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106

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 30, 2008, 07:36:42 PM »

Sure, the only rub in the argument is claiming that it's sensible to establish beliefs about a creator, or even that there is a creator at all.

... and so we're back to where all our heads clash. 

Group hug, guys? I think I've come 360 with this.

107

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 30, 2008, 04:12:36 PM »

Sure.  I don't accept that God is behavior is equal or worse than any human monarch.  If I did, I sure wouldn't be looking up to Him...

So, you just ignore all of the god-sanctioned baby-killing, raping and pillaging of the OT? From what I've read (and I've studied theology to degree level) bible-god makes any and every human monarch look like a rank amateur when it comes to FORCE, STEAL and PILLAGE.

I'm afraid your logic, for me, doesn't stand up to critique, Gene. Not from a common sense point of view, nor an ideological point of view. At best, you worship god because you make some kind of theological sense out of the ragtag, second-rate horror epic that is the bible. At worst, you actually believe in god and, simply, will accept anything from him/her/it out of misguided loyalty or fear.

Wow!!  Since you're edumacated to the "degree" level and I can't even spell, I don't know why I need to talk to you.  It's quite obvious that you are on a much higher plane than I am.  I really should be just worshiping you instead of God (not). 

Tut-tut, Gene. As you know, I've always started off any criticism of your standpoint with a shout-out of respect to you. Yet, this is such a cheap shot... 

One thing I've learned over my lifetime is that having a degree sure doesn't guarantee that one excels in "common sense".  At any rate, most of you here keep ragging on how the Bible is not accurate and that's all fine and dandy among you until I also state that I do not accept some areas of the Bible, then it's "inconsistent".  Funny how that works...

As I've already stated to your muslim agosrist ally, I have seen little common sense in theology - it's pretty much the mirror opposite of common sense. Common sense appeals to that for which there is copper-bottomed evidence for. Theology deals with that for which there is no evidence for.

Muslim Agorist, thanks for your generous crash course on Islam - I'm geuninely fascinated to see the differences (from your perspective) between islam and judeo/ xian theology.

My statement:

The ultimate problem with theology, for me, is that it offers nothing concrete in terms of proof

Your reply:

The Quran’s answer to this question is that the Quran itself is the proof. I find no other suitable explanation for the appearance of a book the size of the New Testament to appear in perfect rhyming verse from the mouth of an illiterate who memorized the book in its entirety in a desert wasteland in isolation of from the other scriptures… especially considering everything it says… and in the context it was revealed.

Hmmm.... 

I’m not particularly interested in trying to prove that Islam is or isn’t True. For me it’s enough that you separate your opinion of Islam from your opinion of Christianity and judge Islam on it’s own flaws and merits. Beyond that you’re on your own… I can only inform, not convince.

Fair enough - I'm certainly a little wiser on what islam is about. The desert dogmas aren't blending together quite as much as they used to... yet, I'm very far from convinced that any of them are of any real value in the real world. Quite the opposite, really...

Atheism however I think would produce a more ruthless world if it gained wide acceptance. I could be wrong.

... you see, I'm still of the opinion that religion is much more dangerous than the atheism you seem to fear - we've seen wars aplenty based on/ attached to religion. Religious scripture is riddled with violence, sexism, inequality, homophobia, racism etc.

Where's your evidence that atheism is as dangerous?

I’m much more interested in talking about the “sensible answer.” And I think Gene is on to something, and if his perspective gained acceptance among Christians I think the world would be a little better for all of us. 

... and I would applaud Gene for achieving such amongst the xian community and you for achieving such amongst the muslim community. I'd stand alongside you all, in solidarity, as we work in different ways, within different circles, towards creation of a more free world.

I guess why I quiz Gene and your good self on your religious positions is because they seem to be central to your respective 'political' (for want of a better term) positions...

What do you think is the “sensible answer?”

That's the rub - I don't think there is one sensible answer. The title of this thread suggests that there is.

I believe more in working in as many different ways as possible. Working individually, or in small groups, as opposed to having to come together as a huge movement. Me? I'm lucky to be in a job that partly requires me to not only challenge the government within a specific context, but to train others to do such in a more effective way. So, I guess that's what the main thrust of my answer is - for now. That and a little bit of activism.

Wish me well with it all, as I wish you well with your pursuits. 

 

108

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 29, 2008, 10:03:09 AM »

I would feel very ashamed of myself if I was to subscribe to a god who raped and pillaged.

Me too… evidence?

Well, I can't speak for Allah as I've only studied judeo/ xian theology. However, from my limited understanding of Islam is that its branch-off from the older judeo-xian god came with Ishmael - right? Therefore, we're talking about the same deity, albeit diferent perceptions of such depending on one's faith.

The bible is full of injustice, mostly at the hands of god and/or sanctioned by god - I've covered this in previous posts but could give further evidence of such if you require it?

Here, take a look for yourself right here:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

As for the Quran - I've no personal knowledge of it, but some may find this of interest with regards to alleged cruelty and violence within its pages:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

Even if god (or whatever name you wish to give to your chosen sky-deity) did exist (and the evidence against such is heavily weighted) I wouldn't worship him - what's written about him disgusts me.

Heavily weighted? You’re really only responding to Christian books and Christian concepts… so I’m not totally sure what this has to do with God. I don’t accept the Bible as an inerrant document. The Quran is clear that atrocities were added to justify the wishes of men seeking power. Also... I don't believe Allah lives in the sky.

As stated, beforehand, I can't speak about the Quran as I haven't read it. Nor do I intend to - I had my fill of religion from a childhood steeped in the stuff. I'm happily married to atheism  

Also, the burden of proof is not really on me to prove 'xian/ islamic etc. anarchy is NOT the only sensible answer' but for you to prove it is, no? So, I guess in even having the conversation I'm being generous

In fact, the very act of worship is against liberty, and personal responsibility, in my opinion. However, the act of respecting others' rights to worship is VERY MUCH what liberty is about.

I don’t think this makes any sense… worship is a voluntary interaction… how can be antithetical to liberty?

Al Baqara 2:256 “Let there be no compulsion in religion”

Sure, I agree with you there - however, worship seems to me to be against personal reponsibility. Much of xian theology speaks of sin as humankind's failure to ever measure up to god's supposed standard of excellence. A typical reaction, in fundamentalist circles, is to see anything a person does to better themselves as irrelevant in the grand scale of things, therefore, in lieu of christ's redemptive work. To worship christ, therfore, is to deny oneself, it seems from the evangelical perception of theology.

I'm well aware that theological interpretations of biblical material (canonical and non-canonical - for the more pot-smoking version of the gospel, I'd highly recommend the gnostic gospel of thomas) are varied, however, I just can't see any way that the whole idea of worship of god can concur with liberty. Liberty is about individualism. Organised religion (and many smaller sects and cults) are about herd mentality - and often the metaphysical reasoning for practice/ doctrine is seen to puke all over common sense. Ironically, Gene often talks on FTL about the government cult-members when he is a member of one of the biggest and most successful cults the western world has ever seen - xianity.    

If god was any more just than a human monarch, he wouldn't use FORCE to STEAL and PILLAGE, yet he very clearly sanctions those very things A LOT in the old testement.

I don’t accept the Torah as an inerrant document. It is, in part, the work of blood thirsty men seeking power. That’s all… Your concept of God is very human… You seem to want to hold Him morally responsible for things written in old books. My concept of God is that He is the agent of all events. Like the invisible hand of the market place. You don’t blame the Hand when a market correction puts you out of work… and if you do, it’s not morally responsible.

You're speaking like a deist, now - your comment here suggests you believe in a non-interventional god.

Am I understanding you, correctly?

Do you believe the quran is inerrant?

I've studied theology to degree level

Where, and to what degree? No disrespect, but you don’t convey that expertise… unless perhaps you studied in a Christian seminary and not in a secular school.

I studied religion (mostly judeo/ xian) at a teaching college as part of my BEd. I'm arguing mostly from a common sense perspective on this thread, however, because most of what I studied in theology I found to be, ultimately, useless.

The ultimate problem with theology, for me, is that it offers nothing concrete in terms of proof - copper-bottomed proof - in favour of what I would only describe, at best, as quasi-intellectual masturbation.

Where does your 'expertise' come from?

109

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 28, 2008, 04:43:05 PM »

I know I won't be trying to act like a moderator anymore - it's a FREE FOR ALL on the FTL BBS... No respect for ANYONE. Wheeeeeeeee!!!!

Dude, modding is a thankless task. I gave it up for similar reasons over at another forum.

Don't take it all to heart - bear in mind that t'internet is what t'internet does. It's very rare to find reality or sincerity online. I just enjoy it for what it is.

Good luck and sorry you got burned out!

110

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 28, 2008, 02:39:50 PM »

This thread should be titled "Cosmic Monarchy is the only sensible answer." or perhaps it should be a cosmic dictatorship, right Gene? After all, there can only ONE all powerful creator being right? That creator having ultimate power over everything?

I find it interesting that you don't mix your beliefs in anarchy with your beliefs in how the universe should be run.
Vote Jesus in 2008!

Actually you are correct that God is a Monarch.  "Democracy" is quite evil as we of the liberty movement can see.  The "creation" will never be able to unseat the "Creator" as that would be against nature.  I've made it clear from the start that I'm an "anarchist" as far as any human "monarch" or "ruler".  I recognize none.  They are nothing more than MEN who use FORCE to STEAL and PILLAGE.  Eventually they succumb to a someone who overturns them (or their successor) by "FORCE".  The old saying "live by the sword..."

To be an "anarchist" towards your own Creator would be foolish as well as "against nature"...

This is a crucial point for me, Gene.

If god was any more just than a human monarch, he wouldn't use FORCE to STEAL and PILLAGE, yet he very clearly sanctions those very things A LOT in the old testement.

So, it begs the question of why you would place your trust in or worship a being whose behaviour is equal to/ worse than any human monrch thus far?

A clear answer in plain english, please! 

Sure.  I don't accept that God is behavior is equal or worse than any human monarch.  If I did, I sure wouldn't be looking up to Him...

So, you just ignore all of the god-sanctioned baby-killing, raping and pillaging of the OT? From what I've read (and I've studied theology to degree level) bible-god makes any and every human monarch look like a rank amateur when it comes to FORCE, STEAL and PILLAGE.

I'm afraid your logic, for me, doesn't stand up to critique, Gene. Not from a common sense point of view, nor an ideological point of view. At best, you worship god because you make some kind of theological sense out of the ragtag, second-rate horror epic that is the bible. At worst, you actually believe in god and, simply, will accept anything from him/her/it out of misguided loyalty or fear.

111

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 28, 2008, 08:49:25 AM »

This thread should be titled "Cosmic Monarchy is the only sensible answer." or perhaps it should be a cosmic dictatorship, right Gene? After all, there can only ONE all powerful creator being right? That creator having ultimate power over everything?

I find it interesting that you don't mix your beliefs in anarchy with your beliefs in how the universe should be run.
Vote Jesus in 2008!

Actually you are correct that God is a Monarch.  "Democracy" is quite evil as we of the liberty movement can see.  The "creation" will never be able to unseat the "Creator" as that would be against nature.  I've made it clear from the start that I'm an "anarchist" as far as any human "monarch" or "ruler".  I recognize none.  They are nothing more than MEN who use FORCE to STEAL and PILLAGE.  Eventually they succumb to a someone who overturns them (or their successor) by "FORCE".  The old saying "live by the sword..."

To be an "anarchist" towards your own Creator would be foolish as well as "against nature"...

This is a crucial point for me, Gene.

If god was any more just than a human monarch, he wouldn't use FORCE to STEAL and PILLAGE, yet he very clearly sanctions those very things A LOT in the old testement.

So, it begs the question of why you would place your trust in or worship a being whose behaviour is equal to/ worse than any human monrch thus far?

A clear answer in plain english, please! 

112

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 27, 2008, 03:00:56 PM »

I think there's a fundamental disconnect when people people take Gene's thesis and then try to argue whether or not God is liberty minded because of His actions in the Bible. Gene's thesis of Christian Anarchy, as well as mine of Muslim Nonarchy, concerns how men should treat one another, and is largely based upon the idea that government men have no legitimate authority. Arguing that God is not libertarian is as asinine as arguing that gravity is not libertarian. It's a non sequitur. Allah al-Malik... God is Sovereign. The act of creation is by fundamentally an initiation of force. Were God not liberty minded freewill would not exist at all, but like gravity, consequences result from freewill, and freewill is limited by the physical world. Call it God, call it Nature, call it whatever you like, the character of the Creator, the Sovereign, the Sustainer is not relevant this this thesis UNLESS one believes that the Sovereign grants authority to some men to aggress against others. Gene's thesis, and mine, is that He doesn't.

I would feel very ashamed of myself if I was to subscribe to a god who raped and pillaged. Even if god (or whatever name you wish to give to your chosen sky-deity) did exist (and the evidence against such is heavily weighted) I wouldn't worship him - what's written about him disgusts me.

In fact, the very act of worship is against liberty, and personal responsibility, in my opinion.

However, the act of respecting others' rights to worship is VERY MUCH what liberty is about - so, eat your heart out, guys. I would fight for your rights to worship whatver the hell you wished to worship, and I trust you would do the same.

113

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 25, 2008, 06:31:42 PM »

And to further clarify, I will not tolerate language wherein the sole purpose is to ridicule God.  Ridicule me all you want...

I wouldn't dream of ridiculing you, Gene, but, for me, the statement 'Xian anarchy is the only sensible answer' represents the very opposite of common sense - for all the reasons I've mentioned thus far, and more.

Perhaps you may wish to revise that statement?

Your replies to my posts have shown how, while you reject evolution due to your perceived kack of evidence for such, you're quite willing to accept very shaky evidence for the existance of your seemingly very flexible understanding of god. How can 'Xian anarchy' be the 'only sensible answer' if it defies common sense as well as any form of academic scrutiny?

I'm quite comfortable with a statement like 'xian anarchy is my answer' (ie: Gene's answer) but, without a doubt, it is not the 'only sensible answer.'

114

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 25, 2008, 05:05:54 PM »

You can grab a lot of stuff from the bible to show god at his very worst - a dictator who will kill, mame and spread disease over his own and other gods' followers. The above is just a brief overview. I could go on for pages and pages.

Yes, all that and more is in the group of writings that several men in the past decided to group together into one place and name "The Bible".  I'm not sure how true all of it is and certainly doesn't sound like the Creator I know and love.  I know a loving Creator who lets us learn from our environment, but I don't believe he helps to make us more miserable for fun.  So is He suffering from a dual personality?  I don't think so.  I can only believe that those things either never occurred or occurred differently than is recorded. 

Geez, Gene. How can I reply to that?! 

You've made your mind up despite the evidence weighting against you. I guess you get something very personal out of your faith - and more power to you for it. But, you got to see how many, many people aren't going to agree with you that 'xian anarchy is the only sensible answer' 

115

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 24, 2008, 05:22:06 PM »

A review of recent posts finds a concern that freewill cannot exist because God knows the future.  I hardly find this convincing.  Because someone has KNOWLEDGE of what you will do is not the same as MAKING you do it.  You have the freewill to make your decisions.  You were CREATED with freewill AND rights.  Your rights and your freewill follow you wherever you travel  in the universe.  When I'm in China, I have a right to keep and bear arms, for instance.  There are, however, armed CULT MEMBERS who feel (mistakenly) that they have authority to take my weapons or even kill me.  That does not mean that my rights do not exist, it means that a gang of thugs want to VIOLATE those rights.  If I were to carry a pistol in China (they are available on the black market) I would do so concealed.  Indeed, in China, it is less likely that I would be searched then here...

My problem isn't with predestination, Gene - although, I do agree that is an outrageous scorn of liberty - yet, I've more of a problem with god's character (mainly in the OT) and behaviour throughout the scriptures.

The god I read about is a tyrant - a raping, pillaging, genocide-inducing, jealous bastard, with no care for either life or liberty. Here's a glimpse at him at his very worst:

First there's the book of Job. What we have there, in essence, is a wager between god and satan. Biblegod is challenged (because he's bored one day?) to torture a man in order to test his faith. Job loses literally everything - his wife, kids, possessions, livestock, health etc. Just so god can prove a point...

...that's not a fun god.

Need more convincing?

A little flesh-eating for the horror fans:
 
(Lev 26:27-28 NRSV) But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins.

(Lev 26:29 NRSV) You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

(Jer 19:9 NRSV) And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and all shall eat the flesh of their neighbors in the siege, and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.

And here's more baby-killing sponsored by the ever-charitible god:

(Exo 12:29 NRSV) At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the prisoner who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock.

(Ezek 20:26 NRSV) I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am the LORD.

(Hosea 13:16 NRSV) Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.

(Lev 26:22 NRSV) I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you of your children…

Now, is that a nice god? Taken out of context, perhaps? Think about it this way - if all of the above was written in Mein Kampf, would you be trying to find a context that lets Hitler off the hook?

You can grab a lot of stuff from the bible to show god at his very worst - a dictator who will kill, mame and spread disease over his own and other gods' followers. The above is just a brief overview. I could go on for pages and pages.

Anyway, I'll leave you to it, Gene. Mucho respect to you, dude. I don't think any of us are going to budge on our positions

116

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 23, 2008, 06:06:35 PM »

If God knows the future and everything each person will choose to do before he even creates their soul, then man does not have free will and is in no way responsible for his actions.

In a universe with a god who is all knowing, man is just a robot.

Exactly. Also, what kind of choice does god really offer throughout the old testament?

'Live free or die'?

Nope.

'Worship me/ agree with me/ play mindgames with me/ kill who I tell you to kill (including babies), or die'

judeo/ xian jaweh = liberty-free ethics

You are right though, Gene, about various religions evolving from eachother. A quick dukie at Robert Graves' THE GREEK MYTHS (especially the creation myths) and you'll find variations on the same themes found in xianity.

Jesus? Dionysus? Osiris (Egyptian mythology)? All playing the same tunes to different audiences.

117

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 23, 2008, 03:02:15 PM »

Gene, I think you are reading into the 'knowledge of good and evil' what you feel would suit your anarchy standpoint best.

What we're really talking about is 'choice' - ie: choice to do what one wants; choice to do 'good' or 'evil' or whatever one decides is 'good' or 'evil.'

Surely that's the most basic principle of liberty? Surely god's intervention was prohibition?

In my opinion, religion is like the opposite of liberty. It takes personal responsibility away from its adherents and offers mind control (either blatant or subtle) in its place.

118

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 23, 2008, 04:26:57 AM »

This thread needs to DIAF.

Check the history.  I did not revive this thread but now that it's again active, I will address questions posed here (as below)...

Gene - thanks for the reply, however you didn't answer my questionl; why does 'knowledge' threaten god? Why is the pursuit of 'knowledge' seen not only as sinful, but as the very origin of sin?

119

General / Re: Christian Anarchy is the only sensible answer...

« on: October 22, 2008, 08:12:54 AM »

I understand what your saying, but I'm confused, perhaps you could clear this up for me.

I'm under the impression that according to Christian doctrine that we are all sub-human next to Jesus, and for punishing him we deserve what we're getting. I find it to be a doctrine based on masochism, self-loathing, and voluntary suffering - so I ask, how can a doctrine like this help bring us back our freedom?

The Christian "doctrine" is that we are living in a cursed world because of what Adam and Eve did
not because of Jesus' death.

Gene - first, let me say that I totally love to hear your calls on FTL. You're both witty and educated in the points you make to Ian and Mark, and it always adds to the show when you ring in. Keep calling in!

However, while we both agree on anarchy, I would hasten to quiz you on how the xian doctrine is compatible with individualism and anarchy

You have mentioned 'Adam and Eve' - my understanding of the xian concept of 'original sin' is that Adam/ Eve were punished due to accepting the Seprent's offer of 'knowledge.'

How can you justify punishment of a person (of a whole world?!) who, simply, want to know more? Is god's action of denying 'knowledge' (self-awareness) not going to reduce the personal responsibility a person has, in favour of his totalitarian regime? Surely, to the individualist - as well as to the anarchist - 'knowledge' is not only power, but also vital?

120

General / Re: Libertarian music, movies etc.

« on: October 18, 2008, 07:45:45 AM »

Interestingly enough, libertarians have oft claimed Orwell as their own, as well. However, I was introduced to ANIMAL FARM as a communist work when we read it in school.

I think it is laughable that a communist would enjoy Animal Farm as a positive reflection of communism. I suppose they would just think it was a bd implementation of a good idea. 

To be honest, I can't remember enough about ANIMAL FARM to make a call on what politics are on patrol - however, 1984 could hardly be a shrine to communism, that's for sure.