| (http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/AnarchoCapitalistFlag1.png) Subtle Watermark Version | (http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/AnarchoCapitalistFlag2.png) Top-Left Corner Detail |
Anarchists are just statists who reject the state, but accept the underlying premise of statism that governance is possible only through aggression.
There is a typical bisected flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_symbolism#Bisected_flags_and_stars) design that's used in anarchist symbolism: the bottom-right triangle is always black, and in the case of Anarcho-Capitalism the top-left portion is usually gold or yellow. A decentralized movement can never have any official symbols, but that color combination does seem to be pretty popular. The flag design looks a bit incomplete though, but that's probably how it should be - it's just a template for individual people to customize, and there's a lot of room to add something.
I tried to come up with something simple that can be put in the top-left (yellow) corner to symbolize my views, which come close to Objectivism but not entirely. What I ended up with can be seen in my current avatar.
[The gears symbolize mankind's capacity to create useful things. The fact that they interlock but if you look closely don't really touch symbolizes individualism, and how individuals can deal with each-other on voluntary basis through capitalism, exchanging value for value. The horizontal positioning of the gears, in contrast to the bisecting slash below, creates a subtle illusion of a smirking face in gear-rimmed glasses, or a pair of hairy testicles (i.e. "balls of steel"), but that would be analyzing things too far. The left gear contains a little symbol of a bolt of lighting, symbolizing the feminine - inspiration, beauty that needs to be tamed, and fertility. The right gear contains a light-bulb (similar to the cover of Ayn Rand's "Anthem"), symbolizing the masculine - ideas, enlightenment, results, utility. They combine to turn raw power that exists in its potential form into things that make life better.]
So the theme of this thread is: what would YOU add to YOUR personal version of that flag, working within the established color scheme and template?
Anarchists are just statists who reject the state, but accept the underlying premise of statism that governance is possible only through aggression.
Wow, you thought this shit out a lot, man!
Everybody knows that gold is gettin' old.
Yellow is the worst color eva.
Make it platinum, or white gold.
Everybody knows that gold is gettin' old.
Yellow is the worst color eva.
Make it platinum, or white gold.
I agree, yellow is my least favorite color.
Hillary clinton has been wearing a lot of banana yellow.
The state can be replaced by voluntary governments once enough people are ready for liberty and its requirement for discipline and responsibility.
I would add fire to the flag.
Every flag can use a little fire.
(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3484/nortonihairflagns0.jpg)
By sandm000 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/sandm000) at 2007-08-27
What you need is a shark with a rocket up it's ass.
Actually this is my flag for liberty, the facial hair of emperor norton flag.
And you can be a non-coercive socialist and against the state and therefore and anarcho-socialist.The state can be replaced by voluntary governments once enough people are ready for liberty and its requirement for discipline and responsibility.
markuzick is an anarcho-syndicalist, believing that a forced state is wrong, but people will voluntarily erect there own governing structures.
Anarchists are just statists who reject the state, but accept the underlying premise of statism that governance is possible only through aggression.
What a load of bullshit. :lol:
I'm an anarcho-capitalist and I don't accept the underlying premise of statism.
If you're an anarcho-anything, then you must believe that governance is possible only through aggression.
That makes you a statist who hates the state, in the same way that a satanist accepts the premise of theism, that there is a God. That makes him a theist who hates God.
We both reject the state, but we are not coming from the same premise to reach our position. In the same way the atheist and the satanist both reject God, but are each coming from a different premise to reach their positions.
Just as atheists stand a much better chance of getting people to reject God than satanists do, so the advocates of voluntary government stand a much better chance of getting people to reject the state than anarchists do.
Anarchists are just statists who reject the state, but accept the underlying premise of statism that governance is possible only through aggression.
You're thinking of the black-and-red, black-and-green, black-and-pink, and other idiots who self-contradictingly call themselves socialist anarchists. The black-and-gold Anarcho-Capitalists are nothing like them: we respect private property and all other aspects of self-ownership, and the natural order that it brings. There's really no difference between the term "Anarcho-Capitalist" and "libertarian" (small-l), except the former is bolder and hasn't been soiled by single-issue LINO (Libertarian In Name Only) demagogues. When Dennis Kucinich calls himself a Libertarian Democrat, you know you need a new term! The word "Capitalism" would scare him away, and the word "Anarchy" would scare off right-wingers like Glenn Beck who're just trying to blend in with the cool kids. And can you think of better colors to express each of those two terms than gold and black?
Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society.
If you're an anarcho-anything, then you must believe that governance is possible only through aggression.
No, it means you believe rule, (i.e. coercive government) is possible only through aggression, which is entirely accurate.
If you're an anarcho-anything, then you must believe that governance is possible only through aggression.
That makes you a statist who hates the state, in the same way that a satanist accepts the premise of theism, that there is a God. That makes him a theist who hates God.
We both reject the state, but we are not coming from the same premise to reach our position. In the same way the atheist and the satanist both reject God, but are each coming from a different premise to reach their positions.
Just as atheists stand a much better chance of getting people to reject God than satanists do, so the advocates of voluntary government stand a much better chance of getting people to reject the state than anarchists do.
If I believe coercive rule is possible only through aggression how does that make me a statist?
Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society.
Proof?
See to me, voluntary interaction and exchange of goods is what is needed for a civilized society.
Government, which I define as a group of individuals using coercive force to rule over other individuals, is exactly the anti-thesis of civilized society.
I vote for the unwashed masses to kill the intellectuals.
Proof?
Currently with our coercive governments, (the "state" for those who want to not sully the word "government"), you don't have that choice unless you wish to expatriate yourself from the country.
So yes, centralization of leadership (amongst the one or many) is required. The real question is, "does that centralization of leadership have to be forced, or will human beings recognize it's 'survival/efficiency benefit' on their own and come to the conclusion naturally?"
Voluntary interaction and exchange of goods, except on the most primitive level, requires organizational management, i.e., government.
I probably should have posted this in "Hijack-Free Zone" instead of "Photoshops", because this thread has turned into what NHFree would call "Endless Debate and Whining"...
It was supposed to be a discussion about symbolism, esthetics, and visual ideas, not Anarchy 101! :x
So if I use force in defense of myself, that is also coercive? Not all force is coercive.
Mark, all the examples you used for "voluntary" government are not government at all because they don't rule over anyone who doesn't choose to be a part of them. Government does not involve choice or it wouldn't be government.
Voluntary interaction and exchange of goods, except on the most primitive level, requires organizational management, i.e., government.
Private businesses are not governments. You keep defining any organization that has rules as government and that is just not true Mark no matter how many times you post it. Voluntary interaction and exchange of goods just require individuals or groups of individuals to accept on agreements between each other. They don't need a coercive group of individuals setting laws over their behavior in order to do so.
I probably should have posted this in "Hijack-Free Zone" instead of "Photoshops", because this thread has turned into what NHFree would call "Endless Debate and Whining"...
It was supposed to be a discussion about symbolism, esthetics, and visual ideas, not Anarchy 101! :x
Out of respect to Alex, perhaps we should continue this on another thread? He really wants to talk about his flag, and I think "I'd burn it" wasn't the constructive critique he was looking for.
My point is that promoting anarchism isn't constructive for liberty. It's offensive, irrational and it destroys our credibility in the eyes of all reasonable people. Leave anarchy for the commies with whom it belongs.
:| Sorry Alex, I tried.QuoteMy point is that promoting anarchism isn't constructive for liberty. It's offensive, irrational and it destroys our credibility in the eyes of all reasonable people. Leave anarchy for the commies with whom it belongs.
Maybe, Mark, but he's already stated that he isn't interested in that; he want's ideas for a flag that's representational of how he perceives Liberty. Maybe his view of Liberty doesn't coincide with yours, does that make it okay for us to take his toys (this thread), flash them around and then stamp on them, "because we don't like the words he's using?"
Your ideas are interesting, and the semantics discussion begins anew, but let's not be jerks about it and let Alex play with his own things by himself or with those who want to play his game with him.
Hanging one in front of your house instead of the American flag keeps Jehovah's Witnesses and other pests away.
The JW's knocked on the door this morning handing out some kind of Jesus fest flyer. Fuckers.
What, nobody likes my flag version?
I always preferred hands shaking. . . not to show cooperation really, but to show the 'deal'. . . a transaction.
Please don't get me wrong. I like reading Alex's posts and I wouldn't stop him, even if there was a way for me to do so, but, apparently, he would stop me from expressing my disgust with the whole idea of an anarchist flag, if he could do so.emphasis mine.
| (http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/AnarchoCapitalistFlag1.png) Subtle Watermark Version | (http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/AnarchoCapitalistFlag2.png) Top-Left Corner Detail |
The JW's knocked on the door this morning handing out some kind of Jesus fest flyer. Fuckers.
Are you going?
I don't like the blue with gold and black. . . but it's your flag. . .
I always preferred hands shaking. . . not to show cooperation really, but to show the 'deal'. . . a transaction.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. . . in my opinion the confederate flag is something that always catches my eye for it's graphic design. I tend to prefer "jack" type ensigns like the Union Jack and the Jamaican flag. I desire symmetry. I always always loved the confederate jack (not particularly the stars and bars as its predecessor).
Perhaps a confederate flag incorporating the black and gold, with a symbol in the middle. . . god I wish I still had my photoshop CD so I could reinstall it.
confederate jack
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:4vgTLYxAamkW_M:http://unitedstatesamericanflags.com/images/battle_flag_800x600.gif)
confederate flag
(http://www.fotw.net/images/u/us-csa7.gif)
an iraqi version hehe
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:oQqkSg-WLG4nuM:http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/iraq-rebel.png)
"I'm bringin' it back" --Clerks 2
spread the word, stars and bars represent rebellion. Like some southerners say "heritage not hate" -- thankfully I can show you "Dukes of Hazzard" the movie -- which had a scene portraying the assumptions of racism on the part of some people. Knowing the characters you would come to understand that they are anything but racist. It didn't matter to them. When spoken harshly to by black citizens driving by their vehicle (the General Lee) with rebel flag on top. . . the viewer saw that some symbols can be misconstrued.
as a child, I was never taught that the stars and bars represented racism, hate, or slavery. By my government indoctrination it was a symbol for a group of people that would DARE to take themselves out of the United States system, and how the good guys stopped them from breaking up the SACRED UNION. Later on it represented to me the ability to secede from a United States that I more and more began to dislike.
It's distressing growing up a 'patriotic' citizen, only to have more and more examples of things I thought were wrong. It's surely not easy waving an American flag as an Eagle Scout when I continued educating myself in history, much more than you get in public schools.
I agree, the confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hate to some Americans. . . and then some other people "get it"
There is a typical bisected flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_symbolism#Bisected_flags_and_stars) design that's used in anarchist symbolism: the bottom-right triangle is always black, and in the case of Anarcho-Capitalism the top-left portion is usually gold or yellow. A decentralized movement can never have any official symbols, but that color combination does seem to be pretty popular. The flag design looks a bit incomplete though, but that's probably how it should be - it's just a template for individual people to customize, and there's a lot of room to add something.
I tried to come up with something simple that can be put in the top-left (yellow) corner to symbolize my views, which come close to Objectivism but not entirely. What I ended up with can be seen in my current avatar.
[The gears symbolize mankind's capacity to create useful things. The fact that they interlock but if you look closely don't really touch symbolizes individualism, and how individuals can deal with each-other on voluntary basis through capitalism, exchanging value for value. The horizontal positioning of the gears, in contrast to the bisecting slash below, creates a subtle illusion of a smirking face in gear-rimmed glasses, or a pair of hairy testicles (i.e. "balls of steel"), but that would be analyzing things too far. The left gear contains a little symbol of a bolt of lighting, symbolizing the feminine - inspiration, beauty that needs to be tamed, and fertility. The right gear contains a light-bulb (similar to the cover of Ayn Rand's "Anthem"), symbolizing the masculine - ideas, enlightenment, results, utility. They combine to turn raw power that exists in its potential form into things that make life better.]
So the theme of this thread is: what would YOU add to YOUR personal version of that flag, working within the established color scheme and template?EDIT: for when I change my avatar later:
(http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/AnarchoCapitalistFlag1.png)
Subtle Watermark Version(http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/AnarchoCapitalistFlag2.png)
Top-Left Corner Detail
| (http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/cygnus-avatar.png) | (http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/cygnus-avatar-mod.png) | (http://www.alexlibman.com/__imagebucket/cygnus-avatar-mod2.png) |
now that's what I'm talkin about Alex. . . . those designs are sick and exactly what I was hoping for out of this
I vote for the unwashed masses to kill the intellectuals.
We have a true anarchist here!
So the theme of this thread is: what would YOU add to YOUR personal version of that flag, working within the established color scheme and template?
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Hydra_Graphics/vig/flag/vi_vi_flag_300x200.png)
[SNIP]
That makes you a statist who hates the state, in the same way that a satanist accepts the premise of theism, that there is a God. That makes him a theist who hates God.
We both reject the state, but we are not coming from the same premise to reach our position. In the same way the atheist and the satanist both reject God, but are each coming from a different premise to reach their positions.
Just as atheists stand a much better chance of getting people to reject God than satanists do, so the advocates of voluntary government stand a much better chance of getting people to reject the state than anarchists do.
That makes you a statist who hates the state, in the same way that a satanist accepts the premise of theism, that there is a God. That makes him a theist who hates God.
We both reject the state, but we are not coming from the same premise to reach our position. In the same way the atheist and the satanist both reject God, but are each coming from a different premise to reach their positions.
Just as atheists stand a much better chance of getting people to reject God than satanists do, so the advocates of voluntary government stand a much better chance of getting people to reject the state than anarchists do.
It doesn't seem like you know much about anarchism or satanism. Satanists are nontheists and don't believe in or hate God. How can you hate something that you don't believe in?
My alliance flies this in Cyber Nations:-Nice one.
Vigilia Pretium Libertatis!
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/Hydra_Graphics/vig/flag/vi_vi_flag_300x200.png)
you may have seen the plainer version that was just an altered colored virginia battle flag.. also had a square version of it...
but people started using it for themselves on the nets so i added all the other imagery
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n314/thorsmitersaw/n508085912_960140_7975.jpg)
seagreen is for classical liberalism, the larger single star in the middle is for individualism, the snake is from teh gadsden flag... and all that represents... the print pattern on yellow is for industrialization and the wealth and prosperity that is created through free interaction in the market place and all other areas of life. The battle flag itself represents my home, my sympathies for the south in teh civil war, my support of secession to the point of the individual man, and the general defiance it has come to represent.
I should probably add an A3 somehow.
I fully believe that no two market anarchist flags ought to be the same. We are individualists. Our flags should not be uniform. Share the yellow and black? probably. But look the same? hell no.
What the fuck would an anarcho-capitalist want a flag for?
What the fuck would an anarcho-capitalist want a flag for?
[...] The dove shaped bird with a gun represents the peace that comes from firearm freedom. [...] |
What the fuck would an anarcho-capitalist want a flag for? |
I like the snake on the M16 design, and besides, who doesn't love Steel Reserve?
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7361/flagi.jpg) (http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7361/flagi.jpg) |
[...] that the dollar represents property [...] |
[...] space represents the only place where anarcho-capitalism could in fact flourish |
Very interesting. A few random thoughts:
I like the symbolism of peace, and I understand the intended use of the 阴阳 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang) symbol, but the whole image could be misinterpreted to mean "mixed economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy)" (which is an even greater enemy of liberty than totalitarian collectivism, which rejects capitalism outright and is thus weak and dysfunctional). Someone would look at it and say: "capitalism balanced by altruism through government regulations" ... :x
Maybe we need a peace symbol of our own? How about a peace pipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_pipe)? :lol:
I just wish there was a symbol for value that wasn't tied to nationalism (i.e. the U.S. dollar sign). Maybe we could try to broaden the popularity of the "seven dots in circle" symbol used in the ISIL flash (http://www.isil.org/resources/philosophy-of-liberty-index.html)?
I agree that space is what holds the most promise in the long term (and don't think we won't nudge this stupid little planet toward or away from the sun for a while if you don't leave us alone, socialist moochers!)... but... saying that it's the "the only place" for AnCap is defeatist. Our enemies will use that against us: "you're still here on earth, so your butt is ours". Never yield an inch!
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8677/libertarianism2.gif) |
I love the three symbols on the right, but the skull doesn't look good in the center. Maybe I'd put those symbols in the top left (black on gold), arranging them in a triangle to represent that each has a relationship to the other two ("life" in the very corner, "liberty" to the right of it, and "property" below "life"). And then I'd put the skull (one symbol sized to balance the other three) in the bottom right corner (gold on black) to tell people what happens when you try to take life / liberty / property away. (What's Latin for "live free or die"? And why are we using Latin again?) I'd put the text tilted along the line in the center, "Life, Liberty, Property" on top (black on gold), and "Live Free Or Die" (both in English) just below that line (gold on black), possibly up-side-down like a reflection - then you could fly it black side up in times of distress. Maybe drop a little shadow (silver?) from text / symbols toward the diving line.
Yeah, I totally came up with that idea.
Then I slayed a dragon and defeated an army of Jew-bots... and I'm totally not fat! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishsticks_(South_Park)) :lol:
(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3517/asatruanarchy.jpg) |
Anarchy sucks. Anarcho-Capitalism is completely different.I noticed.
You want a one-color flag, make it solid gold.Gold says one thing. Black says many.
... like that you're a goth / emo kid with authority issues?No, that I kick ass.
Awesome. Although I would have made the businessman yellow. I dig it, even if it may not be entirely serious.
I like the general idea, anarchir. The implementation could be better (i.e. pixelation), but who cares. Here are a few other nitpicks I can offer:So far as pixelation goes, I'm not trying to sell it. If someone fixed it, that'd be awesome.
In my interpretation, it shows the three sectors of the economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition): the service sector (businessman), the industry (gear & ranch), and the "natural sector" (cowboy). Each sector is idealized by its greatest representatives: the businessman represents worker independence (i.e. owning your "means of production" and working for yourself), the gear & ranch represents robotization (human beings shouldn't be doing the dirty work by hand), and the cowboy represents independence over nature (i.e. being in control of your local food supply, good stewardship of private property, as well as the capacity for self-defense). I'd like to think that the cowboy and the businessman are the same guy: day job vs weekend hobby.
The center needs some rethinking, because it's all in the gold (capitalist) portion, as if the cowboy is doing all the industrial work and the businessman is "exploiting" him. I'd put the gear & ranch in the very center, spanning both colors.
The representation of industry is also a bit outdated, how about adding something like a microchip, the nuclear symbol, and/or a DNA helix as well?It is dated for a reason. The image of the wrench/gear is taken from a commonly edited leftist-anarchist flier and has typically represented in history something along these lines:
I have mixed feelings about one side being upside-down, because it creates symbolical asymmetry, since flying a flag upside-down is a sign of distress - some might think the businessman is shown to be the bad guy. Of course there are no rules on how the black'n'gold symbolism is to be presented, on a hanging cloth or on a billboard that rotates like a propeller.
Also, it's traditional to have good guys face the center of the picture - my mom was working for a small college newspaper in the Soviet Union once, and they almost got into a big heap of trouble for putting Lenin's silhouette facing the edge of the page, as if instead of approvingly overlooking the page he's turning away from it and staring into oblivion. :lol:I think my final edit ended up like that...yep, it did. The bigger version (made for a desktop background) is
So I'd move the cowboy and the businessman from the corners and put them on the same level as the gear & ranch, both right side up, facing each-other in friendship.
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4476/goldanarchy.jpg) |
(A) / Ⓐ reading a book - awesome!
I just wish there was something added to indicate rational understanding of natural rights, as per capitalism (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=30732.0) / propertarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propertarianism). Anarchy just by itself is something completely different.
Well, like laws of physics, they exist whether you "buy into" them or you don't. The basic idea is that certain social rulesets are necessary / ideal for civilization to flourish, including respect for individual rights. A society that routinely fails to punish theft and murder is very unlikely to make it past the hunter-gatherer stage of human development. The society that violates those rights the least has a competitive advantage over those that violate them more. What part of that escapes you?
Google image search for "anarcho capitalist flag."Sweet. We pwn google.
We rock.