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Author Topic: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty  (Read 4828 times)

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Sam Gunn (since nobody got Admiral Naismith)

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 10:52:02 PM »





Be selfless?  That is the opposite of what I suggest.  And you don't have an obligation to give random people with random problems your stuff.  I doubt even most communists think that.

I think we do. As people we do have an obligation to help one another.

Communists think the government is best to decide whom gets what, and I think it's up to the individual.
I also think that individuals have a moral obligation to help each other even though we may disagree on HOW to help.

I don't think anyone is saying that we shouldn't help one another exactly, but I do think that some of us would argue that a tough love approach can be more effective sometimes.
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davann

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 07:24:55 PM »

I think we do. As people we do have an obligation to help one another.


I have no obligation to help anyone and will resist any efforts attempting to make me do so. I hope this vernacular is a holdover from your days as a lefty. You'd be best served to rid yourself of this poison.

That said, I have no problems choosing to help others by my own free will.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2010, 07:59:00 PM »

I think we do. As people we do have an obligation to help one another.


I have no obligation to help anyone and will resist any efforts attempting to make me do so. I hope this vernacular is a holdover from your days as a lefty. You'd be best served to rid yourself of this poison.

That said, I have no problems choosing to help others by my own free will.


Don't be a douchebag. You as a human being have an ethical obligation to help others. I am not a lefty, you're just a fucktard. No one has to "make" you do anything because you should know who you are in relation to the rest of the world. You are going to resist efforts. What efforts? No one is going to point a gun to your head because no one has to.

I am not the one poisoned by selfishness here.
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davann

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2010, 01:56:54 PM »

I think we do. As people we do have an obligation to help one another.


I have no obligation to help anyone and will resist any efforts attempting to make me do so. I hope this vernacular is a holdover from your days as a lefty. You'd be best served to rid yourself of this poison.

That said, I have no problems choosing to help others by my own free will.


Don't be a douchebag. You as a human being have an ethical obligation to help others. I am not a lefty, you're just a fucktard. No one has to "make" you do anything because you should know who you are in relation to the rest of the world. You are going to resist efforts. What efforts? No one is going to point a gun to your head because no one has to.


1. I am not being a douche bag. Just offering some friendly advice. Tone does not translate well in writing.

2. The concept of ethical obligation is what started the progressives on their path. Do you really want to be using the same vocabulary and philosophy?

3. Stating that I have an "ethical obligation" is an effort to convince me I do, even if in a subtle way. I will resist this and all other types of efforts.

4. Neither of us know each other and we both made assumptions based on what each of us wrote. You use words and concepts commonly used by the left so I mistook your political beginnings as coming from the left. You mistook me for some one that is callous towards his fellow man.  Seems we were both wrong, unless of course that is where you started. Is it?
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2010, 02:30:11 PM »


1. I am not being a douche bag. Just offering some friendly advice. Tone does not translate well in writing.

2. The concept of ethical obligation is what started the progressives on their path. Do you really want to be using the same vocabulary and philosophy?

3. Stating that I have an "ethical obligation" is an effort to convince me I do, even if in a subtle way. I will resist this and all other types of efforts.

4. Neither of us know each other and we both made assumptions based on what each of us wrote. You use words and concepts commonly used by the left so I mistook your political beginnings as coming from the left. You mistook me for some one that is callous towards his fellow man.  Seems we were both wrong, unless of course that is where you started. Is it?


There is a world of difference between their philosophy and mine. They would say your obligation is a legal one. That you must give because its the law. I say rather that you have a social obligation to give, and would not enforce the obligation.

On your third point, you question the idea of being obligated morally to help others. I'll address this later today.

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davann

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2010, 02:38:28 PM »


1. I am not being a douche bag. Just offering some friendly advice. Tone does not translate well in writing.

2. The concept of ethical obligation is what started the progressives on their path. Do you really want to be using the same vocabulary and philosophy?

3. Stating that I have an "ethical obligation" is an effort to convince me I do, even if in a subtle way. I will resist this and all other types of efforts.

4. Neither of us know each other and we both made assumptions based on what each of us wrote. You use words and concepts commonly used by the left so I mistook your political beginnings as coming from the left. You mistook me for some one that is callous towards his fellow man.  Seems we were both wrong, unless of course that is where you started. Is it?


There is a world of difference between their philosophy and mine. They would say your obligation is a legal one. That you must give because its the law. I say rather that you have a social obligation to give, and would not enforce the obligation.

On your third point, you question the idea of being obligated morally to help others. I'll address this later today.



And I will resist it. For instance, I do not question... I know.  <--- tone of sentence is indignant and adversarial.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 02:44:03 PM by davann »
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2010, 06:59:02 PM »





There is a world of difference between their philosophy and mine. They would say your obligation is a legal one. That you must give because its the law. I say rather that you have a social obligation to give, and would not enforce the obligation.

On your third point, you question the idea of being obligated morally to help others. I'll address this later today.



And I will resist it. For instance, I do not question... I know.  <--- tone of sentence is indignant and adversarial.

So, you're watching two guys argue. You are the only person around. One pulls out a knife and stabs the other, before driving off. What you are telling me is that you don't think you have a social obligation to call an ambulance, is that right?
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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2010, 07:06:08 PM »

So, you're watching two guys argue. You are the only person around. One pulls out a knife and stabs the other, before driving off. What you are telling me is that you don't think you have a social obligation to call an ambulance, is that right?

Ooo ooo ooo.... I love this question.

  • Yes, your supposition is correct. - 'social obligations' sound an awful lot like social contracts - and obligations not made between mutually consenting, cognizant and informed individuals sounds to me like an invalid 'obligation,' right?

  • Moral obligations make it interesting - In your scenario above, I would feel obligated to call the ambulance because were the situation reversed, I would hope the other person would do the same.  However, this obligation is internally generated, not handed down from on moral mountain top high.

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davann

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2010, 07:39:11 PM »


So, you're watching two guys argue. You are the only person around. One pulls out a knife and stabs the other, before driving off. What you are telling me is that you don't think you have a social obligation to call an ambulance, is that right?

Yes, that is basically right. Although, my personal opinion on it is irrelevant.
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Diogenes The Cynic

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2010, 04:05:02 AM »


So, you're watching two guys argue. You are the only person around. One pulls out a knife and stabs the other, before driving off. What you are telling me is that you don't think you have a social obligation to call an ambulance, is that right?

Yes, that is basically right. Although, my personal opinion on it is irrelevant.

Well, I guess I have to attack this from a different angle then.

I don't think the right response is to make a law.

Telling you you are signed into a social contract means you cannot get out of it except by leaving society, and furthermore, you never formally agreed to it. So that angle is a no-go.

I also don't believe you should call because you would want others to do so if you were in that situation, because all you would have to say in response is "I am selfish". Its also an emotional appeal anyways.

You're probably not religious, so that angle doesn't work.

Even so, leaving a person to die when you can help is surely a moral evil.

That said there is something I can impose on you without your consent, and I have every right to do so, even if you don't like it. If I knew you personally and you shared with me this opinion, I have every right to discontinue association with you and there is nothing you could do about it. I imagine many others would feel the same way and this would lead to you either deciding to change, or become lonely.




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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 08:25:27 PM »

That said there is something I can impose on you without your consent, and I have every right to do so, even if you don't like it. If I knew you personally and you shared with me this opinion, I have every right to discontinue association with you and there is nothing you could do about it. I imagine many others would feel the same way and this would lead to you either deciding to change, or become lonely.

Maybe not.. he'd have a number of other people to freely associate with, myself included, who's opinion differs from yours. It's that simple- a difference of opinion, they're plentiful, welcome, or at least tolerated, in any progressive society.

No one has committed any "moral evil" by opting not to send money (of all things) to Haiti.

When was the last time Haiti sent donations to survivors of other disasters? When does it seem likely that they ever will be in a position to do so in the future? Does that make them morally evil also?
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blackie

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 08:31:30 PM »

When was the last time Haiti sent donations to survivors of other disasters? When does it seem likely that they ever will be in a position to do so in the future?
I'm sure people from Haiti do it all the time.
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theCelestrian

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Re: Why giving aid to Haiti will help and not "enable" poverty
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2010, 08:50:15 PM »

That said there is something I can impose on you without your consent, and I have every right to do so, even if you don't like it. If I knew you personally and you shared with me this opinion, I have every right to discontinue association with you and there is nothing you could do about it. I imagine many others would feel the same way and this would lead to you either deciding to change, or become lonely.

You could, because you chose to do this - but in the end this assumes 100% compliance with ostracization.  In the end all this would do is create a black market anyway - as someone would be willing to associate with the individual (personal or otherwise) either for the extra personal or economic gain it brings them.


I also don't believe you should call because you would want others to do so if you were in that situation, because all you would have to say in response is "I am selfish". Its also an emotional appeal anyways.

Not so sure if I agree - but I think this is a result of a difference of opinion of "where morality comes from."  If someone believes morality is something that starts within the individual whose foundation is built upon treating others in a manner you would wish yourself (or the person whom you care about/love/value most if not yourself) to be treated - that would then make this:

Quote
because all you would have to say in response is "I am selfish".

A non-sequitur.  Of course I'm selfish, and therefore it's in my best interest (and those people I care about) to show others the same level of compassion that I would like myself or my loved ones to receive because in the long term it's only positive.  I know you believe morality/ethics spawns from faith/religion, but then how does that explain the multitudes of atheists and otherwise "amoral" individuals following what looks by all accounts to be a "good Judeao-Christian type morality," which may include giving to charity and volunteering their time?
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