The Free Talk Live BBS
Free Talk Live => General => Topic started by: fatcat on October 10, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
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Not sure if the info I layed down in your thread is gonna get lost. By the time i typed what I had 8 people had posted so I'm gonna throw it up here aswell and add more to it as it goes
I'll try and have as much fact answers and as little filler as possible.
1000 U.S. dollars = 1,119.7 Swiss francs (CHF)
Switzerland GDP (PPP) per Capita = $41,264 - U.S. GDP per Capita = $43,444
Theres no minimum wage in Switzerland, the most recent data on average wage i could find was from 2001, and that was:
CHF 103,092 a year which is $92,062.9086
Although with modern inflation rates and exchange rates who knows what that now works out to.
Here are some average figures for wages for certain jobs (http://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Country=Switzerland/Salary)
I should state now, anyone intending to move to Switzerland either needs a good skill (doctor, dentist engineer etc), be planning to retire, or have a business with an annual turnover of more than 200,000 CHF. Starting a business is pretty much the easiest way to get residency.
Its by no means easy or cheap, but hey, freedom isn't free :)
Health care isn't socialized, however it is necessary to have insurance, which admittedly is shit, but for me it and the other few shit points aren't enough to outweigh the benefits compared to other options. I'll go into the insurance system more when i get the time.
Tax rates differ hugely across the country. Each Canton is far more independent in the taxes and laws it can set compared to US states. Zug, my Canton of choice, has the lowest taxes in switzerland, which is less than half of the highest taxed Canton.
Its hard to get a concrete number, as Swiss taxes are pretty diffuse and most of the information tends to be in German and in PDF form which makes it pretty fucking difficult to decypher.
Here's a PDF with Individual and Corporate income tax (http://www.zug.ch/behoerden/volkswirtschaftsdirektion/economic-promotion/economy-11/economy-12/intercantonal-tax-comparison/at_download/file)
For an Individual earning CHF 150,000 ($133,952.55), you will pay CHF 7825 ($6,987) to Zug, which is 5.1% and you will pay CHF 3007 ($2,685), which is 2%.
So total income tax for living in Zug is 7%. Putting this in more day to day numbers, $40,000 a year in zug would be taxed $2,800, thats both the state and federal taxes combined.
Compare this to the most heavily taxed Canton in (Neuenburg) 23,500 CHF + 3007 federal = 26,507 = 17% total income tax
The business end of the deal in Zug is equally low taxed, and the reason why the largest town in Zug has more businesses than people based their.
For a business with 2 million CHF in equity, and a net profit of 160,000 CHF, the tax is 11,000 state, and 11,000 federal.
Which is a combined tax percentage of 13.75%. I believe there is an even lower tax bracket for smaller companies, and a slightly higher 16% rate for even larger businesses, although i've been looking over so many numbers its hard to know which are still relevant and which include which other taxes so by all means crunch the numbers yourself and let me know if i fucked up.
there are other factors which I will compile, and I'm working on a PDF trying to get all this data + the important laws in shiny graphs and charts and shit which i'll throw up here when finished for those who are interested.
I'm going to post this now and come back and add more cause I've had about enough scanning through swiss tax sites for today.
Brasky, sorry I didn't get round to consumer prices and others, I'll finish them off next chance i get, and I'll rattle off the ones I know off the top of my head here.
for immigration, it takes 12 years to become naturalized, although any time you spend their under age 20 counts double.
If you got in on a marriage you get a permanent residency permit, which essentially means you can't be kicked out unless you break enough laws to piss of a bureaucrat. If you're in on a residency work permit, you can get kicked out as soon as you're unemployed for a certain number of weeks (cant remember from the top of my head). If you're in on retirement, you're pretty much in for life, but you have to move with a certain amount of money to get the retirement permit. If you're in on a business residency permit you're there for as long as you have a business.
Immigration guidelines for Europeans (http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/residency/eu/index.html)
Immigration guidelines for non Europeans (http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/immigration/programs/non.eu.html)
Some laws you probably won't be happy with :
concealed carry permits for handguns are pretty difficult to get
military service for swiss citizens is semi mandatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service#Switzerland) although it doesn't apply to immigrants to my knowledge, its not mandatory for women and you can get out of it on medical reasons / dismissals, only around 55-60% actually complete the training, and the whole thing is stretched out over a few days a month for a couple of years.
'Conscientious objectors can choose 390 days of community service instead of military service'
Medical insurance is mandatory (i think)
there are probably others that I'll add when i can remember t hem
on the plus side:
carrying a rifle is fine (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg/450px-Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg)
-Cannabis is completely decrim to own, grow (in industrial quantities), and sell (in shops) in 10 out of 26 cantons and rising.
Other drug use is largely tolerated, heroin addicts are given welfare heroin instead of jail time, not ideal, but better than paying for imprisonment, and the black market impacts are largely alleviated (http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/politics/internal_affairs/Ten_years_of_heroin_handouts_fixes_drug_crime.html?siteSect=1511&sid=4670650&cKey=1075213402000&ty=st)
-government hasn't invaded another country in 100+ years (this is what makes the military service tolerable for me, that and the fact that because of the militia system the government will probably never ban assault rifles)
-Prostitution legal
-Euthanasia legal
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I like some of the rights you mention there. This is definitely interesting for sure.
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Homeschooling is restricted in Zug.
http://www.cruxmove.com/SwissHomeSchooling.htm
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I think i want to move to Switzerland now
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I think i want to move to Switzerland now
I may be getting ahead of myself, and I havent researched to any serious degree - obviously... But all things being equal, you could enter that country and throw your passport in a garbage can and live peacefully off the grid for the remainder of your life. Your legal status would only become an issue if you were arrested or worked a job where you were required to declare taxes. Apply the methods of illegal citizens here to yourself, and think of them (you) living here (there). Its hardly what I'd consider impossible.
Indeed. I would assume having friends/family in Switzerland would make the whole thing alot easier.
The nature of the Swiss economy would make it hard to get jobs that weren't tax registered, and having no minimum wage drastically reduces the competitiveness of illegal immigrants.
I'm not sure if I mentioned already that marrying a Swiss citizen is pretty much a guaranteed pass (http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/immigration/marriage/your_rights.html)
Retiring if you're over 55 (http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/immigration/programs/retire/index.html) or Investing if you're under 55 (http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/immigration/programs/retire/investor.html) is also a good method if you have quite alot of cash but no business. You do need to have an annual income of $90,000, but on the plus side you can bring over your spouse and children without them having the same income, so if you are married, i imagine combining retirement funds & investments, then putting it in the name of one person could get you over on far less than $90,000.
If you happen to work for a large corporation, chances are they might be based in Zug for tax reasons, so its worth seeing if you could get a position there, as Swiss immigration usually want a reason for a company to hire out of the country.
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Thank goodness Ron Paul isn't in Switzerland to barb up them borders.
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concealed carry permits for handguns are pretty difficult to get
My understanding is that it is a "license to bear arms", not just CC handguns.
carrying a rifle is fine (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg/450px-Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg)
An uloaded rifle to and from the range?
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Maybe their schools are wicked smart.
What would that matter?
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We're talking about the legal methods. Its worth mentioning, you could buy a plane ticket and live there tomorrow if you stay under the radar. You only need a passport to enter.
I may be getting ahead of myself, and I havent researched to any serious degree - obviously... But all things being equal, you could enter that country and throw your passport in a garbage can and live peacefully off the grid for the remainder of your life. Your legal status would only become an issue if you were arrested or worked a job where you were required to declare taxes. Apply the methods of illegal citizens here to yourself, and think of them (you) living here (there). Its hardly what I'd consider impossible.
Why even bother using a passport to get in?
If you are willing to live underground, going underground in the country you have citizenship in becomes much more attractive, and less risky.
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We're talking about the legal methods. Its worth mentioning, you could buy a plane ticket and live there tomorrow if you stay under the radar. You only need a passport to enter.
I may be getting ahead of myself, and I havent researched to any serious degree - obviously... But all things being equal, you could enter that country and throw your passport in a garbage can and live peacefully off the grid for the remainder of your life. Your legal status would only become an issue if you were arrested or worked a job where you were required to declare taxes. Apply the methods of illegal citizens here to yourself, and think of them (you) living here (there). Its hardly what I'd consider impossible.
Why even bother using a passport to get in?
If you are willing to live underground, going underground in the country you have citizenship in becomes much more attractive, and less risky.
Because it would probably be difficult to travel from Switzerland to anywhere else, ever, if you can't show passage?
I'd much rather do it like the "terrorists". Travel to a neighboring coutry using a passport, then sneak into Switzerland. If I want to travel again, go back to the neighboring country, and travel from there.
But this is one of the reasons I like the idea of an island, or at least a country that has a coast line. I need a sail boat.
Living underground in the US is not attractive to me at all, because you can get snagged for so many things illegal that arrest is inevitable, statistically. If the illegal things were legal, they would have no reason to identify you during arrest, because there would be no arrest.
I don't see arrest as statistically inevitable. I guess it depends what you are doing, and where in the USA you are. The place I can blend in the best is in the USA. I would stick out in just about any other country.
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Seems like a lot of trouble to sneak somewhere and sneak back again, when you could come in legally and still sneak, but without the extra-sneakiness.
Underground is underground. If you got busted in a country you were stamped for, you could just claim to be a loafing, shiftless idiot. But if you got busted in a country when your last known stamp was for a neighboring country, theres a little bit more 'splainin to do, Lucy.
Is there a real good reason to do this, maybe I'm just not seeing the obvious.
I just don't want to leave a paper trail if I know I'm going to be breaking the rules.
Sailboat, I'm down with that. Its a major component of one of my master plans (I have several, each slightly ridiculous). Problem with sailboats is you need to know how to sail. Its not exactly cake. Sailing is some complicated shit. However, I apply the basic rule to it: A million people do it, I can too. When (if) buying a boat, be prepared to drop a grand on someone who knows sailing. Unless you have a competent sailing friend who will spend a few weeks teaching you everything he knows for free, of course.
Other bad thing about sailing (and boats in general) is pirates. You get into the blue water, you can actually get hijacked. Its really not uncommon in the Caribbean. This is why you'll occasionally see caravans of sailing boats, safety in numbers. Kinda like truckers will run in packs on highways. They don't know each other, they just gang up on a run. You can get scoped from wayyyy the fuck out when sailing, followed for many hours or a few days. Boats are expensive, fetch a nice paycheck, and sail a long way from where they were grabbed.
I don't think I would worry very much about being hijacked. Sure it could happen. I wouldn't have the nicest boat around. I would want it to be seaworthy, but I'm not looking to impress the guys at the yacht club.
My biggest fear about sailing, and living on a boat is the weather. It can turn from a beautiful day into a shit storm before you know what hit you.
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I'd much rather do it like the "terrorists". Travel to a neighboring coutry using a passport, then sneak into Switzerland. If I want to travel again, go back to the neighboring country, and travel from there.
But this is one of the reasons I like the idea of an island, or at least a country that has a coast line. I need a sail boat.
Other bad thing about sailing (and boats in general) is pirates. You get into the blue water, you can actually get hijacked. Its really not uncommon in the Caribbean. This is why you'll occasionally see caravans of sailing boats, safety in numbers. Kinda like truckers will run in packs on highways. They don't know each other, they just gang up on a run. You can get scoped from wayyyy the fuck out when sailing, followed for many hours or a few days. Boats are expensive, fetch a nice paycheck, and sail a long way from where they were grabbed.
If they take your boat, what do they do with you?
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they drive a fuckin Danzi up on your ass
A Donzi? The high speed boat?
They don't take American Express at the marina in Cunta Punta.
And this is what happened to the last guy that tried to use one:
(http://www.mikesmarina.info/images/443_DSC_4706.JPG)
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So fitting the profile of the nondescript guy with a banged up seaworthy craft is not exactly a great idea, since thats exactly what they're looking for.
Maybe I will start my own pirate crew. I wouldn't want to live on a boat alone.
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So fitting the profile of the nondescript guy with a banged up seaworthy craft is not exactly a great idea, since thats exactly what they're looking for.
Maybe I will start my own pirate crew. I wouldn't want to live on a boat alone.
But since you've got kids, it'd never work. They need a yard and stuff.
That's not what they told the Swiss Family Robinson.
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I wouldn't mind it. I already live alone, so its just trading one place for the other. What attracts me to it is you could be here one month, there the next, and so on. They say its pretty safe as long as you stick to the US coast. Theres lots of little spots down int he Keys, and all along the inside of the gulf. Just shouldn't stray down towards Haiti, Mexico, or Central and the various caribbian isles.
I wouldn't want to be sailing alone on a decent sized boat. Getting hurt or sick at sea would suck. I like the buddy system.
http://www.yachtpiracy.org/en/the_new_peril.htm
How many pirate attacks happen?
During the last years the number of attacks on yachts has dramatically increased. However, there are few reports about piracy in sailing magazines nor in reports of national cruising clubs like TO (Trans Ocean, Germany), SSCA (Seven Seas Cruising Association, USA) or OCC (Offshore Cruising Club, England). It is a kind of taboo which apparently doesn’t fit into the image of an intact world of bluewater sailors.
The number of yachts being attacked is unknown as is the number of yachts crossing the Seven Seas. Not many sailors believe in authorities being of help so they don’t bother to inform the Police or the Coast Guard. Other skippers and crew suffer from traumatic experiences and are not willing to talk about their encounter with pirates. In addition there is quite a number of yachts that have disappeared and nobody knows what has happened. The estimated number of unreported cases is believed to be high. I reckon that since 1996 the total number of yachts being attacked is approximately 300.
300 since 1996 sounds like a pretty small number to me.
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300 since 1996 sounds like a pretty small number to me.
Dude, thats like one every ten days. (Figuring it was written around a year ago).
My guess is I have a better chance of being robbed on the street, or shot by cops, or dying in a car accident.
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300 since 1996 sounds like a pretty small number to me.
Dude, thats like one every ten days. (Figuring it was written around a year ago).
My guess is I have a better chance of being robbed on the street, or shot by cops, or dying in a car accident.
Chances of being killed for a boat increase dramatically when you are not in Kansas.
From my understanding, most of the pirate attacks don't result in death. It also seems like many of them are done by someone invited onto the boat.
But you are right, it is mostly a localized threat. There are places to avoid.
But it even happens in the US.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27114432/
Former child actor admits killing couple for yacht
Tom and Jackie Hawks were tied to anchor and thrown overboard to deaths
For nearly four years, Ryan and Matt Hawks have felt certain that a former small-time child actor masterminded the vicious murder of their parents, who were tied to the anchor of their yacht and thrown to their deaths in the Pacific Ocean off Catalina Island.
The brothers sat in the TODAY studio in New York Friday with the show’s co-host, Meredith Vieira, and looked at photographs of their father, Tom Hawks, and stepmother, Jennifer Hawks, tanned and smiling aboard the “Well Deserved,” the 55-foot yacht they had saved a lifetime to buy.
Two days earlier, the attorney for Skylar Deleon, who once had a non-speaking bit part in “Mighty Morphin Power Rangers,” admitted in an Orange County, Calif., courtroom that Deleon was the mastermind of the plot to murder the Hawks and steal their yacht. The admission was made during opening arguments in the trial, which is no longer about whether Deleon did it, but what his sentence should be: death, or life behind bars.
Back to land
Tom Hawks had planned for most of his life to retire on a yacht with his second wife, Jackie. A body builder and probation officer, he realized his dream while still in his mid-50s.
After cruising the Pacific Ocean and the Sea of Cortez off Mexico for two years, the Hawks had decided to sell their boat to move back to Arizona, where they could be closer to their first grandson. Their sons, Matt and Ryan, looked forward to having them back home and sharing their lives with them.
“They realized there was more to life than this boat and seeing the curve of the earth, and that’s what really made them want to sell the boat and come back and be a part of our lives, and especially part of their grandson’s life,” Ryan Hawks told Vieira.
He last talked to his parents by phone on Nov. 14, 2004, the day they disappeared. “I was flying to Seattle for work,” Ryan Hawks said. “It was on the last voyage of ‘Well Deserved.’ I kind of pushed them off the phone; I was running late for a plane. I just felt bad. I had no idea that was the last time I’d talk to them.”
On that day, Tom, 57, and Jackie, 47, set sail for Catalina Island on a test cruise with Skylar Deleon and two other men, John Fitzgerald Kennedy and Alonso Machain. Deleon was a smooth-talking 29-year-old career criminal who bragged about being a former child television star who wanted to buy the boat. In reality, Deleon had had just one non-speaking bit part in 1994 on “Mighty Morphin Power Rangers,” and had been in trouble almost ever since. He introduced Kennedy and Machain as his accountants.
Thieves fall out
Machain admitted his role in 2005 and is awaiting sentencing. Kennedy is to be tried next year. The fourth member of the plot, Deleon’s former wife, Jennifer Henderson, was convicted of two counts of first-degree murder last year and will spend the rest of her life in prison.
When the Hawks never returned from the trip, Newport Beach police zeroed in on Deleon and his three accomplices, who claimed that the couple sold the yacht to them for $440,000. When one of the suspects confessed, the plot quickly unraveled and the gruesome details of the double homicide came out.
According to that confession, after overpowering the Hawks with a stun gun, the conspirators forced them to sign over title to the yacht. Then, duct-taped together and tied to an anchor, they were thrown into the ocean to drown. Their bodies were never recovered.
Now Ryan and Matt Hawks just want to see justice served on Deleon, who, according to his own lawyer, Gary Pohlson, also killed another man in 2003. Deleon committed that murder when he was on work furlough from a sentence he was serving for burglary.
Pohlson told the jury Tuesday that his purpose in admitting Deleon is guilty was to save his client from the death penalty.
Justice at last
Matt Hawks said when he heard Pohlson’s statement, “I was kind of relieved in a way, just [at] the thought that they’re admitting guilt. It’s been four years; it’s been a long time. I’m looking forward to this trial, and I’m sure the jurors will make the correct decision.”
“It did provide some closure,” added Ryan Hawks, who is putting off starting a full-time job so that he can attend Deleon’s trial. But, he pointed out, “It was just the opening arguments, and the jury can’t take that into consideration.”
Ryan Hawks said it isn’t easy being at the trial and hearing again about the murders. But, he told Vieira, “It’s important to us as a family, because this is the last thing we’ll ever get to do for our parents. And as much as it hurts, we just need to be there and represent them. We’re a true testament to our parents’ parenting, and we feel it’s necessary.”
Matt Hawks said the hardest part for him is thinking about what he and his two children are missing. “It’s just been very difficult,” he said. “I’m raising two beautiful children now. And I don’t have the grandparents so that they can share their lives with them. It’s just very hard not having them around to share the best part of our life, and the best part of our family’s life with them.”
Both brothers said their parents had talked about their plans to sell the yacht and move back home. The parents mentioned that the man who wanted to buy it was a former child star, but neither of the two sons had ever watched “Power Rangers,” so they weren’t especially impressed.
“I was just happy they were selling the boat and coming back to spend a lot more time with [their grandchildren],” Matt Hawks recalled. “They’d be much more grounded with my family. We’d be able to travel out to see them, as I was able to back when I didn’t have children.
“I was looking forward to them coming home.”
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Whenever I hear "Zug" I think of Zug Island. It's in Detroit.
Here's a pic.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/280805390_5a8e6602de.jpg)
It's not a particularly pleasant place.
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Thats not a pirate attack. That was murder, the motivator just happened to be a boat.
What have you been saying pirates do?
Steal your boat and murder you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy
Piracy is robbery committed at sea, or sometimes on shore, without a commission from a sovereign nation (as distinct from privateering, robbery with sovereign commission).
Sounds like piracy to me.
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Whenever I hear "Zug" I think of Zug Island. It's in Detroit.
Here's a pic.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/280805390_5a8e6602de.jpg)
It's not a particularly pleasant place.
Whenever I hear 'Zug' I think of orcs.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zug-zug
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There was a fairly well known radio guy/drug dealer when I was in high school called Zug Island Rick.
He was an asshole, as I recall.
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There was a fairly well known radio guy/drug dealer when I was in high school called Zug Island Rick.
He was an asshole, as I recall.
The majority of drug dealers are.
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Seems like a lot of trouble to sneak somewhere and sneak back again, when you could come in legally and still sneak, but without the extra-sneakiness.
Underground is underground. If you got busted in a country you were stamped for, you could just claim to be a loafing, shiftless idiot. But if you got busted in a country when your last known stamp was for a neighboring country, theres a little bit more 'splainin to do, Lucy.
Is there a real good reason to do this, maybe I'm just not seeing the obvious.
I just don't want to leave a paper trail if I know I'm going to be breaking the rules.
Sailboat, I'm down with that. Its a major component of one of my master plans (I have several, each slightly ridiculous). Problem with sailboats is you need to know how to sail. Its not exactly cake. Sailing is some complicated shit. However, I apply the basic rule to it: A million people do it, I can too. When (if) buying a boat, be prepared to drop a grand on someone who knows sailing. Unless you have a competent sailing friend who will spend a few weeks teaching you everything he knows for free, of course.
Other bad thing about sailing (and boats in general) is pirates. You get into the blue water, you can actually get hijacked. Its really not uncommon in the Caribbean. This is why you'll occasionally see caravans of sailing boats, safety in numbers. Kinda like truckers will run in packs on highways. They don't know each other, they just gang up on a run. You can get scoped from wayyyy the fuck out when sailing, followed for many hours or a few days. Boats are expensive, fetch a nice paycheck, and sail a long way from where they were grabbed.
I don't think I would worry very much about being hijacked. Sure it could happen. I wouldn't have the nicest boat around. I would want it to be seaworthy, but I'm not looking to impress the guys at the yacht club.
My biggest fear about sailing, and living on a boat is the weather. It can turn from a beautiful day into a shit storm before you know what hit you.
Bump'd