frontier or on the borderlands between two rival powers.  They would continually face the threat of attack and someone who wasn't willing to fight would be a liability to the group.  They couldn't be counted upon when they were needed.  Other people would view a pacifist as someone who was not carrying their fair share. 

So it's like a social contract or a sense of entitlement-- an expectation that others should have to do something for us?

John Shaw

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2010, 10:22:33 AM »

Pacifism is dying even when you don't have to.

That's contra survival and not good.

Not initiating force <> Not concluding it when used against you. Even in a totally gratuitous and out of proportion way.

In a just society, if some mugger whips a gun out on me in my own store, and have every right to shoot him dead and stick his head on a pole out front until the condition of the head could endanger my customers with disease.

Not saying that I'd do something as barbaric as that, but I'd have every right to.

Pacifism is for masochists.
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Pizzly

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2010, 12:51:56 PM »

Pacifism is dying even when you don't have to.

That's contra survival and not good.

Not initiating force <> Not concluding it when used against you. Even in a totally gratuitous and out of proportion way.

In a just society, if some mugger whips a gun out on me in my own store, and have every right to shoot him dead and stick his head on a pole out front until the condition of the head could endanger my customers with disease.

Not saying that I'd do something as barbaric as that, but I'd have every right to.

Pacifism is for masochists.


I absolutely disagree. It's strange, usually libertarian leaning indivuals see fallacies like "one of us must die." The fact I find it unethical to use force, even in response to a prior force, is not even the slightest admission that I would rather die.
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Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2010, 12:59:20 PM »

Gotta go with Shaw on this one.  

I think it's one of the things objectivism brings to the table (perhaps implicitly) that some libertarians don't get.  Pacifism encourages people to act immorally by failing to properly set boundaries.  In the same way that thoughtless charity (just throwing the money out for the bums) encourages bums, thoughtless avoidance of self-defense encourages the truly evil people to take advantage--and not just of you, of the next guy as well.  

Pacifism is probably the root cause for The State (just as The Maffia.)

Pacifism is evil because it is the enabling of evil.

That doesn't mean being passive is evil.  Making a policy of it is.  Same as altruism.
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Pizzly

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2010, 01:29:31 PM »

Gotta go with Shaw on this one. 

I think it's one of the things objectivism brings to the table (perhaps implicitly) that some libertarians don't get.  Pacifism encourages people to act immorally by failing to properly set boundaries.  In the same way that thoughtless charity (just throwing the money out for the bums) encourages bums, thoughtless avoidance of self-defense encourages the truly evil people to take advantage--and not just of you, of the next guy as well. 

Pacifism is probably the root cause for The State (just as The Maffia.)

Pacifism is evil because it is the enabling of evil.

That doesn't mean being passive is evil.  Making a policy of it is.  Same as altruism.


This argument makes me think of the usual arguments against liberty. People say that nongovernence or limited governence will lead to eventual tyranny or greater harm, but that's only a consequentalist argument. You seem to reject the deontological stance that menas are an end in themselves.
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Peace isn't loving your neighbor, peace is simply not killing them.

mrapplecastle

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2010, 01:44:07 PM »

Look what happened to the bandakar.
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Why the opposition to pacifism?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2010, 02:08:02 PM »

Pacifism is dying even when you don't have to.

That's contra survival and not good.

Not initiating force <> Not concluding it when used against you. Even in a totally gratuitous and out of proportion way.

In a just society, if some mugger whips a gun out on me in my own store, and have every right to shoot him dead and stick his head on a pole out front until the condition of the head could endanger my customers with disease.

Not saying that I'd do something as barbaric as that, but I'd have every right to.

Pacifism is for masochists.


I absolutely disagree. It's strange, usually libertarian leaning indivuals see fallacies like "one of us must die." The fact I find it unethical to use force, even in response to a prior force, is not even the slightest admission that I would rather die.

Ok pizzly, lets role play. I have a chainsaw and I just busted down your door and am coming at you reving it up.....................you have a loaded shotgun 2 ft from your reach leaning against the fireplace.


Your move.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 02:09:38 PM by quickmike »
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