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CaptainWhomp

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There are a huge number of federal and state gun control laws out there, as most of you know. However, most of the problems with gun control stem, in my view, from just a few acts of Congress on the federal level. (See below, abridged from http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa092699.htm)

Quote
1934
The National Firearms Act of 1934 regulating only fully automatic firearms like sub-machine guns is approved by Congress.

1938
The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 places the first limitations on selling ordinary firearms. Persons selling guns are required to obtain a Federal Firearms License, at an annual cost of $1, and to maintain records of the name and address of persons to whom firearms are sold. Gun sales to persons convicted of violent felonies were prohibited.

1968
The Gun Control Act of 1968 - "...was enacted for the purpose of keeping firearms out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them because of age, criminal background, or incompetence." -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms The Act regulates imported guns, expands the gun-dealer licensing and record keeping requirements, and places specific limitations on the sale of handguns. The list of persons banned from buying guns is expanded to include persons convicted of any non-business related felony, persons found to be mentally incompetent, and users of illegal drugs.

1994
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159) imposes a five-day waiting period on the purchase of a handgun and requires that local law enforcement agencies conduct background checks on purchasers of handguns.

Although all of these are bad for the right to keep and bear arms, are unconstitutional, and are generally against any libertarian notion of civil rights, civil liberties, and sovereign citizenship, there are two among these four which stand out to me as particularly egregious. Those are the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Why? Take a look at all the legislations and tell me what is particularly different about those two laws as opposed to the others. See it yet? Those two laws create a divide between those United States citizens who may own firearms (for whatever reason) and those who may not. They create a form of legalized discrimination against the "not allowed" group in favor of the "allowed" group. If this group division were between Latinos and everybody else (for example), everyone would be appalled. So what makes this form of discrimination okay, especially in light of the basic civil rights to self-defense that every citizen should be allowed to exercise?

Well, like many government mandates, the laws may be well-intentioned. They're trying to be preventative, but in doing so, they are depriving citizens of their basic rights and liberties. Every person has the right to defend themselves against violent attack, and yes, that even includes former felons. In fact, it can be argued that, since many felons live in poor neighborhoods with high crime rates, the need for these citizens to have access to self-defense weapons is all the more acute. I believe that every libertarian should be willing to fight for the basic human rights of even ex-felons.

Aside from only felons, however, the Gun Control Act of 1968 also creates other classes of "disallowed" people: 1.) people with a mental handicap or illness, or 2.) recreational drug users. Even if you agree that felons should be restricted from owning guns, how about these two groups of people? This legislation sticks out to me as the most discriminatory and anti-freedom gun legislation on the books. Furthermore, the terms "mental illness", "mental defective", and "mental incompetent" can be extremely subjective. Anorexia is classified as a mental illness, so is bipolar disorder and major depression. I doubt many of those diagnosed with a mental illness would be too happy about being called "incompetent", or seen as a threat to society. Further, more and more common, everyday issues in life are being called "mental illnesses" by doctors and medical academics all the time. Are we really to deny all of these people their basic 2nd Amendment rights? On what grounds?

On a personal note, I am also personally affected by this legislation. About 15 years ago, I was a patient at a mental hospital for about a month to work through some issues. I had major depression and other symptoms of mental illness. I definitely needed to seek help, and I got it at the hospital. I saw a psychiatrist for another several months after my hospital stay, and after that time both my doctor and I agreed that I was fine and needed no more medical attention. I haven't had any episodes or incidents since that time, but 15 years later, I am not eligible to own a firearm to protect my home. Considering the fact that my home was broken into last year and robbed while I was at work, I feel more than ever like a self-defense weapon is necessary. I consider the fact that I am unable to obtain one more than unfair. It's downright wrong. Is this America or not?

The reason I am writing this is not to tell you about my issues, but rather to try and understand why libertarianism is always so much on the defensive. We gripe and complain about new bills proposed in Congress and say, "Oh no! That will make things even worse!", and we oppose those current bills in hoping to stop them. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail, but that's the problem -- gradually, government always grows and nothing is repealed. Why do we allow this to continue? Why don't we take aim at past acts and legislations, and set poised to be on the *attack* for a change? Why do we always have to say "no" to the new, and forget about the real roots of the problem?

In the case of gun control, why aren't we unceasingly and unapologetically demanding the repeal of the four above federal gun control laws, and in particular the discriminatory Federal Firearms Act of 1938 and the Gun Control Act of 1968? Why are we so sheepish and complacent? I'm tired of always being on the defensive. It's time for us to rise up and start demanding our basic rights and liberties back. I'm willing to fight for it. We need political strategies to repeal. We need open dialogues about issues of real importance: Repealing old, bad laws based upon bad philosophies. We need to be talking about repealing federal gun control, repealing the New Deal, stopping the Drug War, ending the Fed, and just basically demanding our (real) lives as Americans back once again! Are we so shy and dejected that we cannot even fight for those freedoms which are rightfully ours? Why do we put up with this so much, for so many years?

Since when do we ask permission to be free? Since when do we accept "no" as an answer to that request?



« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 12:23:49 AM by CaptainWhomp »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2011, 01:55:21 AM »

Since when do we ask permission to be free? Since when do we accept "no" as an answer to that request?

Since we started voting, pretty much.
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alaric89

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2011, 08:08:57 AM »

Just a question to throw out there. If one believes that the statist will eventually truly turn rogue, isn't it stupid to own even one registered firearm?

John Shaw

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2011, 11:34:05 AM »

Just a question to throw out there. If one believes that the statist will eventually truly turn rogue, isn't it stupid to own even one registered firearm?

Nah. At least not in the U.S.

One half of the powers that be in the U.S. (All the Republicans, pretty much.) are pretty huge on gun rights.

There would have to be a major shift politically, and I mean MAJOR, in the U.S. , to start worrying about an overall campaign to confiscate or prosecute gun owners. Bush Sr. lost his second term by many accounts over the issue. Clinton caught so much shit over the 1994 AWB it's not even funny. When it sunsetted there was zero chance of it ever coming back the same way. How many laws that are designed to last ten years and be renewed EVER go away? Answer: Out of many thousands, ONLY the 1994 AWB.

There's 307 million (ish) people in the U.S.

There's estimated to be between 238 million and 276 million privately owned firearms.

First, imagine the paperwork with every state having their own gun laws, now imagine how well government manages paperwork.

Next - there is no national registry. (Officially, of course) Only state by state in most cases. (Unless you are talking NFA stamps, which only applies to full auto machine guns and shotguns with barrels under 18 inches and suppressors a bunch of other uncommon things.)

On the state level, sure, it might be a concern. Don't live in a state with precarious gun laws yo. The state I live in, there's no paperwork or legal issues with buying any sort of rifle. I once bought a shotgun from a cop out of the trunk of his cruiser for cash on hand and it was perfectly legal. There's no law against this. Any rifle not requiring an NFA stamp (A full auto, so we're talking anything from a .22 to a converted FN-FAL) is totally out of the loop. Cash on the barrel head yo. If you buy a rifle from a storefront, the store has to do an instant background check to see if you have a warrant, and document the sale to satisfy the dirty ATF but whatever.

Handguns are another story in Michigan. You used to have to file a "Safety inspection form" and take the gun to the police station and they sent you on your way. They dropped the pretense a couple years back because walking into a police station with a gun and saying "Oh hey lookit this!" makes them nervous. So now you just fill out the form and either mail it or drop it off with the po pos. If you have a concealed pistol license (Or CPL, the Michigan version of a CCW) you don't even need to do that. Just mail in the form.

If you get stopped by a cop? You don't need any sort of paperwork showing whther a gun is yours if you are carrying. You just need to show the CPL. They don't care who's gun it is, sorta.

That's just one state. Every state is radically different. There are charts showing which states are similar. Concealed reciprocity states.

Look at this fucking mess - http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html#concealed-carry-reciprocity

That's a fucking mess that gun owners should be happy to see in a way. The tangle of laws is actually in favor of dismissing national law worries.

Basically what I'm saying is there's nothing to be worried about (Yet) in the U.S.

The thing people should be worried about is the slow grindstone of hundreds of little laws, not some big sweeping event.  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:43:59 AM by John Shaw »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 11:42:32 AM »

I thought Michigan was pretty cool to allow Illinois residents to open carry in Michigan with an Illinois FOID card, even thought our own state wont allow us to.

Good on you guys!!

Indiana has a more childish stance on us Illinois folks........ "Hey, if youre not gonna let us conceal carry, we're not gonna let you"

i can sorta see where they are coming from though I guess, but still.
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John Shaw

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2011, 11:49:21 AM »

I thought Michigan was pretty cool to allow Illinois residents to open carry in Michigan with an Illinois FOID card, even thought our own state wont allow us to.

Good on you guys!!

Yeah, with one caveat.

You carry openly in Michigan (Anywhere but your own property, which is fine.) you're gonna get arrested or at least harassed for disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, or mopery.

Mopery is the best bullshit charge ever, BTW. Defined as “loitering while walking, or walking down the street with no clear destination or purpose”,
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:50:55 AM by John Shaw »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2011, 12:00:20 PM »

I thought Michigan was pretty cool to allow Illinois residents to open carry in Michigan with an Illinois FOID card, even thought our own state wont allow us to.

Good on you guys!!

Yeah, with one caveat.

You carry openly in Michigan (Anywhere but your own property, which is fine.) you're gonna get arrested or at least harassed for disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, or mopery.

Mopery is the best bullshit charge ever, BTW. Defined as “loitering while walking, or walking down the street with no clear destination or purpose”,


So basically you're saying that if I came to Michigan with a pistol, im fucked no matter what. If I open carry, I'll get messed with or harassed. If I conceal, thats an even bigger no-no.

OOPS!!!!

 Just this summer, I open carried on a camping/canoe trip near Traverse City for 3 days. We had bears around, so I woulda felt a bit naked without it. I had a copy of the law I kept in my wallet just incase. 

Guess I was just lucky I didn't encounter any LEO's.
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John Shaw

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2011, 12:05:29 PM »

So basically you're saying that if I came to Michigan with a pistol, im fucked no matter what. If I open carry, I'll get messed with or harassed. If I conceal, thats an even bigger no-no.

OOPS!!!!

 Just this summer, I open carried on a camping/canoe trip near Traverse City for 3 days. We had bears around, so I woulda felt a bit naked without it. I had a copy of the law I kept in my wallet just incase.  

Guess I was just lucky I didn't encounter any LEO's.

Well it's just vague. If you're out camping or anywhere outside of SE Michigan you're probably not gonna be harassed. Walk around anywhere South of Bay City or East of Lansing and you're gonna catch some shit. Basically they generally give you a hard time in suburban/urban areas.



Green areas are mostly low gun enforcement. 10 million people live in Michigan. Almost 8 million of them are in the white zone. So lemme modify my statement.

"Up North" is the wild west in Michigan. Worst you'll get is "Be careful with that thing." or "Keep it in your trunk."

But it's vague because most cops don't know, and if you know something a cop doesn't and you school them they don't thank you, they say "Mr Smart guy, huh? Well mister smart lawyer man..." etc. Cops generally don't like "knowledge" and they certainly don't like knowledge that they don't have.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 12:13:46 PM by John Shaw »
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MOE from between St. Joe's River and the railroad tracks

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2011, 12:11:12 PM »

Quote
There's estimated to be between 238 million and 276 million privately owned firearms.

There are probably that many firearms in the midwest.

John Shaw

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2011, 12:12:14 PM »

Quote
There's estimated to be between 238 million and 276 million privately owned firearms.

There are probably that many firearms in the midwest.

I'm sure you're right. But We're just assuming the official numbers for the sake of argument. Even the low number is huge.
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MOE from between St. Joe's River and the railroad tracks

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 12:29:38 PM »

Fo sho playboy!!!!!!  :shock:

CaptainWhomp

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2011, 01:17:22 PM »

The thing people should be worried about is the slow grindstone of hundreds of little laws, not some big sweeping event.  

Well I disagree with this conclusion, for the reasons I have put forth in the original message. I'll repeat that I am currently disallowed via the FBI from owning or possessing even a single .22 pistol peashooter in order to act as a self-defense weapon within my own home. No American deserves that kind of treatment, and especially one which hasn't done anything untoward like myself. And this is nothing to worry about?

I suppose I've always been a fighter. I don't understand the arguments of the big government apologists which seem to dismiss the heart of the all the real issues, which often stem from laws and edicts enacted much earlier last century, not today. The shock wave of big government started a long time ago, we're just now feeling the waves. My definition of freedom is a lot freer than the state of things in America today. Isn't that the point of the libertarian movement?

We need intricate, complex, and well-thought-out political strategies, not to hide our heads in the sand.

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John Shaw

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2011, 01:26:02 PM »

Well I disagree with this conclusion, for the reasons I have put forth in the original message. I'll repeat that I am currently disallowed via the FBI from owning or possessing even a single .22 pistol peashooter in order to act as a self-defense weapon within my own home. No American deserves that kind of treatment, and especially one which hasn't done anything untoward like myself. And this is nothing to worry about?

I suppose I've always been a fighter. I don't understand the arguments of the big government apologists which seem to dismiss the heart of the all the real issues, which often stem from laws and edicts enacted much earlier last century, not today. The shock wave of big government started a long time ago, we're just now feeling the waves. My definition of freedom is a lot freer than the state of things in America today. Isn't that the point of the libertarian movement?

We need intricate, complex, and well-thought-out political strategies, not to hide our heads in the sand.

Then get an illegal gun and face the possible consequences. And please don't call me a big government apologist again. You were talking about laws and the constitution. I'm a full on market anarchist yo. You appear to believe in way more government than I do. I've just seen what happens when the ATF comes in and kicks your pets to death and beats your wife into a miscarriage because you used a XXX to make your rifle fire continuously.

Take the risk if you feel the need.

And it's not about "Being a fighter" yo. It's not a fight people can win. You will lose. And by lose I mean get shot dead. Existing is better than not existing. They have more dudes. Period. So get one of those air guns or break the law.

Sorry about your situation in either case.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 01:28:21 PM by John Shaw »
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Turd Ferguson

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2011, 01:29:04 PM »


Well I disagree with this conclusion, for the reasons I have put forth in the original message. I'll repeat that I am currently disallowed via the FBI from owning or possessing even a single .22 pistol peashooter in order to act as a self-defense weapon within my own home. No American deserves that kind of treatment, and especially one which hasn't done anything untoward like myself. And this is nothing to worry about?






Seems to me you have two choices considering your circumstances.

1 - Sit around and wait for them to change the laws allowing you to be legal.

2 - Do it on the sly with the whole "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" thing in mind in respect to protecting yourself.

Not saying you should do either or...... just saying, thats about all you have to go with.
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CaptainWhomp

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Re: Gun Control and Ever-Increasing Government Prohibitions Over the Decades
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2011, 04:46:42 PM »

Seems to me you have two choices considering your circumstances.

1 - Sit around and wait for them to change the laws allowing you to be legal.

2 - Do it on the sly with the whole "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" thing in mind in respect to protecting yourself.

Not saying you should do either or...... just saying, thats about all you have to go with.

Or... Option 3... Change the system ourselves. Heck, do I have to do it alone? Where's the backbone from the libertarian movement?

They say it takes but one charismatic politician to change the tone and attitudes of Washington. Well, it's high time that this politician is on our side for a change. Or maybe it takes more than that, dozens of supporting politicians, thousands of letters to politicians and representatives, and key access to gun rights lobbyists. I don't know, but it's never impossible. This is the option that I'm trying to get everyone to see.

As for the civil disobedience, I'd much rather fight with all my power to legally possess, for example, my own MP5 or 9 MM than go under the table resulting in 100 SWAT team members pointing their own 100 MP5's/9 MM's at me to my one. That's suicide. Plus, IMHO, it would only hurt the gun rights movement to do that, not help it along, which I think is the pragmatic issue.

The trouble is that there's no one in Washington (except maybe Ron Paul) talking about repealing anything (except perhaps Obamacare, but again that's just because it's a recent event. Big whoop.). Even Ron hasn't said much about the Gun Control Act of 1968 recently, although he had a bill in the House for its repeal at every Congressional session for almost a decade.

I believe there is no legislation bigger than us. If we demand it's repeal with enough force, it will happen. We just can't continue to have these weak and defeated attitudes.



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