The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => Guns, Drugs, and Crazy Independence Stuff => Topic started by: CaptainWhomp on November 05, 2011, 12:17:20 AM
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There are a huge number of federal and state gun control laws out there, as most of you know. However, most of the problems with gun control stem, in my view, from just a few acts of Congress on the federal level. (See below, abridged from http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa092699.htm (http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa092699.htm))
1934
The National Firearms Act of 1934 regulating only fully automatic firearms like sub-machine guns is approved by Congress.
1938
The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 places the first limitations on selling ordinary firearms. Persons selling guns are required to obtain a Federal Firearms License, at an annual cost of $1, and to maintain records of the name and address of persons to whom firearms are sold. Gun sales to persons convicted of violent felonies were prohibited.
1968
The Gun Control Act of 1968 - "...was enacted for the purpose of keeping firearms out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them because of age, criminal background, or incompetence." -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms The Act regulates imported guns, expands the gun-dealer licensing and record keeping requirements, and places specific limitations on the sale of handguns. The list of persons banned from buying guns is expanded to include persons convicted of any non-business related felony, persons found to be mentally incompetent, and users of illegal drugs.
1994
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159) imposes a five-day waiting period on the purchase of a handgun and requires that local law enforcement agencies conduct background checks on purchasers of handguns.
Although all of these are bad for the right to keep and bear arms, are unconstitutional, and are generally against any libertarian notion of civil rights, civil liberties, and sovereign citizenship, there are two among these four which stand out to me as particularly egregious. Those are the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 and the Gun Control Act of 1968.
Why? Take a look at all the legislations and tell me what is particularly different about those two laws as opposed to the others. See it yet? Those two laws create a divide between those United States citizens who may own firearms (for whatever reason) and those who may not. They create a form of legalized discrimination against the "not allowed" group in favor of the "allowed" group. If this group division were between Latinos and everybody else (for example), everyone would be appalled. So what makes this form of discrimination okay, especially in light of the basic civil rights to self-defense that every citizen should be allowed to exercise?
Well, like many government mandates, the laws may be well-intentioned. They're trying to be preventative, but in doing so, they are depriving citizens of their basic rights and liberties. Every person has the right to defend themselves against violent attack, and yes, that even includes former felons. In fact, it can be argued that, since many felons live in poor neighborhoods with high crime rates, the need for these citizens to have access to self-defense weapons is all the more acute. I believe that every libertarian should be willing to fight for the basic human rights of even ex-felons.
Aside from only felons, however, the Gun Control Act of 1968 also creates other classes of "disallowed" people: 1.) people with a mental handicap or illness, or 2.) recreational drug users. Even if you agree that felons should be restricted from owning guns, how about these two groups of people? This legislation sticks out to me as the most discriminatory and anti-freedom gun legislation on the books. Furthermore, the terms "mental illness", "mental defective", and "mental incompetent" can be extremely subjective. Anorexia is classified as a mental illness, so is bipolar disorder and major depression. I doubt many of those diagnosed with a mental illness would be too happy about being called "incompetent", or seen as a threat to society. Further, more and more common, everyday issues in life are being called "mental illnesses" by doctors and medical academics all the time. Are we really to deny all of these people their basic 2nd Amendment rights? On what grounds?
On a personal note, I am also personally affected by this legislation. About 15 years ago, I was a patient at a mental hospital for about a month to work through some issues. I had major depression and other symptoms of mental illness. I definitely needed to seek help, and I got it at the hospital. I saw a psychiatrist for another several months after my hospital stay, and after that time both my doctor and I agreed that I was fine and needed no more medical attention. I haven't had any episodes or incidents since that time, but 15 years later, I am not eligible to own a firearm to protect my home. Considering the fact that my home was broken into last year and robbed while I was at work, I feel more than ever like a self-defense weapon is necessary. I consider the fact that I am unable to obtain one more than unfair. It's downright wrong. Is this America or not?
The reason I am writing this is not to tell you about my issues, but rather to try and understand why libertarianism is always so much on the defensive. We gripe and complain about new bills proposed in Congress and say, "Oh no! That will make things even worse!", and we oppose those current bills in hoping to stop them. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail, but that's the problem -- gradually, government always grows and nothing is repealed. Why do we allow this to continue? Why don't we take aim at past acts and legislations, and set poised to be on the *attack* for a change? Why do we always have to say "no" to the new, and forget about the real roots of the problem?
In the case of gun control, why aren't we unceasingly and unapologetically demanding the repeal of the four above federal gun control laws, and in particular the discriminatory Federal Firearms Act of 1938 and the Gun Control Act of 1968? Why are we so sheepish and complacent? I'm tired of always being on the defensive. It's time for us to rise up and start demanding our basic rights and liberties back. I'm willing to fight for it. We need political strategies to repeal. We need open dialogues about issues of real importance: Repealing old, bad laws based upon bad philosophies. We need to be talking about repealing federal gun control, repealing the New Deal, stopping the Drug War, ending the Fed, and just basically demanding our (real) lives as Americans back once again! Are we so shy and dejected that we cannot even fight for those freedoms which are rightfully ours? Why do we put up with this so much, for so many years?
Since when do we ask permission to be free? Since when do we accept "no" as an answer to that request?
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Since when do we ask permission to be free? Since when do we accept "no" as an answer to that request?
Since we started voting, pretty much.
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Just a question to throw out there. If one believes that the statist will eventually truly turn rogue, isn't it stupid to own even one registered firearm?
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Just a question to throw out there. If one believes that the statist will eventually truly turn rogue, isn't it stupid to own even one registered firearm?
Nah. At least not in the U.S.
One half of the powers that be in the U.S. (All the Republicans, pretty much.) are pretty huge on gun rights.
There would have to be a major shift politically, and I mean MAJOR, in the U.S. , to start worrying about an overall campaign to confiscate or prosecute gun owners. Bush Sr. lost his second term by many accounts over the issue. Clinton caught so much shit over the 1994 AWB it's not even funny. When it sunsetted there was zero chance of it ever coming back the same way. How many laws that are designed to last ten years and be renewed EVER go away? Answer: Out of many thousands, ONLY the 1994 AWB.
There's 307 million (ish) people in the U.S.
There's estimated to be between 238 million and 276 million privately owned firearms.
First, imagine the paperwork with every state having their own gun laws, now imagine how well government manages paperwork.
Next - there is no national registry. (Officially, of course) Only state by state in most cases. (Unless you are talking NFA stamps, which only applies to full auto machine guns and shotguns with barrels under 18 inches and suppressors a bunch of other uncommon things.)
On the state level, sure, it might be a concern. Don't live in a state with precarious gun laws yo. The state I live in, there's no paperwork or legal issues with buying any sort of rifle. I once bought a shotgun from a cop out of the trunk of his cruiser for cash on hand and it was perfectly legal. There's no law against this. Any rifle not requiring an NFA stamp (A full auto, so we're talking anything from a .22 to a converted FN-FAL) is totally out of the loop. Cash on the barrel head yo. If you buy a rifle from a storefront, the store has to do an instant background check to see if you have a warrant, and document the sale to satisfy the dirty ATF but whatever.
Handguns are another story in Michigan. You used to have to file a "Safety inspection form" and take the gun to the police station and they sent you on your way. They dropped the pretense a couple years back because walking into a police station with a gun and saying "Oh hey lookit this!" makes them nervous. So now you just fill out the form and either mail it or drop it off with the po pos. If you have a concealed pistol license (Or CPL, the Michigan version of a CCW) you don't even need to do that. Just mail in the form.
If you get stopped by a cop? You don't need any sort of paperwork showing whther a gun is yours if you are carrying. You just need to show the CPL. They don't care who's gun it is, sorta.
That's just one state. Every state is radically different. There are charts showing which states are similar. Concealed reciprocity states.
Look at this fucking mess - http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html#concealed-carry-reciprocity (http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html#concealed-carry-reciprocity)
That's a fucking mess that gun owners should be happy to see in a way. The tangle of laws is actually in favor of dismissing national law worries.
Basically what I'm saying is there's nothing to be worried about (Yet) in the U.S.
The thing people should be worried about is the slow grindstone of hundreds of little laws, not some big sweeping event.
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I thought Michigan was pretty cool to allow Illinois residents to open carry in Michigan with an Illinois FOID card, even thought our own state wont allow us to.
Good on you guys!!
Indiana has a more childish stance on us Illinois folks........ "Hey, if youre not gonna let us conceal carry, we're not gonna let you"
i can sorta see where they are coming from though I guess, but still.
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I thought Michigan was pretty cool to allow Illinois residents to open carry in Michigan with an Illinois FOID card, even thought our own state wont allow us to.
Good on you guys!!
Yeah, with one caveat.
You carry openly in Michigan (Anywhere but your own property, which is fine.) you're gonna get arrested or at least harassed for disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, or mopery.
Mopery is the best bullshit charge ever, BTW. Defined as “loitering while walking, or walking down the street with no clear destination or purpose”,
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I thought Michigan was pretty cool to allow Illinois residents to open carry in Michigan with an Illinois FOID card, even thought our own state wont allow us to.
Good on you guys!!
Yeah, with one caveat.
You carry openly in Michigan (Anywhere but your own property, which is fine.) you're gonna get arrested or at least harassed for disturbing the peace, disorderly conduct, or mopery.
Mopery is the best bullshit charge ever, BTW. Defined as “loitering while walking, or walking down the street with no clear destination or purpose”,
So basically you're saying that if I came to Michigan with a pistol, im fucked no matter what. If I open carry, I'll get messed with or harassed. If I conceal, thats an even bigger no-no.
OOPS!!!!
Just this summer, I open carried on a camping/canoe trip near Traverse City for 3 days. We had bears around, so I woulda felt a bit naked without it. I had a copy of the law I kept in my wallet just incase.
Guess I was just lucky I didn't encounter any LEO's.
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So basically you're saying that if I came to Michigan with a pistol, im fucked no matter what. If I open carry, I'll get messed with or harassed. If I conceal, thats an even bigger no-no.
OOPS!!!!
Just this summer, I open carried on a camping/canoe trip near Traverse City for 3 days. We had bears around, so I woulda felt a bit naked without it. I had a copy of the law I kept in my wallet just incase.
Guess I was just lucky I didn't encounter any LEO's.
Well it's just vague. If you're out camping or anywhere outside of SE Michigan you're probably not gonna be harassed. Walk around anywhere South of Bay City or East of Lansing and you're gonna catch some shit. Basically they generally give you a hard time in suburban/urban areas.
(http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbowman/birds/se_mich/locations/semi_map.gif)
Green areas are mostly low gun enforcement. 10 million people live in Michigan. Almost 8 million of them are in the white zone. So lemme modify my statement.
"Up North" is the wild west in Michigan. Worst you'll get is "Be careful with that thing." or "Keep it in your trunk."
But it's vague because most cops don't know, and if you know something a cop doesn't and you school them they don't thank you, they say "Mr Smart guy, huh? Well mister smart lawyer man..." etc. Cops generally don't like "knowledge" and they certainly don't like knowledge that they don't have.
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There's estimated to be between 238 million and 276 million privately owned firearms.
There are probably that many firearms in the midwest.
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There's estimated to be between 238 million and 276 million privately owned firearms.
There are probably that many firearms in the midwest.
I'm sure you're right. But We're just assuming the official numbers for the sake of argument. Even the low number is huge.
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Fo sho playboy!!!!!! :shock:
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The thing people should be worried about is the slow grindstone of hundreds of little laws, not some big sweeping event.
Well I disagree with this conclusion, for the reasons I have put forth in the original message. I'll repeat that I am currently disallowed via the FBI from owning or possessing even a single .22 pistol peashooter in order to act as a self-defense weapon within my own home. No American deserves that kind of treatment, and especially one which hasn't done anything untoward like myself. And this is nothing to worry about?
I suppose I've always been a fighter. I don't understand the arguments of the big government apologists which seem to dismiss the heart of the all the real issues, which often stem from laws and edicts enacted much earlier last century, not today. The shock wave of big government started a long time ago, we're just now feeling the waves. My definition of freedom is a lot freer than the state of things in America today. Isn't that the point of the libertarian movement?
We need intricate, complex, and well-thought-out political strategies, not to hide our heads in the sand.
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Well I disagree with this conclusion, for the reasons I have put forth in the original message. I'll repeat that I am currently disallowed via the FBI from owning or possessing even a single .22 pistol peashooter in order to act as a self-defense weapon within my own home. No American deserves that kind of treatment, and especially one which hasn't done anything untoward like myself. And this is nothing to worry about?
I suppose I've always been a fighter. I don't understand the arguments of the big government apologists which seem to dismiss the heart of the all the real issues, which often stem from laws and edicts enacted much earlier last century, not today. The shock wave of big government started a long time ago, we're just now feeling the waves. My definition of freedom is a lot freer than the state of things in America today. Isn't that the point of the libertarian movement?
We need intricate, complex, and well-thought-out political strategies, not to hide our heads in the sand.
Then get an illegal gun and face the possible consequences. And please don't call me a big government apologist again. You were talking about laws and the constitution. I'm a full on market anarchist yo. You appear to believe in way more government than I do. I've just seen what happens when the ATF comes in and kicks your pets to death and beats your wife into a miscarriage because you used a XXX to make your rifle fire continuously.
Take the risk if you feel the need.
And it's not about "Being a fighter" yo. It's not a fight people can win. You will lose. And by lose I mean get shot dead. Existing is better than not existing. They have more dudes. Period. So get one of those air guns or break the law.
Sorry about your situation in either case.
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Well I disagree with this conclusion, for the reasons I have put forth in the original message. I'll repeat that I am currently disallowed via the FBI from owning or possessing even a single .22 pistol peashooter in order to act as a self-defense weapon within my own home. No American deserves that kind of treatment, and especially one which hasn't done anything untoward like myself. And this is nothing to worry about?
Seems to me you have two choices considering your circumstances.
1 - Sit around and wait for them to change the laws allowing you to be legal.
2 - Do it on the sly with the whole "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" thing in mind in respect to protecting yourself.
Not saying you should do either or...... just saying, thats about all you have to go with.
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Seems to me you have two choices considering your circumstances.
1 - Sit around and wait for them to change the laws allowing you to be legal.
2 - Do it on the sly with the whole "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" thing in mind in respect to protecting yourself.
Not saying you should do either or...... just saying, thats about all you have to go with.
Or... Option 3... Change the system ourselves. Heck, do I have to do it alone? Where's the backbone from the libertarian movement?
They say it takes but one charismatic politician to change the tone and attitudes of Washington. Well, it's high time that this politician is on our side for a change. Or maybe it takes more than that, dozens of supporting politicians, thousands of letters to politicians and representatives, and key access to gun rights lobbyists. I don't know, but it's never impossible. This is the option that I'm trying to get everyone to see.
As for the civil disobedience, I'd much rather fight with all my power to legally possess, for example, my own MP5 or 9 MM than go under the table resulting in 100 SWAT team members pointing their own 100 MP5's/9 MM's at me to my one. That's suicide. Plus, IMHO, it would only hurt the gun rights movement to do that, not help it along, which I think is the pragmatic issue.
The trouble is that there's no one in Washington (except maybe Ron Paul) talking about repealing anything (except perhaps Obamacare, but again that's just because it's a recent event. Big whoop.). Even Ron hasn't said much about the Gun Control Act of 1968 recently, although he had a bill in the House for its repeal at every Congressional session for almost a decade.
I believe there is no legislation bigger than us. If we demand it's repeal with enough force, it will happen. We just can't continue to have these weak and defeated attitudes.
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Or... Option 3... Change the system ourselves. Heck, do I have to do it alone? Where's the backbone from the libertarian movement?
The problem is that there are very few people who love liberty in the U.S. Some of those people are moving to New Hampshire for the free state project to make some incremental changes to government and to live amongst like-minded people.
Outside of the FSP, I really don't know how successful any libertarianish or freedom-oriented movement is going to be. Hopefully I will be proven wrong!!! :lol:
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So what you're saying is that you want us to join up with the KKK so we can get them to lynch fewer black people, is that right?
I don't beg for my freedom with a hole punched piece of paper every few years.
No thanks.
You go vote. I'll be over here, actually being free.
PROTIP - Calling people names or implying cowardice for disagreeing with your methods is a not the sure fire way to win them over. That is the opposite of what is good.
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Or... Option 3... Change the system ourselves. Heck, do I have to do it alone? Where's the backbone from the libertarian movement?
The problem is that there are very few people who love liberty in the U.S. Some of those people are moving to New Hampshire for the free state project to make some incremental changes to government and to live amongst like-minded people.
Outside of the FSP, I really don't know how successful any libertarianish or freedom-oriented movement is going to be. Hopefully I will be proven wrong!!! :lol:
Yeah, I've considered moving to the Free State, but I've really found my dream job here, and I'm very hesitant to leave it. It's not something easily duplicated elsewhere. Also, I hate the cold. And I'm not so convinced that civil disobedience is the best course of action either. Sometimes it works, sometimes it backfires. I'm one of those who hasn't given up on repeal. It's just going to take an ample amount of supporters from different walks of life saying the right things, and not backing down at any point or settling for something less than repeal.
Maybe it's true that most of the liberty lovers are gone from the USA, but I don't think politics is necessarily controlled by the majority anyway. I think even the Occupy people, for completely different reasons, would agree on that point. The key is just to find out where the influences lie and then unceasingly lobby and demand. Even a small group should be able to do this.
Maybe someday I'll have the cash to buy a summer home in NH. But even NH is still under the federal jurisdiction, which is the main root of the problem, so I don't see how it's going to help much even if NH becomes completely libertarian.
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Then get an illegal gun and face the possible consequences.
End of thread. You can either do this or accept your slavery! Good luck! :D
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In case I've sounded insensitive I'll just follow up with this -
I'm not trying to bust your balls, CW.
It's just that if I go to the doctor and he tells me I have cancer, I don't tell him to get rid of 90% of it, and I don't tell him to leave just as much cancer as there was back in 1776. Cancer is bad. You get rid of it.
I have him cut it all out, then radiate the entire area.
Maybe eat some broccoli, too.
But if you think that voting will help, there are a lot of libertarian party types who totally agree with you. You certainly aren't alone.
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So what you're saying is that you want us to join up with the KKK so we can get them to lynch fewer black people, is that right?
I don't beg for my freedom with a hole punched piece of paper every few years.
No thanks.
You go vote. I'll be over here, actually being free.
PROTIP - Calling people names or implying cowardice for disagreeing with your methods is a not the sure fire way to win them over. That is the opposite of what is good.
I'm not going to dignify your first straw man comment by responding to it.
You are delusional if you think you are free now. Me, I'm actually willing to do something about not being free.
This is not about voting. It's lobbying, changing people's minds, meeting politicians at their office, blasting politicians with letters and e-mails, running for federal office ourselves, forming ever-more-powerful groups, and much more. It's actually engaging people on their own turf. These government people only respond to civil disobedience and violence with violence of their own, and in much higher quantities than any of us could dish out alone or even in our small groups. They only listen to what is written in the law -- so let's make those words loud and clear for freedom.
In short, there are years of HARD WORK involved in actually making real change. Dirty, uncomfortable, unpleasant work. Running and hiding is the opposite of doing the things which might actually change the country for the better. I'm sorry you feel that it is pointless, but that's exactly the point of view that I'm trying to change.
Thanks for your comment.
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Hey Captain,
I appreciate your post. What about just spreading the message of liberty to other people who will listen? Ya know, tell them that the government VIOLATES the non-aggression principle and therefore is infringing on common decency.
That's if you can get people away from the TV long enough to hold a meaningful conversation! :o
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Yeah, I think your methods are incorrect.
Raising your children without violence and ostracizing people who train their children to use violence will remove violence from society.
It is very hard work, yes. And it will take more than one generation.
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In case I've sounded insensitive I'll just follow up with this -
I'm not trying to bust your balls, CW.
It's just that if I go to the doctor and he tells me I have cancer, I don't tell him to get rid of 90% of it, and I don't tell him to leave just as much cancer as there was back in 1776. Cancer is bad. You get rid of it.
I have him cut it all out, then radiate the entire area.
Maybe eat some broccoli, too.
But if you think that voting will help, there are a lot of libertarian party types who totally agree with you. You certainly aren't alone.
Again, not about voting. My frustration comes from the fact that even within the liberty movement (and even within the LP itself), I don't see much work being done. I go to meetings and there is constant infighting, reading of minutes, bickering for an hour over the contents of a press release, and strict adherence to Robert's Rules of Order of all things. None of that actually gets anything done on the federal level.
Why can't we organize to attack with strategic intelligence? It's takes a lot more than just what we're doing either in NH or at LP meeting offices all over the country. We're just burning away our time. In short, I don't think anybody at any level is doing the right thing. Nobody is focused on the root of the tree, just the branches, as Mark said yesterday in the show. This is the original reason I posted this topic.
And don't worry about busting my balls. They are hard as a rock. I've been through far worse.
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Hey Captain,
I appreciate your post. What about just spreading the message of liberty to other people who will listen? Ya know, tell them that the government VIOLATES the non-aggression principle and therefore is infringing on common decency.
That's if you can get people away from the TV long enough to hold a meaningful conversatio! :o
I do try. I want to do more than just that.
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Or... Option 3... Change the system ourselves. Heck, do I have to do it alone? Where's the backbone from the libertarian movement?
Ok, you wanna try that......fine.
What will you do in the meantime, the way things are now?
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Ok, you wanna try that......fine.
What will you do in the meantime, the way things are now?
Just that:
It's lobbying, changing people's minds, meeting politicians at their office, blasting politicians with letters and e-mails, running for federal office ourselves, forming ever-more-powerful groups, and much more. It's actually engaging people on their own turf.
That's what I'll do in the meantime. I'd hope others would join me. I just can seem to find anyone in the liberty movement willing to get their hands dirty.
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No, I mean right now, today. What will you do to protect yourself, assuming you feel the need to protect yourself with a firearm they wont "allow" you to have?
Nevermind, dont tell me. I dont need to know.
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No, I mean right now, today. What will you do to protect yourself, assuming you feel the need to protect yourself with a firearm they wont "allow" you to have?
Nevermind, dont tell me. I dont need to know.
Right now I'm naked and crossing my fingers.
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http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679 (http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679)
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http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679 (http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679)
It's an excellent book; I've read it. Great man he was. I'm just not one to easily give up hope. I can't stand by while we live in an unfree world. Surely there are others like me. Where are they?
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http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679 (http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-Unfree-World/dp/0965603679)
It's an excellent book; I've read it. Great man he was. I'm just not one to easily give up hope. I can't stand by while we live in an unfree world. Surely there are others like me. Where are they?
Who knows.
Maybe most of em are out there already having gone through the stage you're in right now. Maybe they just gave up hope that the government can somehow simultaneously be big enough to protect your freedom, yet still be small enough to be kept under control and out of the hands of people who seek power for their own personal gain.
Seems to me that if you think about it long enough, thats the only conclusion you can come to.
Might sound like a bummer, I know, but no matter what way freedom for everyone comes about, like Shaw said, its not gonna happen overnight. Shitloads of education needs to be done and its gonna take years to do. All we can do is spread the ideas the best way we can to the people around us and eventually, hopefully reach a critical mass.