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Author Topic: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.  (Read 13933 times)

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2010, 11:23:03 AM »


I wouldn't say that's sufficient in certain cases. Is it morally permissible to be a racist so long as you do so 'voluntarily'?


Yes. Just as it is morally acceptable for those Midwesterners to treat their women the way they do. Those are their culture's morals. What would be immoral is for someone outside that society stand back and pass judgement on their behavior based upon standards of their own morals.

Then how do you justify NAP?
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BobRobertson

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2010, 12:19:14 PM »

Yes. Otherwise, I am forcing my morality on others.

Then it's not morality. More or less that means you would better fit in the camp of moral nihilist more so than moral subjectivist.

So your very DEFINITION of "morality" is what I force upon others?

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Two wrongs do not make a right. The ends do not justify the means.

I never said they did, but you seem to assume that is what I mean.

Look at the quote above. You specifically state that my NOT forcing other people to my view of morality means I do NOT have morality.

That's a double negative. They cancel. So you have explicitly stated that Morality, to you, is FORCE.

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Right now, that standard is whatever the man with the badge and gun says it is.

Then why doesn't it enforce the moral standard in most of the US that racist  slurs are bad and those that use them are low lifes?

You've missed 40 years of the FCC prosecuting racist slurs?

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Just because it's normal doesn't make it right, or just, or moral.

You never read my original post did you?

Yes, I did. What you fail to consider is that it made just as much sense as your asserting that the only morality is the one backed up by force, above.

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That is why I asked you, and ask again, who has the gun in your scenario? What function of society is provided through coercion?
Your question is false as it assumes only force can be used to maintain social institutions.

YOU are the one asserting that voluntary interaction CANNOT maintain social institutions.

I am asking you why, what institutions do you believe require force.

If that is a false question, then you are a VOLUNTARYIST by definition, since you do not believe force is required to support social institutions.

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Because if there isn't one, then you're a voluntaryist.
False conclusion as I recognize there are social institutions and states which are not voluntary (just as me being a human on a certain continent is not voluntary, it's merely fact).

So, again, which institutions, in your opinion, require coercion in order to maintain them?

You've stated that force exists. I agree. However, I do not believe force is _necessary_, and I am therefore a voluntaryist.

You either demonstrate what force you believe is necessary, or stop pretending to be something you're not.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

Cognitive Dissident

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2010, 01:57:00 PM »

The video's gone, but it was "Lucy: Teen Transexual" a story about a male teen who used socialized medicine for a sex change operation.  This is the thread to which I referred.

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=13120.0
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YixilTesiphon

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2010, 02:04:48 PM »

It is wrong to hurt people.

I agree. I think it's entirely permissible under NAP to use force to stop aggression against others, even if that's how that group says they want to live - it would be totally permissible to stop female genital mutilation, for example. FGM is aggression and it's the job of non-aggressors who are able to stop it to do so.
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davann

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2010, 02:47:43 PM »


I wouldn't say that's sufficient in certain cases. Is it morally permissible to be a racist so long as you do so 'voluntarily'?


Yes. Just as it is morally acceptable for those Midwesterners to treat their women the way they do. Those are their culture's morals. What would be immoral is for someone outside that society stand back and pass judgement on their behavior based upon standards of their own morals.

Then how do you justify NAP?

NAP is something I follow. So it follows that I can not initiate others to do as I do. One has to accept that others are going to behave differently than you do.

One also has to accept that maybe the most abhorrent thing, like genital mutilation, you can think of might be common practice by others. One also has to accept that you don’t know everything so there might be a very good reason why others are practicing genital mutilation. What would be wrong would be forcing your life philosophy, morals or societal practices upon people that don’t want to live that way.

The person that steps into Africa and starts snatching babies away from their mothers to “save” them from genital mutilation deserves what ever violence the tribe decides to dish out upon them. I would even join the tribe if I were there to witness it even though I find such a practice sick. I would also still be living within my own moral code of NAP.
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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2010, 02:56:13 PM »

It is wrong to hurt people.

I agree. I think it's entirely permissible under NAP to use force to stop aggression against others, even if that's how that group says they want to live - it would be totally permissible to stop female genital mutilation, for example. FGM is aggression and it's the job of non-aggressors who are able to stop it to do so.

So, the ongoing Afghanistan and Iraq and Palestine conflicts are justifiable then?
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YixilTesiphon

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2010, 03:19:38 PM »

It is wrong to hurt people.

I agree. I think it's entirely permissible under NAP to use force to stop aggression against others, even if that's how that group says they want to live - it would be totally permissible to stop female genital mutilation, for example. FGM is aggression and it's the job of non-aggressors who are able to stop it to do so.

So, the ongoing Afghanistan and Iraq and Palestine conflicts are justifiable then?

No, and I don't see the path from A to B.
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ForumTroll

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2010, 03:28:12 PM »

It is wrong to hurt people.

I agree. I think it's entirely permissible under NAP to use force to stop aggression against others, even if that's how that group says they want to live - it would be totally permissible to stop female genital mutilation, for example. FGM is aggression and it's the job of non-aggressors who are able to stop it to do so.

So, the ongoing Afghanistan and Iraq and Palestine conflicts are justifiable then?

No, and I don't see the path from A to B.

You are automatically presuming that people want to be rescued even if they don't say they do. So why isn't invading countries to stop these kind of aggressions permissible in your world view?
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BobRobertson

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2010, 05:03:16 PM »

It is not a violation of the NAP for someone who is against abortion to stand outside an abortion clinic offering anonymous adoption services and low-cost maternity care.

So long as the advocate is not blocking the entrance, I'm just fine with it. And I think if the anti-abortionists took their violence and vitriol out of their efforts, they could work together with the clinics to make sure that the customer knew they had options.

Persuasion is not force.

It would also help with the emotional problems some people associate with abortion, which I think is mostly emotional trauma from feeling trapped and hopeless.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820

davann

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2010, 05:36:55 PM »

It is not a violation of the NAP for someone who is against abortion to stand outside an abortion clinic offering anonymous adoption services and low-cost maternity care.

So long as the advocate is not blocking the entrance, I'm just fine with it. And I think if the anti-abortionists took their violence and vitriol out of their efforts, they could work together with the clinics to make sure that the customer knew they had options.

Persuasion is not force.

It would also help with the emotional problems some people associate with abortion, which I think is mostly emotional trauma from feeling trapped and hopeless.

Yes, that is the way to do things. Vitriol does not win. Persausion has a shot. Soft persausion has an even greater shot.
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YixilTesiphon

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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2010, 09:57:25 PM »

It is wrong to hurt people.

I agree. I think it's entirely permissible under NAP to use force to stop aggression against others, even if that's how that group says they want to live - it would be totally permissible to stop female genital mutilation, for example. FGM is aggression and it's the job of non-aggressors who are able to stop it to do so.

So, the ongoing Afghanistan and Iraq and Palestine conflicts are justifiable then?

No, and I don't see the path from A to B.

You are automatically presuming that people want to be rescued even if they don't say they do. So why isn't invading countries to stop these kind of aggressions permissible in your world view?

Good point, that becomes inconsistent on a large scale.
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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2010, 11:16:24 AM »

It is not a violation of the NAP for someone who is against abortion to stand outside an abortion clinic offering anonymous adoption services and low-cost maternity care.

So long as the advocate is not blocking the entrance, I'm just fine with it. And I think if the anti-abortionists took their violence and vitriol out of their efforts, they could work together with the clinics to make sure that the customer knew they had options.

Persuasion is not force.

It would also help with the emotional problems some people associate with abortion, which I think is mostly emotional trauma from feeling trapped and hopeless.

Would you say that a father kicking out a daughter who has had or will have an abortion constitutes coercion? If not, why? I'm just wanting to get a feel for your ideas on this.
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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2010, 11:22:41 AM »

NAP is something I follow. So it follows that I can not initiate others to do as I do. One has to accept that others are going to behave differently than you do.
But again, what is the logical justification for NAP? Consequential? Or something else? I tend to think NAP is a logically non-consequential statement of the fact that humans are beings of harmony. And despite all the assumed stories of conflicts, wars, and violence that humans are more often able to get along even if there is still unclarified issues.  What is important is that NAP by itself doesn't justify or impede the formation of other institutions, or that these institutions themselves are not given (default mode).

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One also has to accept that maybe the most abhorrent thing, like genital mutilation, you can think of might be common practice by others. One also has to accept that you don’t know everything so there might be a very good reason why others are practicing genital mutilation. What would be wrong would be forcing your life philosophy, morals or societal practices upon people that don’t want to live that way.

It's not so much a matter of forcing anything, but it is a matter of accepting such acts. If NAP is coupled to moral nihilism, then everything goes and NAP becomes self-refuting. But if NAP is coupled to a non-nihilist moral theory (probably moral realist in nature), then it can sustain itself and be part of a larger family of moral statements. This means that not only is NAP moral (and necessary to the human condition), but not all moral statements are predicated upon NAP. And that NAP and these other non-NAP predicated moral statements are predicated on some universal principle that ties them together. NAP by itself simply doesn't cut it, if you get what I'm saying.
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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2010, 02:22:36 PM »

NAP was stolen from F. Paul Wilson's fictional worlds of Tolive and Flint and the KYFHO religion in his universe.   :P

Of course its probably the other way around, but anyways NAP certainly should not be considered moral relativism nor nihilistic in nature, although it seems that some people believe that to be the case and the reason why they support it.
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Re: Why I am not a Voluntaryist.
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2010, 02:54:24 PM »

Would you say that a father kicking out a daughter who has had or will have an abortion constitutes coercion?

No. He is removing his consent.

Coercion would be if he literally "kicked". That's assault.

However, that has nothing to do with persuasion concerning abortion, so I wonder how you leaped from what I was saying to this idea of someone removing their consent because of an abortion.
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"I regret that I am now to die in the belief that the useless sacrifice of themselves by the generation of 1776 to acquire self-government and happiness to their country is to be thrown away by the unwise and unworthy passions of their sons, and that my only consolation is to be that I live not to weep over it."
-- Thomas Jefferson, April 26th 1820
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