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Author Topic: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?  (Read 61777 times)

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markuzick

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2008, 07:15:01 PM »

  Currently with our coercive governments, (the "state" for those who want to not sully the word "government"), you don't have that choice unless you wish to expatriate yourself from the country.

I would use the word monopolistic, rather than "coercive".

As I asked Porcupine earlier:


Is it possible that you misunderstand the meaning of "coercion"? Coercion means to use force or the threat of force to gain compliance. It's a morally neutral word, in that the morality of coercion depends upon whether it is used defensively or aggressively. Voluntary governments may use coercion only for defense against aggression.


Quote
So yes, centralization of leadership (amongst the one or many) is required.  The real question is, "does that centralization of leadership have to be forced, or will human beings recognize it's 'survival/efficiency benefit' on their own and come to the conclusion naturally?"

The free market institutions that do exist prove that people come to the conclusion naturally on the individual level, but, unfortunately, many of the same people don't understand why their behavior brings about spontaneous order. They can't see the bigger picture and the don't understand or agree with rational morality. 

It will require a good deal of education and enlightenment for most people, before they will be ready for liberty. If society, as a whole, begins to evolve toward moral and intellectual enlightenment, then the institutions of governance in society will evolve toward a more voluntary model.


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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Porcupine_in_MA

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2008, 07:17:08 PM »

Voluntary interaction and exchange of goods, except on the most primitive level, requires organizational management, i.e., government.

Private businesses are not governments. You keep defining any organization that has rules as government and that is just not true Mark no matter how many times you post it. Voluntary interaction and exchange of goods just require individuals or groups of individuals to accept on agreements between each other. They don't need a coercive group of individuals setting laws over their behavior in order to do so.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 10:26:58 PM by Porcupine_in_NH »
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Alex Libman

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2008, 07:21:57 PM »

I probably should have posted this in "Hijack-Free Zone" instead of "Photoshops", because this thread has turned into what NHFree would call "Endless Debate and Whining"...

It was supposed to be a discussion about symbolism, esthetics, and visual ideas, not Anarchy 101!  :x
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Porcupine_in_MA

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2008, 08:08:13 PM »

I probably should have posted this in "Hijack-Free Zone" instead of "Photoshops", because this thread has turned into what NHFree would call "Endless Debate and Whining"...

It was supposed to be a discussion about symbolism, esthetics, and visual ideas, not Anarchy 101!  :x

You are so right Alex.  8) Sorry to hijack your thread...
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markuzick

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2008, 10:09:59 PM »

So if I use force in defense of myself, that is also coercive? Not all force is coercive.

Coercion means to use force or the threat of force to gain compliance. So, no, while coercion always involves force, force is not always used for the purpose of coercion.

E.g., if you kill someone whose holding your kidnapped child, you are using defensive force, but not coercing him. If you threaten to kill him if he doesn't return your kidnapped child, then you are using the threat of force to coerce him defensively.

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Mark, all the examples you used for "voluntary" government are not government at all because they don't rule over anyone who doesn't choose to be a part of them. Government does not involve choice or it wouldn't be government.

That's just statist indoctrination.

Why should anyone believe that the only way to govern behavior is through aggressive means. If businesses and privately run organizations can govern themselves by means of consensual contracts, then why can't political agencies, dedicated to creating an orderly and peaceful social environment for their clients, conduct themselves in a principled, businesslike manner that is becoming of a legitimate enterprise operating within the competitive marketplace?
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

markuzick

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2008, 11:27:00 PM »

Voluntary interaction and exchange of goods, except on the most primitive level, requires organizational management, i.e., government.

Private businesses are not governments. You keep defining any organization that has rules as government and that is just not true Mark no matter how many times you post it. Voluntary interaction and exchange of goods just require individuals or groups of individuals to accept on agreements between each other. They don't need a coercive group of individuals setting laws over their behavior in order to do so.

The above is an example of what I mean when I say the the corruption of language leads to the corruption of thought.

People complain to me that I'm too concerned with semantics and that the system of voluntary government that I describe is the same as AN-CAP, yet here we have you, a self described AN-CAP, describing a society without any means of settling disputes without violence.

You hate the state, but your statist beliefs don't permit you to believe in voluntary government. You hope that without government that people will all magically get along.

Have you given any thought as to how are you can obey the NAP, yet still prohibit people from cooperating in the formation of political agencies that conform to the NAP?

If this is just all a misunderstanding and the real problem is not over whether there can be private social institutions for the purpose of dispute resolution, police agencies, security companies and defense agencies, but actually over the definition of government, then you can look the word up in the dictionary and you'll see that states are one among many types of government. Even if we limit ourselves to political forms of government, directly concerned with only broad issues of social order, you'll still see that the state is only one, very flawed, possibility.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

theCelestrian

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2008, 11:35:01 PM »

Out of respect to Alex, perhaps we should continue this on another thread?  He really wants to talk about his flag, and I think "I'd burn it" wasn't the constructive critique he was looking for.



EDIT:  We can discuss the Semantics Errata here if you'd like:  http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=20043.0
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 11:46:46 PM by theCelestrian »
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markuzick

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2008, 11:39:31 PM »

I probably should have posted this in "Hijack-Free Zone" instead of "Photoshops", because this thread has turned into what NHFree would call "Endless Debate and Whining"...

It was supposed to be a discussion about symbolism, esthetics, and visual ideas, not Anarchy 101!  :x

Then why not design a Nazi flag or a communist flag. They'd be less offensive. At least they give some lip service to law and order, although they do verge on total anarchism.

Libertarians should raise the flag of liberty and civilized order, not anarchy and chaos.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

markuzick

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2008, 11:46:11 PM »

Out of respect to Alex, perhaps we should continue this on another thread?  He really wants to talk about his flag, and I think "I'd burn it" wasn't the constructive critique he was looking for.

My point is that promoting anarchism isn't constructive for liberty. It's offensive, irrational and it destroys our credibility in the eyes of all reasonable people. Leave anarchy for the commies with whom it belongs.
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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

theCelestrian

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2008, 11:58:43 PM »

 :|  Sorry Alex, I tried.

Quote
My point is that promoting anarchism isn't constructive for liberty. It's offensive, irrational and it destroys our credibility in the eyes of all reasonable people. Leave anarchy for the commies with whom it belongs.

Maybe, Mark, but he's already stated that he isn't interested in that; he want's ideas for a flag that's representational of how he perceives Liberty.  Maybe his view of Liberty doesn't coincide with yours, does that make it okay for us to take his toys (this thread), flash them around and then stamp on them, "because we don't like the words he's using?"

Your ideas are interesting, and the semantics discussion begins anew, but let's not be jerks about it and let Alex play with his own things by himself or with those who want to play his game with him.



Alex:

You're flag is interesting, and while I appreciate the symbology you put into it, it just seems a bit "busy."  Too many things going on.  Gears, lightning bolts, more gears.... is there a way you consolidate these concepts into a central idea, that is centrally located on the flag in a simple, yet immediately recognizable way?

(examples would be like the "snake" or the "Jolly Roger".... immediate recognition because of simple iconographic depictions of the idea. Fanged snake = "Don't fuck with me." and Skull & Bones/Swords = "This ship is death, and we're gonna fuck with you!")


EDIT:  Alex, then just apply those comments about your flag to my "hypothetical" flag, even though I'm not an "an-cap." :), but that's been discussed before, both on air and off. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 05:54:56 AM by theCelestrian »
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markuzick

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2008, 12:29:49 AM »

:|  Sorry Alex, I tried.

Quote
My point is that promoting anarchism isn't constructive for liberty. It's offensive, irrational and it destroys our credibility in the eyes of all reasonable people. Leave anarchy for the commies with whom it belongs.

Maybe, Mark, but he's already stated that he isn't interested in that; he want's ideas for a flag that's representational of how he perceives Liberty.  Maybe his view of Liberty doesn't coincide with yours, does that make it okay for us to take his toys (this thread), flash them around and then stamp on them, "because we don't like the words he's using?"

Your ideas are interesting, and the semantics discussion begins anew, but let's not be jerks about it and let Alex play with his own things by himself or with those who want to play his game with him.

Please don't get me wrong. I like reading Alex's posts and I wouldn't stop him, even if there was a way for me to do so, but, apparently, he would stop me from expressing my disgust with the whole idea of an anarchist flag, if he could do so.

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As the state feeds off of the limitation and destruction of legitimate government, anarchy is its essence.

To claim "economic rent" from someone Else's labor when applied to land, which is something no one can own outright, is in itself, to claim landlord status over raw nature. It is an attempt at coercive monopoly power that is at the root of statism.

Alex Libman

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2008, 02:24:56 AM »

Well, this wasn't really to debate my extension of the Anarcho-Capitalist (aka libertarian) flag template, but to encourage people to create their own...
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Evil Muppet

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2008, 02:07:31 PM »

why would an anarchist need a flag? 
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Alex Libman

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2008, 04:42:10 PM »

Hanging one in front of your house instead of the American flag keeps Jehovah's Witnesses and other pests away.
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jimmed

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Re: What'd you add to *your* version of the Anarcho-Capitalist flag?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2008, 04:59:42 PM »

Hanging one in front of your house instead of the American flag keeps Jehovah's Witnesses and other pests away.

The JW's knocked on the door this morning handing out some kind of Jesus fest flyer. Fuckers.
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